A PhD project exploring intersectionality through fan podcasts

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Episode 16 The Queer Paradise: Exploring Diverse Gender Identities in Speculative Worlds

Episode Resources:

1) Fan podcast – Pottercast: Sorting It Out With Jackson Bird

2) Fan podcast – Harry Potter and the Sacred Text: Community responses to J. K. Rowling’s transphobia

3) Fanzine – Harry Potter and the Problematic Author 

4) Fan podcast – Imaginary Worlds: Dumbledore’s Army

5) Fanzine – Tonk’s Tale

6) Article – Creator of ‘She-Ra and the Princesses of Power’ Noelle Stevenson and actor Jacob Tobia on season four’s radical inclusion

7) Article – Noelle Stevenson & Jacob Tobia talk bringing genderqueer awesomeness to ‘She-Ra’ Season 4

8) YouTube video – Aliens, Monsters and Faceless Demons: The Dehumanisation of Non-Binary People in the Media

 

Episode Transcript:

This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity. If you would prefer the original, unedited version, please let me know!

Left – Double Trouble from She-Ra and the Princesses of Power; Right – Janet from The Good Place

[Intro music]

Welcome to Marginally Fannish, a show where we aim an intersectional lens at some of our favourite media and their fandoms.

[Intro music]

My name is Parinita Shetty and you’re listening to the sixteenth episode of Marginally Fannish. In this episode, I talk to Tam Moules about different gender identities in science fiction and fantasy. We also discuss how fans learn to identify and question transphobic implications within their favourite media and grapple with transphobic creators of their favourite worlds.

Transphobia is often couched under language that ostensibly speaks of women’s empowerment but fundamentally excludes trans people. This reactionary and limited form of feminism can be seen in mainstream discourse as well as embedded in beloved media. Fan conversations help highlight and decode implicit bigotry in the texts. But what happens when fans imbibe messages of radical inclusivity and equality from their favourite books only to discover that the writer doesn’t live up to these ideals? We see fans either giving up on the media altogether or disowning its creator.

Due to an overall absence of gender nonconforming characters in SFF, trans and nonbinary fans frequently have to read themselves into cisgender characters. Fortunately, there is a small but increasing number of nonbinary and trans characters in media. This representation of diverse gender identities has a particularly important impact in mainstream children’s media. Creating worlds for kids where queerness is the default allows them to recognise themselves or learn about those who don’t mirror their own identities. Queer characters, cast and crew help create a supportive space for marginalised identities which, in turn, impacts which stories are told and how they’re told. When queerness is normalised in a fictional world, no one way feels like the default or the token. Many different ways of being emerge.

Find our conversation about all this and more in today’s episode.

Happy listening!

[Intro music]

Parinita: I’m so happy to have Tam Moules on the podcast today. Tam is currently a freelance academic with an MLitt in Fantasy Literature from the University of Glasgow. They have written and presented papers at various conferences and have published an essay with the Luna Press anthology A Shadow Within: Evil in Fantasy and Science Fiction. Their essay is called “I have done only what was necessary: An exploration of individual and structural evil in the works of N. K. Jemisin” if you wanted to look that up. Tam and I were studying for a master’s at the University of Glasgow at the same time though not for the same programme. I was there doing an M.Ed in Children’s Literature and Literacies. But as a book and fantasy nerd, I attended some of the lectures on the Fantasy course as well where Tam and I became friends. So today, we’re going to be talking about how different gender identities are represented in mainstream science fiction and fantasy media. And as much as we don’t want to be spending too much time on the transphobic elephant in the room, we’re going to have to unfortunately spend a little time talking about J. K. Rowling before quickly moving on to happier, queerer, more inclusive things. But before we begin with that, Tam, could you tell us a little more about your own experiences with our theme today?

Tam: Hello! About 2017 I realised I was non-binary. And coming to terms with that and existing within academia has been a very weird experience. [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs]

Tam: I think it’s good that we’re seeing more representation of that within media and so I’m quite excited to talk about that today.

Parinita: Yeah, for sure. I’m cisgender and heterosexual, so for me, it’s also something that I’m learning through media.

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: And through fandom specifically. Because in India, now I know some non-binary, gender nonconforming people.

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: But when I was growing up as a teenager, I didn’t really have any access to this. Even just gay people in general, I didn’t have any access to. And it was largely through fandom and largely through Harry Potter fandom actually that I encountered different people. When I was thirteen, I joined Mugglenet and just read a lot of fanfiction there. Which is why it’s so much more disappointing – okay right, let’s get it out of the way. Back in December, when I hadn’t launched the podcast yet but I was putting it together and approaching guests and fan podcasts, J. K. Rowling tweeted something in support of a transphobe – Maya Forester I think her name is? [it’s actually Maya Forstater]

Tam: Yeah something like that.

Parinita: Yeah. We don’t need to know.

Tam: [laughs]

Parinita: I don’t mind if I get her name wrong. J. K. Rowling’s own tweets were couched in transphobic language which, if you don’t know the debates and things happening in the background, you might not have seen anything wrong with that tweet.

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: So there are a bunch of people who decoded that, including one of the fan podcast episodes that we listened to. And she was then silent about it. Silent about all the critiques and all the outrage, right until June this year since when she’s been on this spree of transphobic tweeting. And it’s not even covert anymore.

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: J. K. Rowling is a TERF.

Tam: [laughs] Yeah, it’s been a bit weird the past few weeks. She’s suddenly gone full mask-off and is just saying the quiet part out loud as it were.

Parinita: [laughs] So for those who don’t know, TERF stands for trans-exclusionary radical feminist. So it’s a version of feminism which doesn’t include trans women or trans folks, like even trans men. For me, even as a cis, straight person, I don’t understand this idea of feminism that doesn’t include all women and all … actually anybody who’s marginalised. Because a non-binary person isn’t a part of the dominant culture; they don’t have privileges that cis people have for example, right?

Tam: Yeah. I mean it’s profoundly reactionary as a form of feminism. It’s inherently self-contradictory in a lot of ways. I don’t know if you read her “statement” about the whole thing but every single point she made was contradicted by a different point that she made effectively.

Parinita: I couldn’t bring myself to read it. As a researcher who’s including Harry Potter in my PhD project and as a Harry Potter fan – I’m still very attached to it because it played such an important role in my childhood

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: I can’t really untie that from my sense of self. I can absolutely untie J. K. Rowling though; how fandom has kicked her out of her own creation.

Tam: [laughs]

Parinita: Anyway, I couldn’t read that essay just because I know she’s spoken about domestic violence. And I have experience with domestic violence. I grew up in a house where my mum survived domestic violence. So when I heard the conversation around that I was like, okay I still need more distance because there’s too much going on in the world.

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: Right now there’s the pandemic, there’s the Black Lives Matter movement, there’s migrants just dying in India because of the pandemic and I can’t add this other thing to stress me out. It’s just so disappointing. The response to her transphobia from what I’ve seen – maybe it’s just because of the spaces that I’ve cultivated – but wherever I’ve encountered the responses to her tweets, it’s been very much in support of trans people. And divorcing J. K. Rowling from Harry Potter and reclaiming Harry Potter. There’s this Harry Potter fan podcast I listen to called The Gayly Prophet and one of the hosts there is trans and the other host is a queer person of colour – both American. And both of them said that, “We’re just going to reclaim it angrily for the fans.”

Tam: [laughs]

Parinita: And they launched this campaign called Make Harry Potter Gayer 2020.

Tam: [laughs]

Parinita: So they’re curating all this trans and non-binary and queer fiction and Harry Potter things and just fighting back against it. Because the thing is a lot of fans who grew up with Harry Potter read these messages of being inclusive in the books. And she’s not seeing that herself? Or it’s only applicable to a certain group of people and not everybody.

Tam: Yeah. In a lot of ways the fan response to it has been really positive and uplifting – seeing all these people saying essentially we don’t care what she has to say anymore. And I also think it’s an interesting test case in the sense that it’s one of the biggest fandoms online effectively disowning its own creator.

Parinita: Yeah. Were you a fan of Harry Potter growing up as well?

Tam: I was obsessed growing up, yeah.

Parinita: [laughs] I know that some people have had more of a difficulty in divorcing the creation from the creator. You know what I mean? For me, I can’t. I can’t let go of Harry Potter.

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: And in the resources that we looked at for this episode, a lot of the fans said the same thing. They had a real difficulty grappling with her hatred and bigotry but also being unable to let go. What has your experience been with this?

Tam: I think on a purely practical level, I have so many books to read. [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs] Yeah.

Tam: That not going back to Harry Potter is quite a straightforward decision. But I have copies that my grandparents gave me for birthday presents and things that I’m still sentimentally attached to.

Parinita: Yeah.

Tam: And I have good memories of rereading the series. I had a summer job in Germany once where basically I had nothing to do but read. And I ended up going through the whole series in like a week. And I still have good memories of that. But at the same time, it’s also interesting going back to it and seeing like … obviously when I was a kid, I didn’t necessarily notice the actual amount of bigotry that’s implicitly coded into the books.

Parinita: Yup. [laughs] Yup.

Tam: [laughs]

Parinita: I’m re-reading the books now just as background research to inform my conversations here on the podcast for the PhD. And I have re-read the books as an adult previously because I used to try and re-read the series annually.

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: I stopped that when I started doing my master’s because you don’t have time to read so much.

Tam: [laughs] Yeah.

Parinita: But even then, as an adult I wasn’t really able to think as critically as I do now. Just decoding the messages, because that’s something that I’m still learning through the internet actually and through fandom.

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: Where I’m learning to be able to critically analyse things and question things and question canon and question the creators. And fans are great for that. Especially Harry Potter fans. There’s this excellent podcast called Witch, Please, The Gayly Prophet does that as well – they apply an intersectional lens to Harry Potter. And oh my god reading it as an adult, it’s quite alarming. [laughs]

Tam: A lot of it is, yeah.

Parinita: I also wanted to talk about some of the more problematic elements in Harry Potter. As someone coming from India and we have our own social problems and social issues there. But currently in the UK, transphobia seems to be quite mainstream.

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: And it seems to be quite a loud part of – I mean maybe it’s a small group, but they seem to be really loud. I live in Leeds. And just recently, last week, the Leeds public library, they were going to … do you know the Drag Queen Story Hour?

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: So they were going to do that here. Just a virtual reading. And then it got attacked by this group on Mumsnet I think along with a Leeds city councillor who started calling it – they were very transphobic and were accusing it of all sorts of things. And they got it shut down. And luckily that has been picked up by lots of media channels after that. But it still happened. They still got it shut down. And especially during Pride Month, all these kids were excited about seeing their own identity represented. Because the books that she read included different identities. She did it anyway on another Facebook page but the fact that institutionally it was shut down because of an institutional TERF was very … ugh!

Tam: Obviously I’m not an expert but I think part of is that homophobia has become socially unacceptable even among a lot of conservatives.

Parinita: Hmm.

Tam: Not many of them are open about it anymore. But transphobia is still relatively normalised in a lot of ways. And the fact that the UK’s system for treating trans people in particular is horrendously badly run and underfunded and there’s multiple-year-long waiting lists which is part of the problem but also on purpose kind of.

Parinita: Yeah. And it’s also like J. K. Rowling’s tweet and a lot of the words and phrases that they use to couch the transphobia is so unknown.

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: First of all, they think that TERF is a slur. And they want to be called gender-critical feminists. When TERF is actually describing what they are, which is they exclude trans people in their feminism. So in Leeds last year, there was a transphobic march; it was a march full of transphobes who were marching against trans people or to protect lesbians in the LGBT umbrella. So Jack and I went for the anti-TERF protest – it was a march and a counter-protest.

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: And it was so ridiculous because at one point, when they were marching around, they were shouting things like, “Women don’t have penises!” at random bystanders.

Tam: [laughs]

Parinita: Who were like, “What? Was this a topic of debate?” Obviously they were very confused

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: Because if you don’t know the history and the background, it is confusing. The Pottercast episode that we listened to had some great resources about that. It was called Sorting It Out With Jackson Bird featuring a trans Harry Potter fan who’s played a big role in the fandom. And they were responding to J. K. Rowling’s transphobia and that had some really good resources to try and understand, unpacking this language a little bit and also presenting the context of it. Even though they’re in the US, they were talking about it from a UK perspective as well. But yeah, it just seems to be so uncomfortably mainstream in the UK and I don’t like it. I don’t like it at all.

Tam: Yeah. There’s a lot of talk of “reasonable concerns” because they end up using so much coded language that people end up taking it at face value basically.

Parinita: Yeah. You were telling me about what happened today with Stephen King. He retweeted something J. K. Rowling said, right?

Tam: She made this big, long thread complaining about stuff and then at the end of it she had like an Andrea Dworkin quote which was clipped out of context. And so he retweeted that quote out of context – removed from both its original context and from the context in which J. K. Rowling was using it – then replied to someone else saying, “Trans women are women.”  And J. K. Rowling’s unfollowed him over it. Which is quite funny.

Parinita: Yeah. And before that, when he retweeted her, I think she was so happy that she got some celebrity endorsement that she wrote this long tweet praising Stephen and was fangirlish about it and then she deleted that tweet as well as soon as he wrote trans women are women. And something similar happened in December as well. Because her tweet is couched in language that you wouldn’t find problematic if you didn’t know what was happening. Mark Hamill had retweeted or liked it as well. But he didn’t know the context; presumably neither did Stephen King today. So he was just trying to be supportive of women, I guess, not realising what she was saying. And then he did apologise. He was like I didn’t know what I was doing and this is not what I meant to do. It’s so easy to include people in that or trick people into supporting you when you’re trying to make it seem like you’re including and protecting women but you’re not actually. Or you’re only protecting a certain group of women.

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: And among these TERFs, I don’t even know how many other intersectional identities there are. Not just in terms of gender identity and cisgender versus trans but just race and class and national origin and everything. What would they think of me, for example? A brown immigrant from India. I feel like if you exclude one, it’s so easy then to find problems with other groups as well who aren’t exactly like you.

Tam: Yeah. There’s always someone else to transfer it on to once your original target is sort of legislated away as it were.

Parinita: Exactly! Which is what I don’t understand why lesbians have caught onto this so much; a group of lesbians, of course, not all lesbians. But they think trans women are going to impinge on their own rights. But once they start excluding trans women, they’re going to be targeted by the homophobes as well. It should be a solidarity amongst all marginalised identities, not just in-fighting. And quickly before we move on to happier things, I just wanted to talk about how there are some transphobic implications within the Potterverse which I would never have noticed before J. K. Rowling outed herself as a TERF. Or even without the help of fans identifying this. Like I said, fans have helped me so much in being more critically analytical of things. But there are quite a few transphobic implications not only in the Potterverse but also in J. K. Rowling’s crime booksthe Robert Galbraith books.

Tam: Definitely. Well, I think there’s some fairly obvious trans implications with the Polyjuice potion being such a central part of the books. The ability to change appearance and change gender but the fact that you can only copy someone else. You can’t use it to become a new person. You have to use it to become a copy of someone who already exists. It’s interesting because it could very easily be written in a way that is trans-inclusive and is positive. But instead it’s like people have a sort of inherent essence and if they ever stop taking their medicine, they will revert back to that essence. It’s very gender essentialist.

Parinita: You saying that makes me think of Tonks as well. Any Metaphor – Metaphorgo -? Okay I don’t know how to pronounce that word [laughs]. [I was trying to say Metamorphmagus].

Tam: [laughs]

Gif of Ginny and Tonks. Tonks has changed her nose into a duck (?)

Parinita: What Tonks is, that is her ability to change her appearance into anything – across the gender spectrum essentially. That would be so easy to make inclusive of non-binary, genderqueer, gender nonconforming people. In response to J. K. Rowling’s transphobia, this collective of queer Harry Potter fans, launched this fanzine Trans-Inclusive Education at Hogwarts I think it’s called. I’m going to look up the correct name and link it. [It’s called Trans-Affirming Magical Care]

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: But basically they’ve got all these queer fans to write and draw stuff for the fanzine and all the proceeds are going to be donated to charities that work with trans people. And one of them was Maia Kobabe’s work, which is also on Tumblr. That focuses more specifically on Tonks and how they would be gender nonconforming and  basically their appearance could reflect on what gender they are identifying with on a particular day. And in Hogwarts as well, how the very binary, very gender essentialist dorm system that they have and the bathroom system that they have would accommodate – how the building itself, the magical architecture itself would change to accommodate their identities or any identities in Hogwarts.

Tam: I think it’s interesting that Tonks, one of the most outwardly queer-coded characters in the whole series is effectively married off to someone twice her age. But also the fact that Lupin as well is a queer-coded character in a profoundly negative way. The fact that her werewolves, where she explicitly describes them as an AIDs metaphor and all but one of them are predators who want to eat children and infect them with werewolfness, is a bit, little, little, tiny weeny little bit dodgy.

Parinita: [laughs] Yeah. He’s the good one. But everyone else … he’s the exception to the otherwise terrible, terrible norm. Keep your children away!

Tam: Exactly. It’s a profoundly horrible thing to put in a children’s book series.

Parinita: And then I just recently finished re-reading The Prisoner of Azkaban. And this is something that one of my previous guests Lorrie Kim brought up about the Boggart scene in Prisoner of Azkaban. Where Neville’s greatest fear is Professor Snape – which understandable, because he’s really horrible. In the series, a Boggart turns into your greatest fear. And the way to defeat a Boggart is to make yourself laugh. So you have to turn it into something funny. And the most hilarious thing to Neville here or to Lupin, I guess, because it was his idea is to turn Snape into wearing his grandmother’s clothes.

Tam: Yeah!

Gif from Prisoner of Azkaban of Boggart Snape turning into Snape wearing Neville's grandmother's clothes

Parinita: And that’s such a butt of jokes, right?

Tam: Yeah. I mean it now seems very telling that the first place she went with that was man in a dress. The fact that she thinks that’s inherently humiliating and hilarious.

Parinita: Yeah and when we’re reading it, we’re on the side of Harry and Lupin and Neville, right? We like these characters so we identify with them. So the way that we’re being positioned to look at this scene is that we should find it funny as well and we should find it really strange as well. Whereas not just trans people but even gender nonconforming people can wear or men can wear dresses, right? Why should that be so funny that it defeats this creature that’s supposed to be your darkest nightmare? Anyway, I think that’s enough time that we’ve dedicated in our episode to J. K. Rowling for today. Her books are problematic.

Tam: [laughs]

Parinita: She is problematic. I can let go of her; I can’t let go of the books. Do you have any closing thoughts on J. K. Rowling before we move on to happier topics?

Tam: I hope she listens to people and learns empathy and gets better.

Parinita: Yeah. [sighs] I hope so too. I’m really optimistic about most things – I’m an optimistic person. But from the way that she’s been constantly treating trans people. Even today, while we’re recording –

Tam: Oh no.

Parinita: It almost sounds very cultish you know.

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: I was talking to Jack today earlier and he was reading the responses there because he has much more tolerance for this sort of stuff than I do [going through bigoted tweets, that is; not transphobia]. And he was like, “Yeah this just sounds like a cult that she’s been recruited into.”

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: And now she is also doing the recruiting. They’re affirming each other. So she obviously believes that she’s a hundred per cent correct.

Tam: Unfortunately.

Parinita: And that I think is getting in the way and also her privilege is getting in the way of her talking to people.

Tam: Yeah. Definitely.

Parinita: It’s sad, but you can only control what you can control. So we can leave her aside.

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: And maybe talk about other just explicitly nonbinary and trans representations in mainstream science fiction and fantasy. Have you come across any examples of these?

Tam: I have more examples than I can count.

Parinita: Oh brilliant!

Tam: I’ll always recommend Jay Y. Yang’s Tensorate series. They are some of the most varied and interesting books that I have ever read. They’re set in a world that doesn’t understand gender the same way our world does. So kids don’t have a gender. They choose one if they want one when they grow up.

Book covers from the four books in J. Y. Yang's Tensorate series

Parinita: That sounds really interesting! And also really unfortunately rare in speculative fiction.

Tam: Yeah. There’s four little novellas and they’re all completely different. So one’s a crime scene investigation, one’s spies and action-based. And one’s just someone recounting their memories of a relationship. And they’re all beautiful.

Parinita: Oh that’s awesome! So I have a couple of examples but mine are a little different just in terms of the framework of the world. The Lumberjanes – I don’t know if you’re familiar with that comic series.

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: So that has a nonbinary character, Barney, as well as a trans girl character, Jo. But it’s incorporated in such a way that that’s not a big deal at all. That’s just “normal”. That’s just one of the many identities that you can be. And there’s never a coming out storyline at all. It’s just yeah this is what it is. You just accept it, which I love. And also there is a slightly different example. In the Magnus Chase series by Rick Riordan

Tam: Yes!

Barney and Jo from The Lumberjanes

Parinita: There’s a genderqueer character, Alex Fierro. They’re the child of Loki who, I think, in Norse mythology, has been known to vary across the gender spectrum – from what at least Rick Riordan tells me. [laughs] I don’t know much about Norse mythology.

Tam: Yeah.

Alex Fierro

Parinita: But I love that both these are a very mainstream series. And both of them are mainstream series for children. So you’re normalising it completely by making this a part of your story without making it a big deal as well. Which I love.

Tam: Yeah. I’ve heard a lot about the Rick Riordan series. I haven’t read any of them since I was a teenager. But I think he’s sort of the anti-J. K. Rowling in a lot of ways.

Parinita: Absolutely!

Tam: The fact that he uses his pull within the publishing industry to highlight marginalised writers who don’t necessarily have the kind of name recognition that he has.

Parinita: Yeah, he started a whole imprint just for people to write about their own mythologies which he wasn’t comfortable writing.

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: He’s basically the status quo – old white man in the US. So he has all this privilege which he recognises and tries to include as many people and as many stories and experiences as possible. Which I love. And then, of course, there’s – so I know we’re going to be talking more about them later – but Double Trouble in She-Ra and the Princesses of Power. And She-Ra and the Princesses of Power is just one of my favourite shows ever. Just because they’ve created a world where queerness is the default, where they centre and normalise female and queer characters in the story. And Noelle Stevenson who is the creator of She-Ra in terms of the new adaptation, she has also written a graphic novel called Nimona which is excellent.

Tam: Nimona is so good!

Parinita: That was my first experience with her. And then she was also one of the founding teams of The Lumberjanes as well

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: So I love her.  

Tam: I really didn’t expect to love She-Ra as much as I do. I think I first heard about it because people on the internet were mad about it. [laughs]

Parinita: Oh really? So see I think I either have really giant blinkers on or I just manage to very carefully avoid the negativity because I’ve heard about this. I’ve heard about all the hate She-Ra got but only secondhand. I’ve never come across it myself.

Tam: Yeah. So I think when they shared some promotional images before the show came out, there was a whole bunch of the usual right-wing weirdos who were all mad that this animated child wasn’t feminine enough.

Parinita: [laughs]

Tam: And they were destroying culture by remaking something. And I just thought, well if they’re upset about it, it’s probably going to be good.

Parinita: [laughs] Yeah. I mean I’m a huge fan of animated things anyway.

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: I read a lot of children’s books, I watch a lot of children’s programming as well. But this story is so refreshing. I know refreshing is an overused word.

Tam: [laughs]

Parinita: I am very guilty of this. I use this word a lot. But just because it’s so rare where they are so central. It starts off, of course, with a background lesbian couple – Netossa and Spinerella in the first season. But then that grows very organically, very in a not “this is a big deal!” kind of way to include Bow’s dads.

Tam: Yes.

Parinita: Then Double Trouble and finally – spoilers for those who haven’t watched the fifth season – Adora and Catra’s love story as well. And it includes characters of diverse body types and gender expressions and identities and it’s just so good!

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: I don’t know if you’ve come across this theory, there was a Twitter thread recently where trans fans read Scorpia, one of the princesses, as trans. They were basically inserting their own experiences into the character.

Tam: All right.

Parinita: Just in terms of how she’s this very uncomfortable but also really cuddly person and wants to be friends with people. But she’s also not very sure of how she would be accepted among the other princesses as well.

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: And one of the fans in this thread also actually said that looking at Scorpia and seeing her represented helped them come to terms with their own trans identity. Which I loved! And actually, one of the artists in the show had created Perfuma, another princess, as trans.

Tam: All right.

Parinita: Which Noelle loves; she loves the idea and actually she’s acknowledged all head canons as valid including reading Bow as a trans boy as well.

Tam: Yeah. That was the one I was always on board with from the beginning.

Parinita: Yeah because it’s very obvious right? You can see it … even for me who is very used to seeing very cis, straight characters in my media, I could see that immediately because that made complete sense to me. But Noelle, as much as she loves these head canons, in one of the things she said that she didn’t want to take credit for them because it wasn’t explicitly mentioned on the show. So they’re completely valid but she doesn’t want to pretend like she came up with this idea because she didn’t make it canon. With Double Trouble, there was a nonbinary actor portraying Double Trouble. So that was a very definite choice.

Tam: Oh and that’s so good as well. They cast a nonbinary voice actor to play Double Trouble.

Parinita: Yeah exactly! And the fact that Noelle Stevenson doesn’t want to say that yeah I thought of these characters as these diverse identities, because I didn’t. I love that you thought of it and it’s totally valid but because I didn’t do the homework and I didn’t cast a trans actress to play Perfuma, for example, so now I can’t claim Perfuma as trans. Which I love. That’s such a different perspective of diversity altogether, right?

Tam: Yeah. Again it’s kind of the anti-J. K. Rowling. She’s not taking credit for other people’s theories.

Parinita: [laughs] Oh my god you’re so right! Because I’ve spoken about this so much – about J. K. Rowling just co-opting everything. Like, “Black Hermione, oh yeah totally my idea!” And I also love that Noelle Stevenson will randomly tweet, “I love trans people!!!!!” with five exclamation marks.

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: And just devoid – no, not obviously devoid of context, she knows very much what the context is. But it won’t be in response to somebody; it’ll just be like yeah these are my feelings. This is out there.

Tam: Yeah. She’s honestly such a positive force on Twitter. She is absolutely delightful as a person.

Parinita: Yeah. I agree. Even just reading Nimona, I was like, “Okay the brain that made this, I want to be this person’s friend.” Because she also uses the correct amount of exclamations which is more than one.

Tam: [laughs]

Parinita: Which is how I talk. That’s that’s how I talk to people. But also Noelle and Jacob Tobia, who voices Double Trouble, they did talk about the overall absence of gender nonconforming characters in science fiction and media which causes fans to read themselves into their favourite worlds.

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: Some of the examples that they said were Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings. And I was reading this essay today in a book which, of course, the name I’m completely blanking on because my memory is swiss cheese. But they were talking about how they have all these trans head canons while growing up. They read Luce – Luce?! – Luke Skywalker as both trans and ace – asexual. Just because you don’t see all these identities represented in your media so you have to write those identities in the media.

Tam: Yeah. I think I quite like the theory of Luke Skywalker as ace because he doesn’t show attraction to anyone.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Tam: He doesn’t seem to evidence any interest in the usual hero’s journey of kill the bad guy and get the girl kind of thing.

Parinita: I mean in the first movie, they sort of did that and then as soon as he realised [laughs] that Leia was his sister, he was like okay that’s enough. I tried it. It’s not for me. This is not the kind of relationship that I want to have.

Tam: [laughs]

Parinita: They also read Tintin as a trans guy and Frodo as trans and asexual. I love that because it’s also very similar to Luke Skywalker’s life as well. The book is called The Secret Loves of Geeks. I’ve looked it up.

Tam: Ah okay. I’ll have a look at that.

Parinita: I love that – I mean I don’t love that fans have to do this but I love how creative fans are that they do do this. Even with racebending and genderbending and queering characters and everything.

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: But, at the same time, I love that queer people now are creating their own stories and they’re in charge. They’re queering mainstream media essentially so that there’s more representation than they had when they were growing up.

Tam: Absolutely.

Parinita: And another one I’ve seen was Kipo and the Age of Wonderbeasts.

Tam: Yes.

Parinita: Which I don’t think they have any gender nonconforming character. They have a gay protagonist but … I mean that’s also great but now She-Ra has set the bar so high that I expect more.

Tam: [laughs]

Parinita: I expect everything and everybody to be queer.

Tam: Yeah. I think it’s really quite astonishing what She-Ra has accomplished; what Noelle Stevenson and the people who worked on it have accomplished in terms of taking like a toy commercial from the 80s effectively –

Parinita: [laughs]

Tam: And turning it into this huge story about queer relationships.

Parinita: And also just like a different kind of heroism.

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: And a different kind of friendship. Well not a different kind of friendship but a different representation of the kinds of friendships that you have. There’s no individual notion of heroism. She-Ra is powerful but she’s not – if it was only up to her, Hordak would have won in Season 1. It’s such a communal notion of not only saving the world but also being good friends with each other. And they look at that so much in terms of not just focusing on romantic relationships but relationships of all kinds. Which I think is also so lacking in most media.

Tam: Definitely. I think that it does a really good job of showing that people don’t have to be in relationships as well. A lot of them are just really good friends.

Parinita: Absolutely. And they never make it a big deal. No aspect of identity in that world is ever commented upon. It’s just because queerness is the default. And also because there are so many female characters, that also seems to be the default. Usually science fiction and fantasy media is very male-dominated

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: Star Wars being the prime example.

Tam: [laughs]

Parinita: But here, because it has that as the default, there are so many more potentials and so many more ways of being. Not any one way feels like a trope or a stereotype. And none of it feels like you need to really make a big deal out of it.

Tam: Pause. Yeah. I think in any other show, a detail like … I can’t remember their names … Kyle and Rogelio from the Horde. Them having a crush on each other in the background. In another show, that would be kind of the Marvel thing where there’s some queer background characters and we can cut them out for edits in different countries kind of thing. But in this, it’s one among many.

Parinita: Yeah!

Tam: You can’t really accuse any of the characters of being bad queer representation because they’re not the only queer characters in the show.

Parinita: Yeah absolutely. And I think Jacob Tobia – Tobia? Is that how you pronounce it? I think. I should have checked, it’s terrible.

Tam: [laughs]

Parinita: Jacob Tobia, they mentioned in one of the interviews that we read about how it’s so important not just to have a queer cast but also have queer creators and crew.

Tam: Yeah, definitely.

Parinita: Because that has such a huge impact on the story. Like exactly what you were saying, this background and just the whole world. As someone coming in in the first season, they felt completely safe and supported and included. They didn’t feel like they had to hide any aspect of their identity which for them was so radical and so empowering.

Tam: Yeah I’ve got the quote here. They said, “I expected to feel like a rainbow thread in an otherwise pretty bland tapestry. But I found that I was a rainbow thread in just already most colourful, incredible queer trans garment I could want.”

Parinita: Oh yes I love that. I made a note of that quote as well. Imagine if all media was like this.

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: Because that’s what we want to be, right? Not just in terms of queer representation but in terms of different races and ethnicities and religions and physical abilities and disabilities and mental abilities, age – everything. Basically all the intersectional identities. We want it to be a place where no one identity is the norm and there’s room for everybody. She-Ra is such a great example of showing how that world can be.

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: So I know we’ve spoken about our love for She-Ra a lot. But also I know that you wanted to talk about Double Trouble specifically and their story arc in She-Ra.

Tam: Yeah. Obviously I love the character and their role in Season 4 specifically. But I felt a little bit betrayed by season 5 in terms of … I don’t know if it was just my overly high expectations but the fact that they were relegated to a background character almost. They show up for one episode and then a little moment in the ending montage. And I don’t know – I just wanted them to have more of a role in the story.

Parinita: Yeah because until you pointed this out, when we were talking about our episode, I didn’t even notice, unfortunately for me, like my own blind-spot. Because I was so caught up with the rest of it. And especially the Adora and Catra ship.

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: I was shipping them right from day one. And that’s happened. And I was so taken aback [in a good way] by how much queerness was central in the story that I didn’t realise that Double Trouble was quite backgrounded in the end. And I think it would have been easy for Double Trouble to have a bigger part in the story.

Tam: Definitely. There’s so much of the fifth series that is effectively espionage. They’re sneaking around the planet trying to evade capture.

Parinita: And they’re so good at it!

Tam: Yeah. I think it would have been very easy to write them in as Horde or something. I think there was something said about the fact that they tried and then couldn’t ’cause of the hive mind thing. I don’t know. I think it would have been quite easy to write them into a bigger role. So I don’t know if there was something going on behind the scenes there that meant that they were sort of pushed towards the background or if it was just that they wanted to focus on Adora and Catra for the final series.

Parinita: But even though they did focus on Adora and Catra because they split up, I still feel like the other characters, the other princesses and even new characters like the clones – the new Horde Prime clone whose name I have forgotten –

Tam: Wrong Hordak.

Parinita: Yes! [laughs] Wrong Hordak. They did have a role. It felt like they were a part of the story even if they weren’t onscreen all the time, if that makes sense. And with Double Trouble, I didn’t even remember – I remembered the last glimpse of them that we saw when they’d changed themself into one of the clones. I didn’t even remember until you reminded me that we’d seen them earlier in the season because they’d spent most of it undercover which is fine because that’s what their character is for. But that would have been such a perfect opportunity to recruit them.

Tam: Yeah. That’s what I thought was happening. And then they just disappeared.

Parinita: Yeah. I mean like you said, it’s not a “bury your gays” kind of thing in this world because everybody mostly is gay or at least is queer. So you can’t accuse the show of doing that. But the good thing is about fans – that’s the part that I love most – is that you are able to critique things because you love them and you want them to be better.

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: And you want them to represent your own interests and preferences and priorities more.

Tam: I haven’t looked but I’m sure there is a fanfic of Double Trouble going around sabotaging Horde operations behind the scenes.

Parinita: Oh! You’re so right.

Tam: That’d be good.

Parinita: Yeah.

Tam: I would watch a series of that. Like a spin-off show.

Parinita: Yeah, me too! I’m so sad that it’s ending – or it’s ended.

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: I completely respect the fact that she’d written it to last over five seasons and her story is done. But there’s so much potential for a spin-off. I want to watch that rather than a new He-Man that they want to spitefully create.

Tam: Ugh.

Parinita: In response to She-Ra.

Tam: Well I think honestly they should give the He-Man reboot to Noelle Stevenson as well.

Parinita: [gasps] That would be amazing!

Tam: Just make it as gay as possible. That would be incredible.

Parinita: Oh yeah. That’s the only way I would accept He-Man. [laughs]

Tam: But instead Kevin Smith is doing it which is possibly just the worst choice.

Parinita: Oh no! I don’t think I know who Kevin Smith is. His name sounds familiar.

Tam: He’s done quite a lot of films. Clerks and Dogma I think are his two most famous ones.

Parinita: Oh, I watch next to no movies so.

Tam: [laughs]

Parinita: Yeah, I’m very bad at this. I think it was the same faction that thought Noelle Stevenson was ruining She-Ra that wants He-Man back?

Tam: I don’t know. But Kevin Smith specifically has a very crude juvenile sense of humour.

Parinita: Oh, that’s sad.

Tam: A lot of fart jokes and stuff.

Parinita: Oh right. So, it’s not going to be the queer paradise that we want it to be. [laughs]

Tam: [laughs] Unfortunately not.

Parinita: This diverse little world. It might be but I doubt it. We’ve spoken about what we love about nonbinary representations and the increasingly queer representations in media. But the video Aliens, Monsters, and Faceless Demons: The Dehumanisation of Nonbinary People In the Media spoke about … well exactly that.

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: How nonbinary people aren’t as … I don’t want to say respected but treated as well as cis characters.

Tam: Yeah. I think the video does a really good job of bringing up the idea that nonbinary characters are inhuman as well like looking outlandish or demonic or just straight-up not having a face kind of thing. My wishful thinking theory about Double Trouble is that they’re not actually an inhuman lizard creature. They are human and they just choose to look like a lizard creature because that’s how they’re most comfortable.

Parinita: Oh! That’s a great theory.

Tam: That’s my personal wild theory there.

Parinita: [laughs]

Tam: I think in isolation it’s not an issue that a particular nonbinary character is depicted that way. But I think overall as a trend, like you’ll see books recommending lists of nonbinary characters in science fiction and fantasy and you have Martha Wells’ Murderbot series which are great books but they’re also explicitly about a character who is not human and does not want to be human.

Parinita: Yeah. And Janet as well, right? In The Good Place like the video brought up.

Tam: Janet’s an interesting one because she obviously does look human and she uses she/her pronouns and presents in quite a feminine way. And I think that’s in some ways quite an interesting bit of representation, the idea that nonbinary people don’t necessarily have to be androgynous or outlandish looking. And I think that is good. But I also think that the fact that the show didn’t necessarily intend Janet to be nonbinary, the fact that she says, “Not a girl” constantly is more, “I’m not human” than “I’m not a girl”.

Parinita: And it’s not something that is framed as something to be taken seriously.

Tam: That too, yeah. It’s a running joke.

Parinita: Yeah. It’s something that you can easily ignore or overlook.

Tam: I wish they had done that differently. I wish Janet was more explicitly nonbinary. Because I think even the fact that she’s a female-presenting character in a huge network sitcom that constantly says, “Not a girl” I think that’s in itself a little bit ground-breaking. But it also could have been better.

Parinita: No, absolutely. Because until I watched that video, I hadn’t even thought of Janet as nonbinary.

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: Because of exactly some of the same things that you’ve said about how she presents, the pronouns that she uses. But also my own blind-spots you know?

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: Because for me, as a cisgender woman who’s used to seeing – maybe not in terms of race and things – but I’m used to seeing representations of women, even though male representations take precedence. But it’s still increasing in terms of women. But yeah nonbinary representations are so lacking. And I think you’re right. If it’s a trend, then it is really problematic. Like you said, with Kyle and Rogelio, it’s not a problem if it’s one amongst many.

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: At the same, even with Double Trouble, because in that world, there’s like Rogelio, there’s Catra, there’s Mermista who go against that human-ness. There’s cat and mermaid and Double Trouble. So I think within that world, it’s still more acceptable than within the larger mediascape where it’s falling into a trend.

Tam: Yeah, that’s true.

Parinita: The book that I talked about, which is The Secret Loves of Geeks, it’s essentially an anthology of love stories.

Tam: All right.

Parinita: But also different kinds of love and across the gender spectrum as well as across the sexual orientation spectrum as well. And it’s also comics and it’s nonfiction and it’s different kinds of essays and things. So it’s really good. I would definitely recommend that.

Tam: Sounds good. I’ll have a look for it.

Parinita: Thank you so much, Tam, for being on the podcast.

Tam: That’s okay.

Parinita: One of the things that I love about this project is that I just get to chat about things that I love with people that I like.

Tam: Yeah.

Parinita: So it doesn’t feel like work at all. And thank you so much for not making it feel like work.

Tam: Thank you for having me. It’s been good fun.

[Outro music]

You’ve been listening to our episode on the representation of diverse gender identities in science fiction and fantasy media. Thank you so much Tam for being a part of this project and chatting with me about some of my favourite things. And thank you Jack for all the homemade memes which shame me for not replying to texts on time (and also for the editing).

[Outro music]

I’d love to hear from you and talk to you – so any feedback, comments or critiques are very welcome! Get in touch with me on social media, leave a comment on my blog, or email me at edps@leeds.ac.uk. If you’d like to follow the podcast or the PhD project, visit my website marginallyfannish.org. Here you’ll find the podcast episodes, transcripts, episode resources and links, and my research blog. You can also receive updates on Facebook or Instagram at Marginally Fannish or on Twitter where I’m @MarginalFannish. I share episode resources on social media so you can find a bunch of excellent fan podcasts and essays to look up. If you enjoyed this podcast, please share it with anyone you think will enjoy it too.

Thanks for listening! Tune in again next time for all things fannish and intersectional!

Episode 14 We Don’t Know What To Do With Them: Representations of Older Women in Media

Episode Resources:

1) TV Show Episode – Buffy The Vampire Slayer: Band Candy

2) Fan podcast – Buffering the Vampire Slayer: Band Candy

3) Fan podcast – Women of Harry Potter: Molly Weasley with Dr. Chloe Angyal

4) Fan podcast – Breaking The Glass Slipper: Representations of Motherhood with Aliette de Bodard

5) Fan podcast – Breaking The Glass Slipper: Maiden, Mother, and Crone: Ageism in Genre Fiction

6) Fan podcast – Women of Harry Potter: Mrs Figgs 

7) Fan podcast – Women of Harry Potter: Minerva McGonagall with Brea Grant and Mallory O’Meara 

8) Fan podcast – Imaginary Worlds: Travelling in the TARDIS

9) Fan podcast – Woke Doctor Who: The Women Who Waited

 

Episode Transcript:

This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity. If you would prefer the original, unedited version, please let me know!

Deb Dimond Young

[Intro music]

Welcome to Marginally Fannish, a show where we aim an intersectional lens at some of our favourite media and their fandoms.

[Intro music]

My name is Parinita Shetty and you’re listening to the fourteenth episode of Marginally Fannish. In this episode, I talk to Deb Dimond Young about how older women are represented in media and the impact this has on culture and society.

Mainstream media values youth and ageing is associated with loss and bitterness. But what is old anyway? The idea is socially constructed and varies across historical, geographical, and cultural contexts. Essentialist ideas in media dictate what people of a certain age – both old and young – are supposed to do. The portrayal of women over a certain age is rife with stereotypes – that is, if these representations even exist in the first place. Mothers are represented in limited roles with their identities tied to their husbands and children. These negative tropes influence real-life interactions and mainstream imaginations.

A gendered contradiction means that older men in media are allowed to retain the agency and power that women aren’t. Romance, sex and sexuality is largely absent in portrayals of older women. While there are media examples of women disrupting expectations and going off on their own adventures, these are few and far between. We need more stories and more people telling these stories. Expanding the diversity of ages behind the screen can change the narratives that we value.

Find our conversation about all this and more in today’s episode.

Happy listening!

[Intro music]

Parinita: Today I’m so happy to welcome Deb Dimond Young on the podcast. Deb teaches First Year Integrated Communication and Writing at the University of Northern Iowa and is currently working on a PhD in rhetoric and professional communication from Iowa State University. Her research interests include composition pedagogy, service learning and feminist rhetoric. Deb also has a nerdy interest in the pedagogical possibilities of fandom rhetoric and she recently presented her work on fan podcasting as public pedagogy at the Feminism and Rhetorics Conference and will be presenting further work next summer at the 9th Biennial Slayage Conference on the Whedonverse. All that sounds so incredible and I can’t wait to hear more about your work, Deb. Both of us are nerdy feminists.

Deb: [laughs]

Parinita: So we’re both really excited to talk about the intersections of age and gender today. Specifically, we’re going to be discussing how older women are represented in some of our favourite media and the implication of this on the real world. I know that this is something you have a lot of thoughts about, Deb, so could you tell us a little about your own experiences with this and how and why you got interested in this topic?

Deb: Sure. First of all, thank you for having me today. I’m really excited to talk to you about these issues. I came to fandom later than a fair number of people. I mean I had things that I was a fan of as a child but I really got into sci-fi and fantasy fandom more around college into adulthood for some strange reason. When I was in high school, I had friends who were really into Doctor Who but in the States, Doctor Who aired at really odd times on public television. [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs]

Deb: And so I didn’t watch it all that much. But I was a peripheral fan. I had friends who were really into it, so I was aware of that and an occasional viewer. And that was during the Tom Baker years in the United States. I remember seeing David Tennant on the cover of Entertainment Weekly when his run began with the rebooted Who. And I read the article and I was like, “Oh this sounds kinds of interesting.” I hadn’t actually realised that the show had ever gone away.

Parinita: [laughs]

Deb: And so I watched it and absolutely fell in love with it. And then went back to watching the Christopher Eccleston years and have been hooked ever since and I’ve seen every episode since then. And one of the other fandoms that we’re going to talk about today is Buffy the Vampire Slayer. And that came out in 1997 when I was twenty-five and not a regular viewer of teen fantasy and horror, so it didn’t even register as a thing to me. But by 2002, when it was heading into its last season and was on syndication, in the US it ran at just totally odd times – as the shows that are in syndication did at that time before cable. I guess cable was a thing in 2002. But I didn’t necessarily have it.

Parinita: [laughs]

Deb: So it just would run at really odd times. And I had just given birth to my oldest daughter and we’d be up all hours nursing and taking care of her. And so I just turned on the TV and Buffy just happened to be on a fair amount of those strange times. And so again, I got hooked and ended up watching all the episodes and just fell in love with her and with the whole Joss Whedon universe of Firefly and Dollhouse and everything that came after that. And then Harry Potter came out in 1997 when I wasn’t reading a lot of children’s fantasy either. [laughs] But again when I had my daughter, I had friends with older kids who were like, “Oooh keep this on your radar. You’re really going to want to know about this story when Laura gets older. When your kids get older.” And so I read it and again [laughs] I just got hooked. And it became a really wonderful thing. What I really loved about these fandoms and coming to fandom a little more in my adult life is that it’s really become a wonderful thing to share with my kids. My daughters love Doctor Who, they love Harry Potter, my oldest daughter is a huge Buffy fan. So, first of all, I feel like I’ve done an okay job in parenting.

Parinita: [laughs]

Deb: [laughs] But also it’s given us a great way to spend time together and have something to talk about. And so I really loved that aspect of fandom. We’ve gone to cons, we’ve done stuff like that, which has been really fantastic. I’ve gone back to get my PhD in a non-traditional timeline, I guess you could say. I’m hoping to complete my PhD here before I turn fifty – that’s my goal. I turn forty-eight this summer so [laughs] I’m running out of time. But I’ve been able to pull that love of fandom into my work as well and really take a look at how fandom becomes such an incredible teaching tool. Paul Booth describes fandom as, “the classroom of the future.” And how we can use these wonderful things that we love so deeply and so passionately as a way to teach important concepts. And I see podcasting as being a really wonderful way to connect those two worlds. So now I’ve even been able to pull these things into my professional life, which has been really lovely.

Parinita: That’s so good to hear. And that’s so interesting as well because our experiences differ in terms of age because I grew up with Harry Potter and I grew up with fandom as well. And it’s something that I was thinking of while watching Buffy too because I first watched Buffy when it used to air on TV when I was a teenager myself. So I was much closer to Buffy’s age at that time. And now when we watched the Band Candy episode in preparation for our conversation today, I realised that I was seeing things from the adults’ perspective and not really the teen perspective.

Deb: [laughs]

Parinita: It’s the same now when I’m going back to Harry Potter – and even Doctor Who to an extent, but mostly Harry Potter – where I’m looking at it through adult lenses because it’s such a different experience. And what you’re saying how fandom is such a great tool for literacy of all kinds, it’s something that I’m really interested in because when I was in school in India, in Mumbai, in our school – and I’ve spoken about this a little bit before – but in our schools, they didn’t really teach us how to think, they taught us what to think. So critical thinking, critical literacy – that wasn’t really on the radar at all. But I’ve been a part of Harry Potter fandom since I was thirteen years old on Mugglenet which was one of the first few Harry Potter fan websites. And I realised that I learned critical literacy and to think critically through my experiences in fandom; through all these different perspectives not just in fanfiction but also meta and commentary and now, more recently, on podcasts – there’s a lot of commentary where people look at these things that they love more critically. That’s why I started this podcast because I know that this is true based on my own experiences and I wanted to explore that a little bit more. But in terms of age, since that’s what we’re going to be talking about today, to be honest, this is only something that I started actively thinking about in a run-up to a previous episode that we did on this podcast about age and disability. Because I had massive blind-spots then and still do now in terms of representations of older people in media, especially older women. And it’s something that I’m constantly thinking about now – especially the ways in which mainstream media seems to value youth and especially science fiction and fantasy media where ageing is associated with loss and bitterness and the impact that this has on mainstream society at large.

Deb: Absolutely. And I think that particularly the texts that we were looking at to prepare for this podcast have such a really nice set of examples in terms of the way that media can value youth, right? Because we’re dealing with a couple of texts with immortal characters. So in Buffy, we’ve got Angel, Spike, the other vampires who are really just beloved characters. Angel is a vampire with a soul. He’s beloved by Buffy, he’s beloved by the audience. He is forever this example of the perfect love and the perfect man – other than when he loses his soul and becomes evil again and tries to kill everybody.

Parinita: [laughs]

Deb: But that’s the side part. And then Spike is the bad boy we all love to hate. He’s the guy that your mom warned you about but you had a crush on anyway.

Parinita: [laughs] Absolutely!

Deb: [laughs] Actually there’s a great interview with him – with James Marsters not with Spike [laughs] – the actor who plays Spike – on the Buffering The Vampire Slayer podcast, and he talked about how when they were creating the show, he and Joss were trying to see just how far they could push Spike in terms of his evilness. Because everyone loved him so much. He’s supposed to be this mean, evil character and people loved him and loved him and loved him. In spite of what he did! [laughs]

Parinita: I’ll let you continue with your point but that made me think of how when I was watching it as a teenager, I had a huge crush on Spike.

Deb: Absolutely!

Gif of Spike from Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Parinita: And similarly in Gilmore Girls – I don’t know how familiar you are with Gilmore Girls – but there’s a character there, Jess.

Deb: Yes!

Parinita: Who was again a bad boy … I obviously had a fictional type. Which now, if I go back and watch these shows again through my thirty-year-old eyes, I don’t know how different my view will be. Maybe I’ll still make poor fictional life choices. [laughs] I don’t know, but it would be interesting.

Deb: [laughs] No, absolutely. And so here are these characters who are eternally young, eternally beautiful. And we love them and we really connect with them. And the Doctor is the same way. So the Doctor – since the reboot at least – has been played by young, attractive actors, right?

Parinita: Um hmm.

An image of the six new Doctors from the Doctor Who reboot

Image courtesy MrRy4n on DeviantArt

Deb: So we have Eccleston and Tennant and Smith and now with Jodie – we’ve got these very, very beautiful youngish people and there have only been two Doctors in the modern reboot – Peter Capaldi and then John Hurt as the War Doctor – who had the Doctor appearing as an older – by no means old, but older – in comparison. And so we’ve got these just really beautiful, eternally young people who are held up as these great heroes and people that we should be looking up to. When I was trying to think about this, I was really searching for an exception of someone who is eternally young in these texts and yet not necessarily somebody that we want to associate with. And the one person I could come up with is in Harry Potter of Moaning Myrtle. Right?

Parinita: Aaah!

Deb: She’s eternally young. She eternally has her young image but not her body and she’s just miserable. [laughs]

Parinita: Yeah.

Deb: And it might be something about the fact that she doesn’t have an actual body, just a form. So maybe it’s the fact that it’s the young body that’s the important part. I’m not really sure.

Parinita: There’s this podcast that I listen to called The Gayly Prophet.

Deb: Yes.

Parinita: Which is a Harry Potter podcast and it’s great. And they propose that when Myrtle was alive, she was severely depressed. And even as a ghost then, she continues to be severely depressed. That mental illness didn’t go away even with her death.

Deb: Yeah. Her corporeal form.

Parinita: Which I found very depressing. Yeah.

Deb: That’s really interesting. So yeah, we have these wonderful characters that we love and adore who are eternally young. And on the flipside of that, your question there about ageing being associated with bitterness – that we have lots and lots and lots of examples, right?

Parinita: Um hmm.

Deb: When you think about the standard maiden, mother, crone triad that you see in literature for women, the crone stage, that section is where we tend to put particularly older female characters. It was interesting on the podcast Women of Harry Potter, Stephanie Paulsell said that, “The best thing about turning fifty as a woman is that you become invisible to men.” And you see that so much in these characters. You think about people like Sarah Jane on Doctor Who who, when we first meet her again in School Reunion when she comes back in New Who, she’s living her life fighting injustice through journalism just like she did before she met the Doctor in her previous incarnation in Classic Who. But when she sees the Doctor and meets Rose, she immediately shifts into jealousy and bitterness. And she talks about how she’s never had a love in her life because no one could compare with the Doctor. She has no children, no family, none of the things that we associate with proper female roles. And she’s lonely and she seems bitter and she kinda takes on that spinstery role even though she’s not that old. [laughs] She’s middle-aged.

Gif of scene with Rose and Sarah Jane. Text says - Rose: I'm not his assistant. Sarah Jane: No? Get you, tiger.

Parinita: Yeah. And it’s this cycle where media influences real life which influences media which influences real life. You only see these examples of older women, especially single older women, who are seen as either unhappy or pathetic or even crazy.

Deb: Yeah.

Parinita: In the Women of Harry Potter Mrs. Figgs episode, they took a more empowered view of Mrs. Figgs. But that’s not really seen in the books; she is seen as this batty old lady who loves her cats.

Deb: Absolutely.

Parinita: And if you only see that, then it socially conditions you, even if that’s not what you want – marriage and kids or whatever, this normative idea of being a woman, especially an older woman. But then you feel that loss yourself just because that’s what everyone around you in real life as well as fictional life has. And it’s just a harmful cycle, I think.

Deb: Absolutely. And one of the things that I do love about what they do with Sarah Jane is that over the process of that episode, it seems like she shifts out of bitterness and into more processing trauma, right?

Parinita: Um hmm.

Deb: She’s one of the few characters that we get to see long term after she’s left her experience with the Doctor. And she seems to be processing through that trauma of what that experience is. And when she leaves the show in School Reunion, she leaves re-energised to take on this new life. Which actually led to a spin-off.

Parinita: Yeah.

Deb: And so she had her own adventures.

Poster for The Sarah Jane Adventures

Parinita: Yeah. I haven’t watched the spin-off yet but that’s awesome that there’s this example of an older woman going off on her own adventures.

Deb: Yes!

Parinita: Which you don’t really see usually.

Deb: Absolutely. And one of the things about the spin-off is she adopts a boy. It becomes this found family structure there which is really lovely. And so yeah, it’s really nice to have this woman who does get to have these adventures even though she’s – I don’t even know what age the actress was who played her – in middle-ages, off having adventures and doing great things. Which is much better than the other bitter woman that we see in Doctor Who which is Amy Pond in The Girl Who Waited.

Parinita: Yeah.

Deb: When we look at that episode where she gets stuck in an alternate timeline and then she has to survive on her own for thirty-six years and she ages so vividly and gets extraordinarily angry and bitter. And that is the focus, even though she’s so strong and she’s so clever and she’s such a warrior because of her experience. We focus and the show focuses on that bitterness and that anger and that physical disintegration.

Screenshot from The Girl Who Waited of young Amy and old Amy

Young Amy and Old Amy in The Girl Who Waited

Parinita: Which Rory doesn’t get. Her husband, he aged what for two thousand years?

Deb: Absolutely! Two thousand years as the last centurion!

Parinita: But yeah, he looks the same.

Deb: Absolutely!

Rory as the last centurion

Parinita: He’s completely well-adjusted more or less. In the Woke Doctor Who episode they mentioned that she has her daughter – spoilers, sorry, for a show that’s now fifteen years old almost. [laughs] But yeah her daughter, River, she has that relationship without having to go through any process of motherhood or representation of motherhood or ageing or anything. I think the glasses that she gets towards the end of her run on Doctor Who are the only concession towards her age that’s made at all.

Deb: Yup. I mean it really is remarkable. The only time we see Rory age is actually in the episode The Doctor’s Wife when the House traps them in the TARDIS. And is kind of torturing them, messing with their heads.

Parinita: Yeah.

Deb: And there you see Rory ageing and become angry and bitter at Amy every time they get separated where he ages and she doesn’t. But we also learn at the end that that was all an illusion. We’re seeing that story through Amy’s eyes, not through Rory’s eyes and so it seems almost more like her processing her guilt and subconscious in some way, more so than something that actually physically happens to him because it turns out to all be an illusion, right?

Parinita: Yeah.

Deb: When we see women who are over fifty, we tend to see them as either angry and bitter or daffy and crazy like Mrs Figg, right? Or we don’t see them at all. They just disappear entirely.

Parinita: Yeah exactly!

Deb: Right?

Parinita: If you see in real life, there’s so much potential because for a lot of women, because of social conditioning and just because of the way that society is structured, you do have a lot of women getting married young – youngish and then having kids, being married – going through this whole thing. But then after a certain age, when you don’t have the responsibilities of the children and perhaps even of your husband, there is so much that could be done. In stories especially, you could explore this whole theme of liberation as well. You can go and do these things that you were not “allowed” to earlier – especially like in a more traditional society. India, for example, in a lot of contexts, women don’t have that power to be able to talk back to social norms. There are some women who do have that agency but most women don’t. When you become older, you’re almost free to do what you couldn’t do when you were younger. And you could explore all these different things. Especially in science fiction and fantasy where we’re supposed to imagine these alternative possibilities anyway.

Deb: And that’s the thing. As people are living longer, it just seems like there are such great possibilities. What we’ve considered middle age of you know forties-ish – fifties-ish is truly middle now, right?

Parinita: Yeah.

Deb: We determine middle as forty and fifty, and then you live until seventyish or so, maybe eighty. But by then your body and mind may not be at the point that’s allowing you to do lots of things. I have a relative who is 102, I think.

Parinita: Wow.

Deb: I think she just turned 102 and her mind is sharp as a tack and fifty-one was literally mid-life for her. Now that we are living longer, we have this great opportunity. And there’s so much that you can play with in terms of stories for that life afterwards. An example, who’s not one of the ones we’re talking about because she’s not sci-fi or fantasy, is Miss Marple from Agatha Christie.

Parinita: Yeah.

Deb: The whole reason she was able to have these great adventures and solve these great crimes as an older woman is because nobody paid attention to her, right?

Parinita: That’s true.

Deb: She disappears.

Parinita: One example from real life that I really love that I came across a few years ago was Judy Dench who apparently embroiders on the sets.

Deb: Yes!

Parinita: Which again, is an activity that you see very much associated with women. And a docile, submissive sort of image that you have. And she actually embroiders really sweary stuff. [laughs] Which I love. That would be a character that I want to put in a book.

Deb: Honestly, I took inspiration from that. I also cross-stitch feminist cross-stitching. [laughs]

Parinita: Amazing. We have to see a picture of that in the transcript of the show.

 

Deb: I can get you a picture of some of the things that I’ve done. But yeah, that idea of subverting what is considered a traditional female activity in a way that actually disrupts, I just absolutely love. I think that’s really fun. And it’s unfortunate that in sci-fi and fantasy, we don’t see that disruption very much. Because there is so much there to do!

Parinita: Absolutely.

Deb: There’s so much space.

Parinita: Science fiction and fantasy and also just media in general perpetuates such essentialist ideas of age, right? Like what people of a certain age – both old and young – are allowed to do or are supposed to do. Which is why in Band Candy, the episode that we watched for this show in Buffy The Vampire Slayer, where some magical chocolate ends up making all the responsible adults behave like teenagers – for people who don’t know what this episode is about.

Deb: It’s one of my favourites.

Parinita: And I love that. It’s such a good episode. I thought it in a really interesting way challenged that notion of what proper grown-ups are supposed to do. But it also, to some extent, exceptionalised it. Because it was very temporary, right? It was just that one episode where they could do these things. I don’t remember what happens later. I haven’t watched the rest of the series recently. You suggested we watch this episode for our conversation today. What did you think of it?

Deb: This is absolutely one of my favourite episodes. And especially watching it now when I associate far more with Joyce and with Giles.

Parinita: [laughs] Yeah.

Deb: Than I do with Buffy and Willow and the Scooby Gang.

Parinita: [laughs]

Deb: It looked like so much fun to film. But yeah absolutely, you’re right about the exceptionalising idea, right? Because in everyday – everyday! – in other episodes [laughs] Joyce is not a real person here.

Parinita: [laughs]

Deb: But in her regular life, Joyce is a single mom, right? She has a job where she works in a gallery but we never see her in the gallery. She refers to it occasionally, she sometimes has boxes of materials around and so there’s reference to it. We know that she has this life outside of the house. But we very rarely see her physically outside of their house. The few times that we do, it tends to be things like driving Buffy to school, right? So she’s still doing mom stuff. Even though she must have this life outside of being a mom, we never ever see that.

Parinita: Yeah.

Deb: We see her in very what you think of as that stereotypical middle-aged mom attire.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Deb: Skirts and dresses, slacks and cardigans – that sort of thing. She rarely dates. [laughs] One episode where does date, she actually dates an evil robot who tries to kill everybody, so her experience is not great. And she’s never seen as a sexual character until the very end of her arc just before – spoilers here again for a twenty-year-old show – but she dies. That’s the point where she finally gets to start to have this life outside of the house. They’re finally starting to refer to that. And then she’s killed off.

Parinita: Yeah.

Deb: But in Band Candy, when she eats the evil candy, and regresses to her former self, you see before the candy is eaten, both Joyce and Giles are enforcing the rules and they’re holding Buffy to account and they’re very stern and this is what we’re doing. But after eating the candy, they don’t care. They’re breaking the rules. We don’t see Joyce in the house after she starts eating the candy. She is entirely out of the house. That’s why it’s so shocking that Buffy comes to check on Giles and Joyce is at Giles’s house. Because Joyce never leaves the house other than to do mom things. So she’s not in the house at all, her attire changes dramatically. It becomes very sexy and partially stolen.

Parinita: [laughs]

Image of Joyce and Giles

Deb: And she looks fantastic and her hair is big and fabulous. And Giles starts wearing eyeliner for some reason.

Parinita: [laughs]

Deb: We start seeing them out on the streets of Sunnydale. And Joyce herself becomes a very sexual being to the point where she actually has sex with Giles on the hood of a cop car.

Parinita: Yeah.

Deb: Which is off-camera and only implied until later when they come back and do confirm it happened.

Parinita: With a pair of handcuffs as well.

Deb: With handcuffs, yeah.

Parinita: Which Buffy is very uncomfortable about.

Deb: And just very, very different. But then again when the candy wears off, all of a sudden Joyce and Giles are reverting back to their normal selves, their normal clothing. We see Joyce picking Buffy up from school again and going back to her mom behaviour. And she’s really embarrassed about her behaviour. Both of them claim that they don’t really remember but given comments in the episode, clearly they do. So they’re kind of acting like they don’t remember as a way to hide what they did. And so yeah, it really reinforces that idea that there is normal Joyce and then there is candy Joyce, right?

Parinita: Yeah.

Deb: They’re very different in that way. Which really does reinforce that idea that normal Joyce is the one that we want. Normal Joyce is the stable, standard mom character. That is the one we should be thinking about and this is the one-off experience.

Parinita: And in the episode, in the Buffering the Vampire Slayer episode, they spoke about how there’s a lot of fanfiction of Joyce and Giles based off of this episode

Deb: Yes!

Parinita: Which again made me think of how obviously it’s exploring this under-representation of older not just romance but also sex and sexuality, which you don’t really see not only on this show but in media largely. This idea of young people being disgusted by the thought of their parents having sex. [laughs]

Deb: Right.

Parinita: How do you think biology works? [laughs] But this episode made me think about the fact that there’s also this very limited idea of teenagers as well.

Deb: Yes.

Parinita: Of sex and drugs and alcohol and dancing and being irresponsible. Whereas the teenagers at least in this episode were pretty alarmed by everything. I understand why they were alarmed, because they were their grown-ups. But still I can’t even imagine Willow doing these things on a regular basis. Until she goes Dark Willow for a bit.

Deb: [laughs]

Parinita: But generally, she wasn’t really that kind of teenager anyway. And especially now when we are seeing real-life teenagers take on these really monumental roles in a way that adults – a lot of adults don’t; with the climate crisis and with the Black Lives Matter protests, in India there were the anti CAA protests and even in the US the gun control protests. I feel like this normative idea of what being a teenager is needs to be challenged. I know we’re talking more about older women today but that’s why this episode really made me think of both ends of that spectrum.

Deb: Absolutely. I teach mostly first-year college students so in the US – that would be eighteen-nineteen years old.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Deb: And thinking about this image of what teenagers are and thinking of the students that I work with every year, yeah drastically different. Not that teenagers don’t do silly things.

Parinita: Yeah.

Deb: But yeah there are so many examples of teenagers who are, as you said, doing these amazing things. And it’s not recognised and they’re not given credit for what they’re doing in part, I think, because of this sort of imagery. That, like you were saying earlier with our over-saturation in media of images of older women as being bitter and angry, when we have these images of teenagers as being spoiled and reckless and so forth. Then we see when teenagers doing great things in the world, it’s so hard to try to pair those two concepts and hold space for both of those because what we’re seeing doesn’t match with the images that are bombarding us so continuously. And that’s really detrimental!

Parinita: Oh yeah, absolutely. And this is one of the reasons that I love this movie called Booksmart. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it.

Deb: Yes!

Parinita: I love it so much because when I watched it for the first time, it was doing that. For those who haven’t watched it, go watch it now.

Deb: So good!

Parinita: Yeah. It just takes these ideas of teenagers and flips it on their head and just has room for so many diverse experiences. There’s so much nuance and complexity in those representations – you don’t have to be this binary one or the other. You can be everything; you contain multitudes, as they say. It’s just a movie that I love very much.

Deb: Yes.

Parinita: Of course, like we were talking about in a lot of mainstream science fiction and fantasy media, mothers like Joyce and older women are completely missing in roles where their identities aren’t tied to their children or husbands. If you’re a woman over a certain age in media, like Stephanie Paulsell says over the age of fifty, because media is still mostly controlled by men, the way that your identity is defined is super limited.

Deb: Um hmm.

Parinita: In Breaking The Glass Slipper, Representations of Motherhood episode, they said that mothers are almost seen to be this hindrance to adventures. Mothers are not allowed to go on adventures.

Deb: Right. Well, there’s a wonderful book by Kathleen Rowe Karlyn called Unruly Girls, Unrepentant Mothers: Redefining Feminism On Screen that talks about this a lot. And she argues that older women are frequently absent from pop culture just because we don’t know what to do with them, right?

Parinita: Um hmm.

Deb: And kind of what they were saying in Breaking The Glass Slipper, right? That women or mothers in particular, are supposed to be this hindrance. They’re those who are enforcing the rules, they keep you from having those adventures. And so we just don’t deal with them. We don’t know how to deal with them at all. And that’s one of the reasons why I think Minerva McGonagall is such an interesting character. Because there are clearly older female instructors at Hogwarts, but she’s the one that we spend a lot of significant time with. And so it’s really interesting to parse apart her concept and what she is in this role. And what’s fascinating is that we still mostly think of McGonagall as a nurturer to children, right?

Parinita: Yeah.

Deb: Because she is a teacher in a school, becomes headmistress at the school. She’s a different type of mother than say a Molly Weasley.

Parinita: Yeah.

Deb: She’s not the huggy, cuddly, nurturey one. She’s the strict, hold-the-line mother figure. But in doing that, the kids at the school know she is the one that you can count on. In the Women of Harry Potter episode, they talk about the fact that it’s when McGonagall goes away that suddenly Harry freaks out. “Wait a minute, there’s a serious problem here.”

Parinita: [laughs] Yeah.

Deb: ’Cause the one that is always here, the one we know we can always count on has left. And that means there’s trouble. We think about her so much in terms of her work with children. So we’re still holding that essential concept of what women are there to do. Even in her battle, she’s protecting the school, she’s protecting the kids. And so that’s still the description that we give. Vanessa Zoltan in Women of Harry Potter makes a great comment. “McGonagall is just as maternal as Molly because she has to take care of all of Hogwarts.”

Parinita: Um hmm.

Deb: That becomes her role.

Parinita: I think they mentioned this in that episode as well that she knows when to break the rules too.

Deb: Yes.

Parinita: In the fifth book when she whispers to Peeves, “It turns from the other side.” I think it was her. When he’s trying to undo the chandelier during the reign of Umbridge and she tells him that yeah it unscrews from the other side.

Deb: [laughs]

Parinita: And also during the battle like you said.

Deb: Right.

Parinita: She’s the one who’s at the forefront and she’s always there to stand up to things and stand up to people. But also she’ll sometimes just offer Harry Potter some biscuits [laughs] because that’s what he needs.

Deb: Yes.

Parinita: Or make him the Quidditch Seeker because First-Year rules are only for some people, not for others. [laughs] But yeah she really cares about things and she’s not this one-dimensional, strict, nunnish character.

Deb: Right. Yeah you think about when Harry flies and breaks the rules and her response is to make him Seeker of his team. [laughs]

Parinita: Or she’s like please, we have to win the Quidditch match, I can’t face Snape otherwise. [laughs]

Deb: [laughs] Absolutely. We still have her taking on these caring, nurturing, traditionally feminine roles which is really interesting. But the other side of that question that you mentioned is the idea of the absent mother that we just make them go away entirely. And so you got a couple of really great examples of that too. Lily, of course, from Harry Potter being the perfect example. By dying protecting her child, she’s the ultimate sacrificial mother. It also means that she’s eternally perfect. In the eyes of her child and her community, she’s always young and pretty which is why people are constantly commenting on her eyes. Those eyes never got wrinkles around them.

Parinita: [laughs]

Deb: [laughs] She was always young and pretty.

Parinita: Yup.

Deb: And her love is so extraordinary that it even protects her child after her death. And it really is interesting that as Harry grows and learns more about his parents, James becomes fallible in Harry’s eyes. He still loves him but he begins to learn that James is fallible. But he never learns that about Lily. Lily is always perfect.

Parinita: That’s true! And she’s almost placed on this pedestal, glorified to such an extent that she’s not even a real person anymore.

Deb: Right.

Parinita: Perfection is a prison.

Deb: Yeah. She will never change. She will never grow and so because of that, as a character, she falls into the same trope that we so often see with women in literature that they don’t get a full life.

Parinita: Yeah.

Deb: They don’t get a full character arc. We learn James’s backstory in terms of the trouble that he got into and mischief that he got into with his friends. We learn Lily’s backstory that she was a really nice kid and she was a really talented witch and she befriended the nerdy kid that nobody else liked. And that’s about it. [laughs] Right?

Parinita: Yup.

Deb: She never gets this rich, complicated backstory that James does. Which is really unfortunate.

Parinita: And even with Molly, she is taken so much for granted by her children. Yeah, she is this excellent character. But just within the context of the story, they love her but they take her for granted. She’s always at the background. And in terms of parenting, she’s always positioned as the strict one whereas Arthur Weasley can get away with shenanigans.

Deb: [laughs]

Parinita: Because he’s the man and he’s the husband and being strict and boring is Molly’s job. And that’s how it comes across. Obviously that reflects a lot of real life as well where men going out with their babies in a pram sometimes are seen as heroes. Like “oh my god wow you’re parenting your child!” Whereas women are supposed to do that.

Deb: Yeah and I think that it’s interesting again on that podcast Women of Harry Potter, Vanessa Zoltan really does a nice job of trying to complicate Molly a little bit and describes what she does as radical hospitality.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Deb: And I really, really love that descriptor because there’s that old saying that an army marches on its stomach. And the revolution against Voldemort doesn’t happen without Molly Weasley keeping everyone fed, clothed and happy.

Parinita: Yeah.

Deb: She’s making sure that the Order is functional both psychologically by sitting and chatting with Tonks and helping her work through her feelings. She’s keeping the kids fed and under control and working through. She’s making sure that everybody has what they need. And kinda pulling that to the world that we’re living in right now, I’m thinking about in the US right now we’re experiencing large-scale protests against police brutality and systemic racism like we haven’t seen in a really long time. And I saw a tweet recently that really struck me in terms of Molly. And it said that, “The revolution isn’t one lane. There are many lanes to a protest and you can’t be in all of them at once. But they all move the revolution forward.”

Parinita: Absolutely.

Deb: And I like that idea paired with Molly and this idea of radical hospitality, right? Her lane may be seen as this traditionally feminine lane but it’s absolutely vital to move the revolution forward. Without her, it all falls apart. And so what’s really frustrating to me is what you said just a minute ago that it’s just not recognised. She gets mocked for all her work, for the things that she thinks are important. Her work is taken for granted. She’s just dismissed as a character in the story. Even though she’s a total badass.

Parinita: Yeah!

Deb: I mean she’s out there [laughs] and she kills Bellatrix. The great, “Not my daughter, you bitch!” moment. That’s so fantastic!

Parinita: Yeah she gets that one amazing moment.

Deb: Yeah!

Parinita: But in the Representations of Motherhood episode in Breaking the Glass Slipper, they point out that heroism is seen in such a gendered lens.

Deb: Absolutely.

Parinita: Oh you’re this fighter and you’re this brave warrior, that makes you a hero; but taking care of your children and nourishing them spiritually and emotionally and physically – that’s not seen as heroic.

Deb: Absolutely.

Parinita: In the Women of Harry Potter episode about Mrs. Figgs, I love their interpretation of it where she’s weaponising her marginalised identity.

Deb: Yeah.

Parinita: Where she’s playing up to these Muggle stereotypes of crazy cat lady which makes her really easy to dismiss as well as the witching world stereotypes of Squibs where the magical population doesn’t really think about her at all and she’s again easy to dismiss. But she’s using that to act as a spy and also to protect Harry which is semi-successful.

Deb: [laughs]

Parinita: Because Harry grew up in a super abusive household. But yeah, I just like this trope of crazy cat lady being overturned to exert agency. Especially with what I was saying with older women who may not have had many opportunities to do this due to family and societal responsibilities earlier. They take this old age as a way to throw off all these social shackles and do whatever they want to do.

Deb: Yeah. Mrs. Figgs becomes the Miss Marple of the Harry Potter world. [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs] Oh, I love that.

Deb: Because everyone dismisses her, she’s able to do and get away with things that nobody else could do.

Parinita: Yeah I love that.

Deb: Just because no one accounts for her existence.

Parinita: [laughs] So what are some of your favourite characters in media who challenge these traditional conceptions of age and gender? We’ve spoken about a few of them earlier but if you had any more that you’d like to share.

Deb: Oh, River.

Parinita: [laughs]

Deb: Everything River. We can’t talk about women and age and sci-fi and fantasy and not spend a few minutes glorying in the wonder that is River Song.

Parinita: [laughs]

Gif of River Song from Doctor Who blowing a kiss

Deb: Oh I love River. So if we go back to Karlyn’s book, she has a great line. She defines an unruly woman as “a cluster of attributes that challenge patriarchal power by denying norms of femininity intended to keep a woman in her place”. And if that doesn’t define River, I can’t think of something that does, right? Because her body is unruly and her speech is improper. Her body is so unruly because like Time Lords, she can actually regenerate into completely different forms. Even when she’s in prison, she doesn’t stay put. [laughs]

Parinita: Yeah.

Deb: She has all of these different adventures – so many adventures – as many as anybody else on the show. We don’t see them unfortunately most of the time.

Parinita: Yeah.

Deb: But I think about the episode where Rory comes to get her and he’s dressed as the centurion and she’s swanning in having just been skating on the Thames with the Doctor in Victorian England.

Parinita: [laughs]

Deb: And you think about all these wonderful adventures. There’s that great line and I can’t think of what episode it’s in, where somebody says basically, “Isn’t it frustrating having to spend your days in prison for a crime you didn’t actually commit?” And she says, “The days can be theirs, but the nights are mine.”

Parinita: Hmm.

Deb: And I just really love that image. We often think of women, particularly women who are middle-aged and older ’cause Alex Kingston is by no stretch of the imagination old.

Parinita: Yeah.

Deb: They’re not sexual beings. And according to Karlyn, a woman whose behaviour is loose and sexual is again that unruly woman. And again, we see that in River. She’s the sexiest character in Doctor Who by a landslide. She kisses as a weapon. That’s how she originally almost kills the Doctor, it’s how she escapes from prison. Because of her hallucinogenic lipstick. She has multiple husbands and wives and an implied array of other partners that we don’t necessarily see. She can rock a sequin gown like nobody’s business.

Parinita: [laughs]

Deb: And it doesn’t hurt that she’s played by Alex Kingston who’s just gorgeous. But she is clearly a woman who is very confident and comfortable in her body. And relishes in it in many different ways including sexuality. And that’s just so unusual. She forces herself into the centre of attention and revels in that attention once she’s there. And again, that’s not something that we typically associate with female characters in general but particularly middle-age and older female characters. And so River’s just the best. [laughs]

Gif of River Song in Doctor Who. Text says: What else are you gonna do? Spank me?

Parinita: I agree. And also what you were saying earlier in terms of the shifting parameters of what even middle-aged means.

Deb: Yeah.

Parinita: Because it’s so socially, historically, geographically constructed. It’s so different in different contexts. Even now, what’s middle-aged in the US would be so different from what’s middle-aged in India. And different parts of the US and different parts of India and which intersectional identities you belong to. Because there are some that are so much more oppressed than others. When I say older, I don’t even know what that bracket is.

Deb: Yeah. [laughs]

Parinita: It’s when you become invisible to the patriarchy essentially, right?

Deb: [laughs]

Parinita: Like Stephanie Paulsell said. Another person like that in Doctor Who is Donna.

Deb: Yes.

Parinita: I loved her. She’s one of my favourite companions and when I first watched it a few years ago, I guess she was older. But now I’m like no, actually how old was she even?!

Deb: [laughs]

Parinita: She must have been in her thirties and I’m like, that’s not old. [laughs] It’s just because in Doctor Who, you’re so used to young companions – that’s all they had in the beginning. The Doctor was allowed to be old but the companions were not allowed to be old. They all had to be young women, young skinny women, young white women.

Deb: Um hmm.

Parinita: And then there was Martha and Bill, and now Yaz. But yeah it was a very specific and definite idea of a companion. And now it’s becoming more diverse, especially with Jodie’s run. Even in terms of older romances, you have Graham and Grace – one of whom was tragically killed. And one of the Doctors that I love the brief little glimpse that we get of is Doctor Ruth who seems to be this really badass older black woman Time Lord. Who’s very mysterious – we don’t know a lot about her. We get a few clues at the end of the most previous episode. But she’s so different from all the Doctors’ regenerations – apart from Peter Capaldi a little bit – who I also love. He’s been this grump of a Doctor. And she also seems to be this really stern person who doesn’t really hold with nonsense whereas Jodie is all nonsense mostly.

Deb: [laughs]

Parinita: So that comparison between the two of them was really fun for me to watch.

Deb: Yeah, I hope we get to meet her again. I hope that she comes back in some way because that would be absolutely fantastic to get to explore who she is.

Parinita: Yeah. We have no idea but I have hopes. I know the new season has gotten some critiques as well but I think it’s still trying to do more in terms of including diverse identities than any previous shows have. It’s becoming more and more inclusive and especially when we talk about older women representations in media, we’re just talking about it just in terms of age and gender. But if you have any other identities in it like race or cis versus trans or class or sexuality or sexual orientation, that’s even worse. There’s so much lesser out there for that. Which is why I love fandom.

Deb: The more marginalised identities you add in, the less people who seem to appear in these productions and these media. I think one of the things that Chibnall’s done, particularly with Doctor Who since that’s what we’re talking about here, is that he seems to have done a really great job diversifying behind the camera, diversifying in the writers’ room, diversifying the directors. And I think that in addition to diversifying the acting staff – which is wonderful and fantastic, being able to see different faces and different types of people on camera – changing what happens behind the camera changes the stories that we tell, right? Changing the acting folks in front of the camera changes how we tell those stories, but we’ve got to start with all the way back to what are the stories that we write? What are the stories that we decide are worth putting forward? I would be very interested to know what sort of age breakdown they have in the writers’ room because specifically focusing on questions of age, as we are here, because particularly in sci-fi and fantasy, the writers’ rooms tend to pretty young, they tend to be pretty white, and they tend to be pretty male.

Parinita: Yeah.

Deb: I know that he’s done a lot of work diversifying in terms of race and ethnicity, and in terms of gender in his writers’ room which is fantastic. I would be very interested to see if there’s also been diversity in terms of age so that we’re looking at what stories we even value and even want to tell.

Parinita: Yeah that’s such a good point because who gets to tell the stories is just as important as who gets to represent them visually. So I was thinking of She-Ra and the Princesses of Power on Netflix, where Noelle Stevenson is the showrunner and she’s also written this excellent graphic novel that I love called Nimona and The Lumberjanes and she’s this queer, young author. In She-Ra’s world, the default is queer and the default is female. Most of the characters there are girls and women. But now thinking about it, in terms of age, they’re all young.

Deb: Um hmm.

Parinita: Parent figures are completely absent. There are a few here and there but they’re not at the centre of the story. There’s one old woman – this batty, absent-minded old lady – who is a sort of mentor figure. But she’s mostly going on doing her own thing and she’s a really interesting character. But her story isn’t at the centre of it. Which in a world like She-Ra where they give room to a lot of different kinds of stories like it is very much about communal heroism rather than individual heroism, so they’re all coming together and all their stories get a lot of centre-stage – except old people. There aren’t really that many. There was one mother who sacrificed herself because, you know, that’s what you do. And she was a very mother mother even though she was the queen of the kingdom. So yeah, I think the age breakdown is interesting. Unless you’re an old white dude in the West or an old Indian dude in Bollywood – that’s the only sort of old you’re allowed to be. You’re not allowed to be an old woman writer or an old woman actor. Which hopefully gets better. And I think it will. There was a thread on Twitter which I’ll try and find and I’ll link to. It was basically talking about these things about diversity where they do exist, but they’re in more niche science fiction and fantasy stories and not too many people know about it.

Deb: Um hmm.

Parinita: Which is great. But I also think it’s equally if not more important to have this representation in mainstream popular media. In the Avengers, what if there was an old superhero fighting? Why do they all have to be young?

Deb: Absolutely.

Parinita: Do superheroes not get old?

Deb: The only time we see an old superhero is when Captain America comes back in the last Avengers movie. And then he’s done fighting, right?

Parinita: Yeah.

Deb: He’s retired, he’s done, he’s lived his life. And he comes back basically to say goodbye. So yeah, when you think about it in terms of writers’ rooms, the way I would have written a fifty-year-old character at twenty and the way I would write a fifty-year-old character now are drastically different, obviously.

Parinita: Absolutely. When you’re that young, you find anything beyond a certain age – “oh that’s far too old” – you can’t even imagine that. Which is not their fault.

Deb: No!

Parinita: You just need to have diversity in terms of ages.

Deb: Absolutely. I think about when I was first teaching, I had a student. They were doing an ad analysis – just a basic rhetorical analysis assignment – and he was comparing iPhones and a product called the Jitterbug which I don’t know if you have that in the UK or not but basically it’s a phone that’s targeted for older people that has limited functionality. It’s meant to basically be an emergency phone. [laughs] And he was writing in his paper that clearly the iPhone is targeted for younger audiences like people under forty because older audiences just get confused by technology. [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs]

Deb: And at that time, I was thirty-nine.

Parinita: Oh my god.

Deb: I had just started teaching; I was thirty-nine. I was like, do I have to turn in my phone next year? What happens? Does my brain …

Parinita: The phone police you know.

Deb: Yeah. Do I suddenly stop understanding how to push buttons at that point? I mean iPhones don’t even have buttons so I don’t even know why that would be a problem. But yeah, I just found that idea that at eighteen years old, forty looks ancient. [laughs]

Parinita: Yeah, but that’s why the representations are important, right?

Deb: Yes!

Parinita: It’s not just for older people to see themselves but it’s also for younger people. It’s always in terms of the dominant and marginalised. It’s not just important for the marginalised people to see themselves represented; it’s for dominant groups to also gain some perspective and gain some empathy and respect for these experiences which don’t mirror their own. And I think an older person going on adventures and having these amazing sort of stories about them would be a great story.

Deb: Absolutely.

Parinita: It would make for such a fantastic story. I would totally watch River going along on her adventures.

Deb: Oh god I would watch that absolutely.

Parinita: [laughs]

Deb: The adventures of River Song would be the best show ever! [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs] Yeah.

Deb: I mean this is just a topic that I could go on and on forever. [laughs]

Parinita: Yeah.

Deb: Because it’s just so interesting to get to dig into these characters. It’s been a lot of fun to go back and revisit some of these things that I haven’t watched for awhile. I went back to watch some of the River episodes just to get them in my head. And my daughter came up and was watching them with me and we’re like, “Oh now we got to start over again, don’t we? We have to go back and rewatch all the Doctors.”

Parinita: [laughs] Yeah that’s the feeling I’ve had with Buffy.

Deb: Just start at the Tennant years again. It’s just like yup I missed these people, I missed having them in my life.

Parinita: Yeah!

Deb: I need to go back. [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs] Absolutely. I need to get acquainted with Giles again. I’m surrounded by British accents here in the UK because that’s where I’m studying but Giles’s accent set the bar for me in terms of my introduction to Britishness and everything. [laughs]

Deb: I know. Absolutely. Giles might be the reason I fell in love with tweed.

Parinita: [laughs]

Gif of Giles. Text says: Do you want me to answer that, or shall I just glare?

Deb: He’s just such a great character. I adore Giles so much. Anthony Stewart Head is brilliant – just brilliant. And since you mentioned Giles’s accent, I love the terrible cockney accent of James Marsters as Spike.

Parinita: [laughs]

Deb: It’s fantastic too.

Parinita: Yeah. [laughs] Absolutely. But thank you so much, Deb, for being on the episode today and for having such a fun conversation and being such a fun person to talk to about these things that I love. Thank you so much for being a part of this project.

Deb: Thank you so much. It was really great to be on and talk to you.

[Outro music]

You’ve been listening to our episode on the intersection of age and gender and the ways in which the portrayal of older women in media influences real-life – and vice-versa. Huge thanks to Deb for sharing your experiences and perspectives and expanding my own. And for being such a fun person to talk to about nerdy feministy things! And thank you Jack for buying me picture books whenever you go to the supermarket by yourself (and also for the editing).

[Outro music]

I’d love to hear from you and talk to you – so any feedback, comments or critiques are very welcome! Get in touch with me on social media, leave a comment on my blog, or email me at edps@leeds.ac.uk. If you’d like to follow the podcast or the PhD project, visit my website marginallyfannish.org. Here you’ll find the podcast episodes, transcripts, episode resources and links, and my research blog. You can also receive updates on Facebook or Instagram at Marginally Fannish or on Twitter where I’m @MarginalFannish. I share episode resources on social media so you can find a bunch of excellent fan podcasts and essays to look up. If you enjoyed this podcast, please share it with anyone you think will enjoy it too.

Thanks for listening! Tune in again next time for all things fannish and intersectional!

Episode 12 The International Imagination: Exploring World Politics in the Fantastic Beasts Films

Episode Resources:

1) Movie – Fantastic Beasts And Where To Find Them 

2) Movie – The Crimes of Grindelwald

3) Movie – Deleted scenes featuring Nagini from The Crimes of Grindelwald

3) Essay – Background Remarks: Grindelwald, Fantastic Beasts, and Gay Representation

4) Essay – Notes on Claudia Kim’s Nagini

5) Fan podcast – Women of Harry Potter: Angelina Johnson with Bayana Davis

6) Fan podcast – Women of Harry Potter: Parvati Patil with Proma Khosla

7) Fan podcast – Women of Harry Potter: Cho Chang With Kathy Tu

8) Fan podcast – #Wizard Team: Blood Purity and Mixed Race Identity

9) Fan podcast – Woke Doctor Who: Harry Potter and the People of Colour

 

Episode Transcript:

This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity. If you would prefer the original, unedited version, please let me know!

Lorrie and her Nagini funkopop

[Intro music]

Welcome to Marginally Fannish, a show where we aim an intersectional lens at some of our favourite media and their fandoms.

[Intro music]

My name is Parinita Shetty and you’re listening to the twelfth episode of Marginally Fannish. In this episode, I talk to Lorrie Kim about how people of colour are represented in the Potterverse and how much Lorrie loves and identifies with Nagini. We also discuss the real-world parallels in Crimes of Grindelwald. This includes mentions of rape, exploitation and human trafficking so please consider this a content warning. Lorrie proposes that the Harry Potter books – written for children – and the Fantastic Beasts movies – written for adults – deal with similar themes in very different ways. The allegory of fascism is ever-present but is less escapist. The international politics in Crimes of Grindelwald draw from historical as well as contemporary colonial, racial and sexual violence in the real world.

A book authored by a single creator reflects their cultural, social, and political limitations. However, in movies, the actors and crew become co-creators of the story, which can sometimes make up for the author’s blind-spots. Deleted scenes in movies marginalise female characters of colour whose stories are seen as expendable. Fans’ discomfort against how these characters are portrayed can end up erasing them from the story entirely. Many fans dislike the Fantastic Beasts movies and Nagini’s story arc for lots of different reasons. While fan interpretations often differ, mainstream fandom discourse isn’t always nuanced and inclusive of multiple perspectives. Fandom has tremendous potential to promote critical thinking, but fan opinions can also influence people in limiting ways.

Find our conversation about all this and more in today’s episode.

Happy listening!

[Intro music]

Parinita: Today I’m so thrilled to be able to talk to Lorrie Kim about our shared love of the Potterverse. Lorrie is a second-generation Korean-American, bisexual woman, three years younger than J. K. Rowling. She’s married with two kids. She’s also the author of Snape: A Definitive Reading. She has enjoyed speaking at Harry Potter conferences since 2008. I’m especially excited to have Lorrie on the episode because in our brief conversations while planning the episode, she’s shown me such a different perspective of some of the critiques which are really popular in the Potter fandom. Like me, Lorrie is able to balance love and critique when it comes to Harry Potter, but some of her opinions are quite different from what I’ve encountered in mainstream fandom. So I’m really happy that Lorrie is here to expand my mind some more. Before we get to those bits though, I wanted to discuss how your initial opinions about the books are influenced by how old you were when you first read them. That’s something that you mentioned while we were planning the episode. So I read The Philosopher’s Stone when I was ten and grew up with the book series and I only came to consider and understand the more problematic aspects of the series as an adult through my engagement in fandom. Lorrie, you mentioned that you first read the series as an adult so that impacted your experience in a different way.

Lorrie: Yeah, because I’m almost the same age as J. K. Rowling, and I think I was maybe 32-33 when I first read the first five books ’cause six and seven hadn’t been written yet. I was identifying with the author somewhat because I knew her life experiences were generationally similar to mine. I’ve noticed that people who grew up with the series, as their perspectives changed into adult perspectives, they’ve re-visited them and what they remembered from the series is not necessarily what they see now when they read it as adults. And there’s a lot less of that for me because I was already an adult reading.

Parinita: So you already saw the problematic aspects when you first read them. [laughs]

Lorrie: Well when I first read them, it was very much very clear to me that I was reading something written by a white, British, heterosexual, married woman, a Christian mother. I didn’t have kids when I read the first five books, I had a kid by the time the sixth book came out. And then I was pregnant when the seventh book came out. And re-reading them as a mother changed my perspective a lot, especially around issues of pregnancy and being connected to small infants and infant development.

Parinita: Oh interesting! Did your kids grow up with the books as well?

Lorrie: They did. And what I didn’t expect – they were small children during the time that we switched over from Harry Potter books being written to all of them being written and all of the movies being finished. So I had a couple years when I wondered how old they would be before I let them read the books, not realising that by the time kids are in kindergarten and they run around together playing in the playground, they’re shouting spells at each other.

Parinita: [laughs]

Lorrie: So you know they’re spoiled for the series. So all of these concerns I had as a reader, I wasn’t taking into account what the reality was going to be for them. So by the time kids entered kindergarten, they’ve heard of something or other from Harry Potter.

Parinita: Yeah that’s a really interesting generational difference as well for people – for kids who had the entire canon. Well not the Fantastic Beasts canon but the entire Harry Potter canon that does not include the new tweets and the Pottermore stuff. But you’re so right. For me, growing up, reading this it was so different from what you picked up on in the books because none of that is anything that I’d noticed. I didn’t even notice how white the books were, just because I was growing up in India when I was reading this so I couldn’t really articulate those sort of conversations. Because I grew up reading a lot of British children’s books anyway and American children’s literature. So most of my reading diet consisted of Western books where most of the characters – where whiteness is default essentially. So I didn’t really question that in Harry Potter as much. Now, of course, when I moved to the UK, I see that the UK, even in the early 90s, would have been much more diverse than what the books show.

Lorrie: Yes.

Parinita: In The Prisoner of Azkaban, just the brief clip that I watched, there is so much more diversity within the classroom. And I was really surprised because that’s not something I had noticed when I was watching the movies because I was very much focused on the trio because that’s what the books focus on as well. So even as an audience member, that’s what I was watching. But now I was like, “Oh wait! There are a lot more people of colour in the movies!” I know with Lavender Brown’s casting, that’s had a bit of an issue where she was a black girl in the beginning.

Lorrie: Yeah.

Parinita: And then in Half-Blood Prince, suddenly when she was a main character – well not a main character but she was adjacent to a protagonist, she was suddenly a white character. But then you picked up on these themes and that didn’t dampen your enthusiasm for the books, right?

The changing faces of Lavender Brown. Image courtesy Reddit

Lorrie: Any book from authors of any culture will show the perspectives of the author and their limitations. It’s not like there’s some other country or racial identity people can come from where everything is automatically superior and they know how to write every kind of person. [laughs]

Parinita: Yeah. I feel like now with the internet and social media when these conversations are so mainstream – because for me, that’s what really made me decolonise my own mind a little bit. Growing up in India – and India still has quite a colonised mindset because we still think what the West does is better. At least in urban India and certain parts of rural and small-town India. So we would think that the US or the UK would have it all figured out. It’s just because of colonisation obviously that we still think this. Although now with the politics and the way the situation is going on both in the US and the UK, that may not be as true anymore. But in India, we have a fascist leader as well so we can’t really complain. Speaking of fascism, I’m turning to Fantastic Beasts now. One of the mainstream fandom opinions I’ve encountered before – and you came in and smashed this perception to pieces – is that most Harry Potter fans, at least the ones I’ve read and listened to on podcasts, don’t seem to think too highly of the movies. And I have to admit that these really strong opinions unfairly influenced me and put me off watching Crimes of Grindelwald for the longest time what with the critiques of the movie itself but also the whole Nagini controversy, which we’ll talk about a bit more later. But just to introduce your own thoughts about the movies, I know that unlike most fans I’ve encountered, you love the new films, right?

Lorrie: I love them! Crimes of Grindelwald is my favourite of the Potterverse films.

Parinita: I watched Crimes of Grindelwald a few days ago after consciously not watching it because of all the negativity in the fandom. And I was so surprised by how invested I was in the movie just because of how much everyone seems to dislike the movie, I thought that I would as well – which is obviously really silly now that I think about it. But yeah, I really enjoyed the film, more than the first Fantastic Beasts movie.

Lorrie: I’m curious – can you tell me what some of the things that were most compelling to you in the Crimes of Grindelwald movie?

Parinita: So I loved the characters.

Lorrie: Yeah.

Parinita: I loved Leta Lestrange, I loved her whole story. I also loved Newt right from the first movie. I loved the way that he treats other people as well as other animals. I loved his cross-cultural friendship with Jacob and how respectfully and empathetically he not only treats him but just the world in general. And I also loved the glimpses into the French Ministry of Magic. We’re used to the British magical system because that’s what we’ve grown up with. And then we saw a little bit about the American magical system in Fantastic Beasts. And I’m loving these glimpses of how different countries do it differently. Of course, it’s still very Western currently. It might change in the three other films. But I’m loving this exploration of new worlds but also the return to old ones. They came to Hogwarts and there was McGonagall for the briefest of instances in the scene and I was like, “Aaaah McGonagall! I love you!” So I liked the balance. The more alarming bit of it was I could recognise Grindelwald’s speeches – the way that he couched his bigotry and prejudice in more politically correct terms, I was like, “Oh yeah this is what happened in India. This is what’s happening in many parts of the world. This is not scary at all!” You’d mentioned that it is a film for adults as opposed to Harry Potter which is for children. And I think I really appreciated that.

Lorrie: Yeah I felt like I’m the audience for this. And that many times as an adult reading or watching the Harry Potter stories, I had to tell myself, well I’m not the audience. As an adult, this isn’t the story that I wanted. I have to remember that she’s speaking to young people between ages six and seventeen.

Parinita: Yeah. But you did say that you’d noticed some similar themes in Harry Potter – even though it’s for children – and Fantastic Beasts which is for adults. Could you tell us some of the themes you picked up on?

Lorrie: Yeah. In my opinion, it’s actually the same story. It’s just that Harry Potter is a fairy tale and that’s why when Harry goes looking for his own story, he always finds something. He wants to find his mother and father, he finds them. He finds the people who give them back to him. When children are angry and murderous in Harry Potter, an adult comes and saves them from becoming murderers. They don’t actually kill, they get stopped in time because adults are there to do their jobs. In Fantastic Beasts it’s the same but the children actually commit murder and adults are just as ineffective as we know them to be in real life. [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs] Yeah.

Lorrie: And the sexual assault in Harry Potter is often coded or softened in some way. And especially when it’s sexual assault of men on women or girls, Rowling very carefully wrote it so you can read it as sexual assault or not. She did very careful word choice so what you see there is something you need to read according to your experience and to your age. For example, there is a child of coercion in Harry Potter who is Voldemort.

Parinita: Yeah.

Lorrie: And she carefully made it so that it was a female character coercing a male character. I think she was trying to get away from the over-emotional tones of making it statistically what’s more common of men coercing women. So it’s very careful. And it’s not the common story that we encounter in real life. And in Fantastic Beasts, we have a child of coercion but oh there’s no cushioning this. What we see is some of the grossest, starkest ways that this is common in real life. Both with race and national, colonial violence as well as gender.

Parinita: Spoilers for those who haven’t watched Crimes of Grindelwald, but until you pointed that out to me that this is what happens with Leta Lestrange’s family as well as – I’ve forgotten her half-brother’s name …

Lorrie: Yusuf.

Parinita: Yusuf. Yeah!

Lorrie: Cama.

Parinita: Yeah Yusuf Cama’s family, it is rape where a white man essentially stole a black woman or kidnapped or enchanted – I think it was an enchantment.

Lorrie: It is the Imperius curse.

Parinita: Oh yeah. And essentially raped her and I think she died in childbirth? From what I remember.

Lorrie: Yes.

Parinita: Yeah. And it’s not something that you might catch on first watch, because so much happens after that scene. That revelation happens towards the end of the movie and then after that, there’s a lot of action and drama and everything. It’s like you were saying, you had to watch the movie three times to unpack all the things that are happening in that movie. I don’t know why this is – but maybe that’ll change now because academia is such a long process –  but there doesn’t seem to be as much critical analysis of these movies in academic publishing or even on the internet as much as the books have received. And I don’t know if it’s because a lot of people don’t like the movies. I have no idea why I haven’t seen so much critical analysis. Because otherwise the internet is full of Harry Potter critical analysis. The smallest of scenes is unpacked so much. Whereas the movies I don’t seem to have encountered that so much.

Lorrie: I think part of it is that with the stories we’ve had a long time to get used to the starkness and the appalling parts of the Harry Potter story, that there’s a baby that was almost killed. Some of that is really hard to deal with but it’s been awhile so we’ve accepted that part of the story, I think. The even harsher realities shown in these movies, it’s going to take a while for them to settle in. There are a lot of parts of the Fantastic Beasts and Crimes of Grindelwald movies that people rejected just ’cause the stories which are true you know [laughs] accurate stories about the world.

Parinita: Yeah.

Lorrie: They take a while to accept especially because and this was [laughs] obviously not planned but those movies came out in 2016 and 2018 during times that really fascist politics were happening in the US and the UK. And in fact the first Fantastic Beasts movie premiered during the week that Donald Trump was elected. So when you see the interviews that Rowling and the cast do in Carnegie Hall in New York to open the film, they all look really stunned and sickened.

Parinita: [laughs] Oh no.

Lorrie: I actually have a friend who had tickets to go see them talk in Carnegie Hall. And when she walked there, she had to walk past Trump Tower and there were huge police barricades all over a block of Trump Tower because there were so many protesters. So it had been less than a week. And if you look at the interviews and you see the faces of the actors, they all look like they don’t even know what to say because they had thought that this would be allegorical – an allegory about fascism. And it’s a lot less escapist. There are parts of the world where Harry Potter was never escapist. But in the US and the UK, the Harry Potter stories were for a while more stark than a lot of people were living. And now they’re not escapist at all. [laughs]

Parinita: No. And what you were saying about the difference between writing for adults versus writing for children, so in one of the podcast episodes I think they propose that witches and wizards in England must have profited off the slave trade and off colonisation – that was their reading into it. Because families like the Malfoys must have become rich like that – exploring how intertwined the Muggle world and the witching world is. And now it seems to be much more explicitly there in terms of the Lestrange family and in terms of even Nagini where these different ethnicities in the US and in the UK have – well I don’t know if Fantastic Beasts explores the UK as much. The Lestranges – they were French right?

Lorrie: Yeah.

Parinita: Yeah so then it’s much more explicit. And I wonder then if what you were saying about fans who’ve grown up with this and there’s a lot more metaphorical racism in the Harry Potter series rather than the more overt racism here. It’s all couched under house-elves and goblins and Muggle-borns. Whereas here … well I suppose here things like the magical president in the US is black. One of the critiques in the movies was that in 1920s, having a black leader when there weren’t many black people within the Ministry itself would have been strange, right?

Lorrie: That was a major … [sighs] that was one of those cases where it’s tokenism. If you’re going to have a black woman as the president but you don’t show an established structure of black wizarding culture, if she’s going to be the only black woman in high office and she’s the president, it feels a little amateur. Like okay I want to have a person of colour but without doing the enormous work of having to delve into accurately portraying all of the tensions there so I’ll make her president. That’s a strong independent position but it’s not supported.

Parinita: Especially if she was out in the Muggle world, her experiences would have been so different from her role and position in the wizarding world in the US. And that tension I think was glossed over like, “No, no let’s not think about it. She’s the leader. That’s all.”

Lorrie: And there is a place for that kind of symbolism in fantasy. Because there’s also very much a tradition in fantasy literature of, “Well if we think about real life in the 1920s for certain kinds of people, it’s heavy. But people were just as inspired and brilliant then as anywhere any time. Let’s imagine a fantasy where this is how it would have looked.” The problem is who’s writing that and how much do they know about what they’re portraying?

Parinita: Yeah.

Lorrie: And it’s tokenism because … this is where I think some of the criticism of J. K. Rowling is a little out of context. It’s true that I don’t trust her to write people of colour. It’s a very ambitious project to take this deeply imagined white British magic system that she’s invented and then try to expand that to be an international story. But I couldn’t do that. If I were gonna write a story that went to other countries that I’ve never lived in, I wouldn’t do any better. And I’m not sure how many people would. And if that means that that nobody should ever try, that doesn’t seem like the right answer to me either.

Parinita: Yeah.

Lorrie: But this is where I think the movies deserve a little more credit than they’re getting because what happens then is you go from a novel format where it’s a single author creating everything in the Harry Potter books to the Fantastic Beasts stories which only exist as films. And therefore there cannot be a single creator. And even though the stories are definitely still created from this white US-UK perspective, even so the actors in their bodies and their faces and everything that they bring to their roles, their experiences, become much greater co-creators of the characters than the actors were when they were bringing Harry Potter novels to the screen.

Parinita: Yeah. One of the things I personally saw related to that was Newt. I know that this is a theory within fandom, I don’t know if he was written like that, but he can be read as neurodiverse.

Lorrie: He has confirmed that.

Parinita: Oh he has?

Lorrie: Eddie Redmayne, yes.

Parinita: Yeah. I didn’t know if it was just the actor’s choice to portray himself like that or whether it was intentionally written into the script. I think he’s one of my favourite characters in the Potterverse, not just in the Fantastic Beasts films. With the second movie, it’s so much starker – the focus on fascism like you were saying, the fascist framework of these movies. And Grindelwald is such a symptom. He is evil and he uses all this propaganda and everything, but he’s just a symptom. Whereas so many people in the wizarding community, they will happily be fascists themselves and rule both the Muggle and magical world, as we saw in the French system. I’m sure that’s the same in the US and in the UK and wherever else they head to next. That was so scary because that was so true. And it so reflects real life. If we get rid of Trump, if we get rid of Modi, that’s not going to stop what’s happening in the US or in India, right?

Lorrie: Yes and no because also what those kinds of leaders are exploiting is fear and prejudice and tendencies that humans always have within us. And that’s overpowering empathy and generosity that we also always have within us. So partly if there’s encouragement of certain elements in human nature backed up by politics, backed up by the law and enforcement, humans we can be manipulated [laughs] in a number of different directions. We have a lot of that in us already. But the same people that can be manipulated to be very, very bigoted could also in other contexts or just through peer pressure be made to be much more accepting.

Parinita: Yeah, that’s true. What you said about stoking fears and preying on hopes is something I thought was very interesting. Again, spoilers for Crimes of Grindelwald but what happens with Queenie and how Grindelwald uses her fears of not being able to marry Jacob because the society that she comes from doesn’t allow relationships with people who are not witches and wizards. Queenie is supposed to be this really empathetic and generous and open-hearted person. And the reason that she joins Grindelwald turns that against her. I know there’s a theory that she’s a double agent. And maybe she’ll come back. But I find it more fascinating that she would have joined him because she’s doing it for what for her are the correct reasons.

Lorrie: Oh, I have so many theories about Queenie. [laughs]

Parinita: Oh really? What are some of your theories?

Lorrie: Well I think she was drugged.

Parinita: Hmm. With the tea that she had in the house? Yeah maybe.

Lorrie: And also just because she’s neurodiverse, she can’t control her Legilimency and it causes her daily discomfort. It causes discomfort in her closest relationships and she can get overwhelmed. I think she’s vulnerable. When we see her first meeting Grindelwald, the moment he walks into the room, she is trembling. She leaps to self defense and she says, “I know what you are, stay away.” And just through sheer power, he overpowers her during that scene. He just keeps walking toward her, she lowers her wand. By the time he’s done talking, he’s won her over. He’s just more powerful than she is.

Parinita: Yeah. And Grindelwald is really good at manipulating and overpowering even someone like Credence, of course, who is much younger – there’s that age dynamic there. But he was the same with Dumbledore. And that was one of Dumbledore’s origin stories where he fell for … what was the phrase? I’ve forgotten that very fascist phrase that he used.

Lorrie: Oh, for the greater good.

Parinita: For the greater good, that’s right. So I mean if Dumbledore can fall for this – which from the narrative, Dumbledore is supposed to be wise and critical and everything but yeah he fell for this as well. So why wouldn’t other people?

Lorrie: Well what we see about Dumbledore is that he already had those wishes in him and Grindelwald just allowed him to suppress his conscience so that he could give in to those wishes. And that’s why Dumbledore says it has to be Newt to fight against Grindelwald because the kind of personality Newt has, he doesn’t have the kind of vulnerabilities that Grindelwald is used to exploiting.

Parinita: Yeah.

Lorrie: Even middle-aged Dumbledore, when he looks in the Mirror of Erised, his deepest desire is to go back to being melded with this man who is his equal even if he is also the most evil person. [laughs]

Parinita: Yeah. Grindelwald seems to be just as if not more terrible and powerful and evil as Voldemort. Okay you defeated a fascist forty years ago and here comes another which again, no parallels with real life at all! [laughs] Which was again much starker in the movies – maybe it’s also the visual component and maybe it’s deliberate, but the parallels with the real world and the magical world were much starker. You mentioned that you really liked the internationally political aspect of the movies where it explores both real-world racial and fictional world Pureblood politics and prejudices? Something that you’d mentioned which I found really interesting was the Korean perspective and Korean history.

Lorrie: Oh boy yeah. I think you can’t have an international story without delving right into the middle of the huge upheavals in racial and colonial violence that have shaped world history. I don’t think you can have an international story without that. And especially because this film series is about the international tensions that gave rise to World War II. So it has to be about race, about fascism, about genocide. That’s the story that she’s taking on. And then what I love what she’s doing with the Fantastic Beasts films so far based on our sample of two movies. [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs] Yeah.

Lorrie: She goes to a place and she tells you the story that that place does not want to talk about. So when she takes you to New York, there’s American capital punishment, there’s puritanism and witch hunts. And then she takes you to France and there’s this horrendous colonial violence, racial violence. When a culture feels guilty about a story, it wants to put it away or suppress it and that’s the theme of the Fantastic Beasts stories – other creatures, are they beings or are they monsters? And Grindelwald says they’re not inferior, they’re other. Nagini and Credence are both perfect examples – how would you classify them? Newt and his textbooks explore that question perfectly. Do you classify this being as a beast or as a person? You have the centaurs who say, “Oh we could be classified as people but we don’t want that. We reject that. Put us with the beasts.” And in the first movie especially when we saw people talk about Credence, some people said “it” and some people said “he”.

Parinita: Oh yeah, that’s right.

Lorrie: And that’s the difference between Newt and the executioner Grimmson. Grimmson is all excited to go hunting. And Newt is horrified. [laughs] So when we see the circus, which is another beautiful melding of fantasy and real history because the circus of course is a place where humans who are or were freaks find a life that is both better and worse than a mainstream life. And definitely a culture where people who are freaks bond together. And put up with some really frightening, exploitative conditions. So Skender, who’s the circus master, talks about them as his freaks and as his under-beings. And he’s exploiting Nagini as a freak and as an under-being. Even though there are a number of reasons why this isn’t true, but for my feelings Nagini is the first Korean woman in Potterverse. And one way in which that might not be true is because we’re not sure if Cho Chang may have been meant to be Korean.

Parinita: Right, yeah.

Lorrie: And the thing about Cho Chang, of course, is she’s written so that she’s of no race. You could put any race on her and she’s –

Parinita: Generically East Asian.

Lorrie: Yeah.

Parinita: She’s just an East Asian name.

Lorrie: It’s an amateur move from a writer who’s not familiar with a culture and trying to portray it and it comes off as strange tokenism.

Parinita: I mean Parvati and Padma Patil were similar as well. They could have been white. There was nothing there.

Lorrie: And that’s why when we say that Hermione is black, Hermione is a beautifully written character of colour because she’s a full human. [laughs]

Parinita: Yeah. [laughs]

Fan art of black Hermione

Fan art of black Hermione

Lorrie: And her story has elements of being a minority. But when Rowling sets out from the top to write somebody who is signalled to be a person of colour, then that’s not something that you trust as being confident and full.

Parinita: Yeah.

Lorrie: So to me, Cho Chang is not of any particular race. And I’m not angry about it either. I’m just like, well that’s as much as that author can do. And I’m not going to waste my time expecting her to do any better because I don’t think she can. And I have seen improvements in Rowling’s ability to write people of colour and the improvements are so slow [laughs] and incremental and small and not a direct line of improvement either that it [sighs] it’s … you know be realistic. [laughs]

Parinita: Yeah. And I suppose again that reflects maybe just the maturity that you had as a reader and as an adult when you first read the series versus say someone like me and a lot of fans who are younger than me who demand instant change. Maybe not instant change but we want her to be better sooner than or maybe even more than she’s capable of. I would be happier if she hired a research assistant or a co-writer or someone who is from the culture to write with her. Just so that there would be more authenticity. On the other hand, with fandom discourse, I get a lot of my ideas from fandom because – I’ve mentioned this on the podcast before. So in India, mainstream education isn’t really equipped to teach you how to think critically. That’s not something that’s in the curriculum. So I didn’t grow up learning how to think; I grew up in school learning what to think and parroted those answers in exams.  And it’s only fandom that through its multiple perspectives and diverse opinions and questioning of canon and expanding canon and exploring all those missing gaps, it allowed me to imagine differently. And that’s another reason I’m doing this PhD project. But thanks to you I realised, which is why I’m so excited to have you on board here as a participant, is that fan discourse isn’t always as nuanced and inclusive of multiple perspectives as I give it credit for. And one of the things that you’ve completely given me a different perspective from mainstream fandom is of the character of Nagini. And I know that you were uncomfortable about the hostility exhibited by some of the fan podcasts that I’d suggested which made me think that even though I credit fan discussions to expanding my mind in many ways, it’s still quite limited. And sometimes one narrative takes over and you might not get a chance to explore other opinions. With Nagini I think the controversy was that she represents a stereotype and a trope of Eastern Asian women in Western media, if I’m not wrong.

Lorrie: Oh. [sighs] It’s hard to represent what the objection to Nagini was because it’s not the same as what I think I saw on the screen. As I was saying, I didn’t think there was a Korean woman in Potterverse. So then when it was in 2017 when they announced that a Korean woman is going to be playing Nagini, I was so thrilled. And so from that day I have a tweet.

Parinita: Yeah. [laughs]

Lorrie: “A Korean woman in Potterverse. *instant identification.* 1) Neville killed me, oh noes 2) [gasps] “milk Nagini” GROSSSSSS 3) Impersonating Bathilda Bagshot’s corpse? That was a lot to ask of a snake! 4) Ugh, I had to eat Charity Burbage! 5) OH MY GOD I ATE SNAPE”

Parinita: [laughs]

Lorrie: And I just started laughing and laughing and laughing. And it was so much fun. I followed Claudia Kim on Instagram and she posted a screencap. The movie of Chamber of Secrets was on her TV and she showed herself running to watch like “Oooh oooh oooh!” And then she showed a picture of little twelve-year-old Neville and her caption was, “Oh no Neville! Aaaaah!”

Parinita: [laughs]

Lorrie: [laughs] And when she wrote about Nagini, she would write, “Nagini, I love you.” And I was so excited. I had seen her before so I was so interested to see where this would go. And then it was like being punched repeatedly in the stomach when there was this huge outcry like, “Oh no this is terrible. If we have a Korean actress in Potterverse, then the story has to be about stereotypes and it’s racist and get the Korean woman out of there.” People were writing that her casting had ruined the franchise. [sighs] And they hadn’t even seen the movie yet.

Parinita: Yeah.

Lorrie: The more nuanced issue which I understand is that Nagini the character was written to be from Indonesia. And there had been a famous Indonesian actress cast and she couldn’t play the role ’cause she was pregnant. So they had to find another actress and eventually the one they found happened to be Korean. That’s partly like, “Oh well you know any Asian will do.” And that I understand. But what was not intended and yet happened in my mind that this makes Nagini Korean to me. And she’s not Korean-American. She’s Korean. She has a career at home and a following. And so it’s exciting that a Korean actress is going to become a part of this enormous international franchise. Let’s see how this happens. And the thing is if you think about Korean women in the time leading up to World War II, there was no Korea. Korea was colonised by Japan and you do not want to be colonised by Japan. Oh my god!

Parinita: [laughs] Yup.

Lorrie: So this is a political issue that is actually very divisive between Japan and Korea currently. And is responsible for major diplomatic conflicts and trade wars between Korea and Japan right now – that as part of the colonisation, the Japanese military plundered Korean female populations for human trafficking. And this is actually something that the Japanese military did with a number of Asian countries leading up to and during World War II including Indonesia. But really the bulk of it was huge numbers of Koreans. And there are a couple of those women that are still alive. And the degree of human trafficking obviously is something that a lot of Koreans don’t want as the thing to represent the country in the international imagination.

Parinita: Yeah.

Lorrie: Because it’s just too incredibly painful. But there’s a problem with that which is that it can go into shame and silencing the actual people who went through that. And wanting to hide their stories. I don’t want to single out anybody on social media because there is a whole lot of outcry against the whole concept of Nagini being played by a Korean woman. But some of the kinds of critiques that I saw said things like, “Oh yeah sure great what a positive, strong, independent woman!” And to me what that said is okay then you tell me then how do you want us to be shown in the story for your satisfaction? You make up the character that you can tell me, okay now you can come be in the story. And then people said something that is absolutely not true, absolutely not supported. Which is that they said, “Oh Nagini was his lover” No. There was nothing like that with Voldemort and Nagini. “This is his slave. She served a white man.” Okay I don’t actually think that race was the major component of the Nagini-Voldemort relationship. [laughs] First of all species, not race.

Parinita: Yeah. [laughs] And presumably she only met Voldemort after she got trapped in her body as a snake. This is just conjecture, I don’t know.

Lorrie: Yeah, we don’t know. Because at the time that this movie Crimes of Grindelwald was taking place, Voldemort has just been born. And we know that in Goblet of Fire, he shows that Nagini is his mother figure. So we don’t know if there’s some sort of substitution in Voldemort’s story. We have no idea where this is going to go. But it made me think [sighs] we don’t actually know a lot of the Nagini story but people have images in their minds of Asian women stereotypes that they’re uncomfortable with and they don’t want them. And to me that came down to this role should have gone to a white woman so that viewers wouldn’t be uncomfortable. And people are saying, “Well this is a terrible story. She dies in captivity. And this is racist.” And I thought how is that different from like half the Potteverse characters who have the same kind of death?

Parinita: Yeah. Because you’d written that in your blog post. Your blog post was really so illuminating. I watched the movie and then I watched Nagini’s deleted scenes. For me, Nagini was just one of the several characters that I was really interested in. I was actually interested in all of the characters in Crimes of Grindelwald just because they all added something different to the story in a very different way than what I was used to from the Harry Potter movies. Because obviously I’ve always read the books first. So I know exactly what’s going to happen in the movies. Whereas here, like you said, they’ve only ever been movies so I don’t know what’s going to happen in the new movies. It’s almost like being a teenager again when we were waiting for the new books to come out. In Crimes of Grindelwald I loved the last scene – I don’t know if it was the last scene – where there’s Nagini, and I think Yusuf and Newt and this whole ragtag bunch of people at Hogwarts. And presumably they are going to go on further adventures in the other three movies which I’m really waiting for. I like that they’re from different backgrounds magical, non-magical, Obscurial – well, Credence is not there anymore in that ragtag team but he will play a role. I’m just interested in how they manage to pull all of that together and I’m excited to see that. But getting back to your blog post, it was so illuminating to me because it included this perspective about especially how there are so many characters who are used and abused by Voldemort. And all these other tragedies that exist in canon in Harry Potter. But just focusing on this one character to almost erase her out of the story where they would rather not have her than have her in what they think is a problematic way.

Lorrie: Well I mean if considering the story and the era it’s – you know history was problematic. [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs] Yeah.

Lorrie: There were some critiques of her storyline that I think are willfully untrue. Simply false. If people are saying well she doesn’t have agency, when you look at the actual plot line of Nagini in this movie, it’s amazing. So she is exploited. And just like your classic Harry Potter message, she joins forces with someone else who is powerless. And through their bond of affection and resistance, they escape their imprisonment. And we don’t have a lot of people in the Potterverse who are able to manage their own prison break.

Parinita: Yeah.

Lorrie: But these two do it. And neither one of them could have done it alone. They plot together, they make a strategy and there’s a moment when Skender is trying to get her to perform and she’s just making him look stupid. She’s not responding because she’s having eye contact with Credence like, “Is this going to happen? Are we going to bond? Are we going to go from being two captives to being free? Is our bond strong enough?” And to me that was a huge wish fulfillment because she’s being sexually exploited obviously with all the emphasis on how beautiful she is. But she’s in a way protected by the bars – the audience can’t touch her. And she can turn into a snake that can attack Skender and her best friend is an Obscurial.

Parinita: Yeah.

Lorrie: And I thought oh this is a good fantasy. And then they escape together. And then the two deleted scenes – I had a sorrow and anger when I eventually saw the deleted scenes because to me that’s a classic example of when a woman of colour’s story is marginalised. These scenes were written and filmed and they were taken out of the main movie. Fortunately, we got them in the deleted scenes but the fact that they were edited out is marginalisation.

Parinita: Yeah.

Lorrie: And her story is so much more full. This happens with Leta also. So in one deleted scene with Nagini, she and Credence are stealing food. They’re caring for each other. And she’s trying to hide from him that her skin is becoming more and more scaly. Because the Maledictus curse is in women through the female line, where there’s a curse on your family and eventually you turn into an animal. Which is as strong a human trafficking metaphor as any. So she doesn’t want him to see the scaliness because she’s afraid and ashamed and he makes her stop hiding it and he kisses it. And it’s so much like, beast or being, I see you’re a person, I love you.

Parinita: Yeah.

Lorrie: And then there’s a parallel to that in the other deleted scene which to me is so beautiful. I wish they had kept it. We see them waking up in the morning and Credence is sleeping in Nagini’s arms and you realise this is the most closeness he’s ever had in his life. He’s found peace, he’s found something. But then also every time Nagini sleeps, she has to turn into a snake. And every time she turns into a snake, she has a harder and harder time turning back. So there’s a close-up on her eyes. She hasn’t been sleeping. She has lain with Credence and comforted him so he could sleep. But she has stayed awake because she wants to be with him as a human. And that’s such a feeling of oppression – that hyper alertness.

Parinita: Yeah.

Lorrie: And then she tells him, “Make it happen because we’re free.” So he’s clearly told her about the Obscurus. And he’s never brought it forth voluntarily before. And then she does something that is so beautiful I can’t even stand it. It’s so beautiful where she lets it pass through her. At first it flies around in a way that you’re like you know what, this is beautiful too. The Obscurus has beauty in it. And then it passes right through her body showing, “What you are, this thing that’s the worst of you, it can’t hurt me. I can take it. I can take all of you.” And that acceptance to me. Their relationship is so powerful. And then she goes with him to look for his mother, which is such an emotional scene.

Parinita: Yeah.

Lorrie: And she can sense that there’s something wrong the whole time and that hyper-alertness. There’s a Korean word [says Korean word] and I thought this is one of the reasons why Nagini as acted, Nagini the character as co-created by the script writers and the actress reads to me as so Korean, is that she acts out the character so much non-verbally with micro-expressions that I recognise from Korean culture. And this is something you can’t get in a novel. Or you can if the author is really in tune with that deep, nuanced identification with that kind of character, which we know J. K. Rowling can’t do with a lot of people of colour. But if you hire an actress, who’s a really good actress, she’ll do it for you.

Parinita: I love that you’ve shared this nuanced analysis and exploration of Nagini because I wouldn’t have been able to pick up on any of this. Just as someone who isn’t familiar with Korean culture. You are so you could pick out on these micro-expressions and things that Claudia Kim acted. And just even the minute details, you’re right, it fleshes out the character so much and it’s such a tragedy that it didn’t make its way into the actual film. And of course, there are three more films that are going to be coming out so hopefully she will have a bigger role to play. I think she will especially since Credence has now gone over to the dark side as we saw in the second movie. It’s quite sad that he didn’t choose Nagini’s better influence and fell prey to Grindelwald, but I have hope that will change. It’s such a refreshing perspective to be able to see things in a different light. That’s why I started this podcast and that’s why I love fandom and fan discussions and fan criticisms. Just because it allows me to see the same text in so many different ways based on who’s the one who’s interpreting it. Viewing it from different cultures. And I love that you have this really detailed and nuanced analysis of Nagini, which makes me like her so much more as well.

Lorrie: I love her. And she gets a line that shows she has the same beliefs as Dumbledore. When Credence is leaving her, he says, “He knows who I am.” And Nagini says, “He knows what you were born, not who you are.” And that is exactly what Dumbledore teaches Harry.

Parinita: Yeah.

Lorrie: And with J. K. Rowling, there are times when she gives characters lines to say that let you the reader or viewer know okay this is where the real message is. It’s important that this line comes from somebody who really is enslaved or trafficked or powerless. Because that’s actually the core message of both Harry Potter and Fantastic Beasts – listening to the truth in each being no matter how powerless or how much of a freak or under-being they are.

Parinita: Oh, I love that.

Lorrie: You know something that I didn’t ever think until just now when we were talking, is that when you talk about the ending group shot of all of these ragtag people after most of them have lost something or someone – that division that happens when some people join Grindelwald and others don’t, it’s very much South and North Korea after the Korean war situation.

Parinita: Oh!

Lorrie: Which I’m sure happened in so many different countries, in so many parts of history where there’s a conflict that goes right down the middle. And I think you can go to any war and find that. Where there’s individual families, siblings – sometimes it’s because their beliefs are different. Other times it’s just plain chance or tragedy. You know I have relatives that I’ve never met. And just you were so close and the next day you’ll never see each other again and there’s no telling – you don’t know if they’re alive or dead.

Parinita: I mean we had something similar. It’s not as drastic as North Korea where you can’t get in and you don’t know what’s going on but with Independence, we had the Partition in India where India was divided into India and Pakistan.

Lorrie: Yup.

Parinita: And that had this same kind of thing where overnight people, depending on their religion or just which side of the border they fell on, it didn’t matter where they felt home or where they felt was the most comfortable place to be. They had to move, they had to upend their lives and we are seeing the impact of this still today. Where now of course politicians are taking advantage of this and making those lines much starker between Hindu and Muslim and Pakistan and India which all goes back to things that you didn’t really have control over. Or some people had more control over others. And ugh just the violence of colonisation

Lorrie: Yeah.

Parinita: Which yeah you see in this movie as well. And you wouldn’t see it perhaps so starkly like you said in the books. And I’m really excited to see what happens next. Well, there might be a lot of tragedy coming so excited might not be the correct emotion but I’m looking forward anyway.

Lorrie: I want the story. The reason that Credence leaves even the greatest, the only nurturing affection he’s ever known, he has the same greatest driving force as Harry Potter did. He wants to know his story. He doesn’t care about anything compared to that. And Harry too, the one thing that was the most powerful driver for him was, I want to know my own story. That was even more powerful than his saving people thing. [laughs]

Parinita: Yeah. [laughs]

Lorrie: He wants his birth-right back. And Credence will give up anything – even though he knows that this is the worst person in the world who’s already betrayed him. And at one point he says, just give me my story, then you can kill me. He doesn’t even care about being alive as much as he cares about his story.

Parinita: Oh, I love that parallel between Credence and Harry. And it’s not something that I thought of but yeah such different directions. And such different origins as well.

Lorrie: Yeah. I think it is the same story but for adults because one of the critiques of Harry Potter the character was like oh well for someone who was treated that badly, he sure seems normal and healthy. And well, it’s a fairy tale. But in real life, you go through what Harry went through, you’re much more likely to find Credence. [laughs]

Parinita: Yeah that’s true. Oh now I really want the story as well. I want to know what happens next.

Lorrie: I can’t wait for it.

Parinita: Crimes of Grindelwald was such a surprisingly good movie. Surprising based purely on my own sort of preconceived notions that were influenced by fandom. But I loved that movie and I want to know more. Lorrie thank you so much for being a part of the project and just even for the conversation and expanding my mind in so many different ways. Thank you so much for being here!

Lorrie: Thank you. Thank you for giving me something so fun to think about during this time that we’re all locked up at home [laughs] during a plague!

Parinita: Yeah, I mean Harry Potter is something that I’m returning to right now just because it’s something that’s given me so much comfort while I was growing up. It’s also giving me comfort now during the pandemic. As much as I criticise all the problematic elements of it, I’ll still do that, but I still love the books.

Lorrie: I think the reason why people including me feel so bitter and heartbroken and enraged when Rowling shows prejudice or shortcomings is because when she knows what she’s talking about, when she’s confident and she’s on target, the glory of the truths in her stories feel so satisfying. That thrill. And then when that resounding satisfaction stops in such a rude and shocking way, it’s heart-breaking. Why can you do this for some parts of the world and not others? We want you to keep providing it. And that’s a very harsh distinction between the satisfaction of feeling the story and the recognition that one person churning out stories is going to have one person’s limitations.

Parinita: Yeah but just following up on that – I’m also glad that she seems to have raised fans that are willing to stand up to her bigotry. When she tweets out something transphobic, as she did in December.

Lorrie: Oh boy.

Parinita: I know we didn’t have time to go into that but we did talk about it during our planning and just for those listening, both Lorrie and I are very stridently against transphobia of any kind and against J. K. Rowling’s transphobia specifically. I don’t think I’ve encountered any part of the fan community that hasn’t stood up to her blatant transphobia. I might just inhabit some really nice spaces, I guess, but I love seeing that everybody took the fact that Harry Potter was so important to us and we keep that but J. K. Rowling’s transphobia and her prejudice and bigotry, yeah, we can do without that.

Lorrie: Yeah. She can’t live up to the ideals. That doesn’t make the ideals untrue.

Parinita: Ah I love that! That’s a great way to end this episode. Again, thank you so much for being here.

Lorrie: Thank you!

[Outro music]

You’ve been listening to our episode on how women of colour are represented in the Potterverse in general and in Crimes of Grindelwald in particular. Thank you so much Lorrie for helping me see things in a different light and for reiterating how important multiple and nuanced perspectives remain in conversations and critiques. You should definitely check out her blog at lorriekimcom.wordpress.com. And thank you Jack for helping me climb a tree for the first time in my 30-year-old life (and also for the editing).

[Outro music]

You can now listen to Marginally Fannish on SpotifyAppleGoogle, or SoundCloud. I’d love to hear from you and talk to you – so any feedback, comments or critiques are very welcome! Get in touch with me on social media, leave a comment on my blog, or email me at edps@leeds.ac.uk. If you’d like to follow the podcast or the PhD project, visit my website marginallyfannish.org where you’ll find both the podcast episodes and the blog. You can also receive updates on Facebook or Instagram at Marginally Fannish or on Twitter where I’m @MarginalFannish. If you enjoyed the podcast, please share it with anyone you think will enjoy it too.

Thanks for listening! Tune in again next time for all things fannish and intersectional!

Episode 9 Destabilise Heterosexuality As A Default: Queer Representation in Media and Fandom

Episode Resources:

1) Fan podcast – Queer As Fiction Harry Potter, But Gayer

2) Fan podcast – Imaginary Worlds Imaginary Deaths

3) Fan podcast – Imaginary World The Power of the Makeover Mage

4) Fan podcast – Witch, Please Witch, Please; Live & Unruly

5) Fan podcast – The Gayly Prophet Queer Children Are Our Future

6) Essay – Deconstructing Disney: The Princess Problem of ‘Frozen II’

Episode Transcript:

This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity. If you would prefer the original, unedited version, please let me know!

Photo of Diana Floegel

[Intro music]

Welcome to Marginally Fannish, a show where we aim an intersectional lens at some of our favourite media and their fandoms.

[Intro music]

My name is Parinita Shetty and you’re listening to the ninth episode of Marginally Fannish. In this episode, I chat with Diana Floegel about queer representation in media and how fandom engages with queerness.

Media industries and their cultural products reflect the structural heteronormativity prevalent in the real world. Mainstream media has popularised a more palatable version of queerness. It expects assimilation into the heteronormative default rather than exploring alternative structures. It also largely overlooks intersectional identities. Queer media representations – when they do exist – perpetuate limited narratives of being queer. They also promote troubling tropes and stereotypes which further reflect the lack of structural diversity.

Fandom can act as an alternative to mainstream media where people encounter queer ideas and content for the first time. Fan communities explore different sexual and gender identities. Fan campaigns demanding more queer representation in media can popularise fringe ideas and expand mainstream imaginations. Fan spaces feature both debates against as well as examples of the more problematic aspects of queer representation. Even fandom can reinforce dominant ideas when it features different levels of acceptance for different kinds of queerness. However, some fan communities have offered a supportive space for queer people and their experiences.

Find our conversation about all this and more in today’s episode.

Happy listening!

[Intro music]

Parinita: I’m so excited to have Diana Floegel on the podcast today. Diana is a doctoral candidate in Information Science at the School of Communication and Information at Rutgers University in the US. Their research generally applies a queer theoretical lens to phenomena surrounding people’s information creation practices, sociotechnical assemblages and information institutions such as libraries. And their dissertation work specifically focuses on queer people who write slash fanfiction. Diana has lifelong love-hate relationships with fandoms ranging from Harry Potter to musical theatre to Batwoman. I love it. Their research interests inspired today’s episode where we’re going to look at queer representation in media and in Harry Potter as well as how fandom engages with queerness. So to begin with, Diana, could you tell us a little bit about your own experiences with the topic either as a researcher, a fan, or even from your own personal life?

Diana: Yeah absolutely. So, hi everyone. So in terms of my personal life, I’ve been a fan since probably before I can remember. When I was younger, I was obsessed with a small selection of picture books and I started writing self-insert fanfiction.

Parinita: [laughs]

Diana: Which is rather embarrassing. [laughs] But I started writing self-insert fanfiction probably in elementary school. And started reading fanfiction in high school. And it was really important to read slash especially then because there was even less queer representation in media than there is now. And so that’s where I found a lot of what I wanted to see in terms of particularly lesbian and gay folks and relationships in fanfiction. And so when I started researching as a career, as a PhD student, there’s some gaps in my discipline that I think fanfiction can fill and thinking about queer-authored fanfiction can fill. Or can start to fill. I identify as a constructivist epistemically and so it made sense to me to do some work around queer-authored fanfiction.

Parinita: That sounds amazing. And it’s also really similar to my own experiences a little bit. Right from writing self-insert fanfic when I was in primary school [laughs]. But I did it in my head. So The Baby-Sitters Club and Sweet Valley, I used to read a lot of that when I was younger. And I created this new school which was very much a copy of both Sweet Valley and The Baby-Sitters Club but I just came up with new characters – all of which I wanted to be and sort of represented me a little bit.

Diana: Amazing.

Parinita: [laughs] Because that’s what you do as a kid.

Diana: [laughs]

Parinita: Queerness is not something that I encountered in school or my family because it’s not something that, at least in my community, nobody really broached these topics about different gender or sexual identities. So my first encounter with these ideas was in fandom as well, when as a thirteen-year-old, I discovered Harry Potter fanfiction on this website called Mugglenet. And even then I wasn’t really a romance reader but you can’t be – or at least then you couldn’t be – a part of the fanfic community even as a lurker which I was – without coming across shipping in some form. Where fans imagine which characters would end up or should end up in relationships. I know you know this, this is just for people who might not know this. [laughs]

Diana: [laughs] Oh absolutely, yeah.

Parinita: So this was before all the books had come out, so the main ships at that time that I first encountered were either Harry/Hermione or Harry/Ginny or Hermione/Ron. There were these huge shipping wars that used to happen which I used to ignore because I used to just read and write really random fic. There were no relationships in it. But it was only when I spent more time in fandom that I discovered slash shipping. So queering canonically straight characters like Harry and Draco – which again, for people who don’t know what slash is. Though when I re-read The Philosopher’s Stone a few weeks ago, I couldn’t un-see that ship now.

Diana: Oh a hundred percent. [laughs]

Fan art of Draco and Harry inter-twined in Christmas lights with Pansy on one side and Hermione on the other. Text says - Draco: I swear to Merlin Parkinson if you don't release me THIS INSTANT I will make you SUFFER I will make your whole FAMILY suffer I will murder you in your sleep and I will make sure it looks like an accident you nasty little excuse for a friend I - Pansy: Oh, DO shut up 'Potter this', 'Potter that'. it has to STOP. We'll be back in two hours. Harry: Hermione - Hermione: I'm SORRY Harry but this is the only thing she's actually right about.

Drarry fan art courtesy Pinterest

Parinita: Right?! I mean I’m not really a shipper myself, that’s not how I read books. Romance is something that’s secondary, it gets in the way of the plot mostly for me. Just in any books. But now that I read it, I was like, “Oh my god Draco definitely has a giant crush on Harry!” [laughs] Even if it’s not romantic, I feel like he definitely wants to be friends with him. Maybe watching Cursed Child – because in that same week, I watched Cursed Child in London – and maybe that had a roundabout effect on my interpretation. But I can’t un-see it now. Draco and Harry, yeah, that’s my ship. [laughs]

Photo of Palace Theatre London with Harry Potter and the Cursed Child

Palace Theatre, London

Diana: Yeah! Cursed Child is – so first of all, I really relate to what you said about not having any sort of conceptions or examples or representations of queerness around you in your everyday life.

Parinita: Yeah.

Diana: Or your non-media, non-fandom life. Because I had a very similar experience. I grew up in a family where I’m the only openly queer person.

Parinita: Yeah.

Diana: And grew up Catholic and in a fairly conservative area and so it was really nowhere. So fandom was very key in that sense. But Cursed Child specifically is so queerbaity! So when I say queerbaiting

Parinita: Oh my god yes!

Diana: Oh my god.

Parinita: [laughs]

Diana: So I mean there’s this very significant, very – particularly to a lot of queer folks – very obvious subtext that these characters are more than friends, right? [laughs] Or more than … in some sort of platonic relationship that never actually comes to fruition.

Parinita: I mean not just to queer folks. I am very cisgender, I’m very heterosexual.

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: And Scorpius and Albus are definitely a couple. [laughs]

Diana: Oh my god yes! Jesus!

Screenshot of a tweet by @annabroges. Text says: if you're sad that it's monday just imagine all the holidays harry and draco are going to have to spend together once their sons get married

Image courtesy BuzzFeed

Parinita: Like I said, I don’t usually look for subtext in these things. And after listening to a few of the podcasts, but even otherwise through fandom, I know a lot of queer folks do queer the canon a lot – looking for subtext and things. And with disabilities as well.

Diana: Oh definitely, yeah.

Parinita: I’ve spoken about this with somebody else. Just because you don’t see yourself represented so you do that. And with racebending as well.

Diana: Um hmm.

Parinita: But with Scorpius and Albus, it’s so obvious. There’s no subtext there. Spoilers – but whatever he has a crush on Rose which seems so crowbarred in.

Diana: Oh yeah.

Parinita: Right? Yeah, no. They’re definitely a couple. [laughs]

Diana: They are. And I will also freely admit I am a shipper. I think there’s a little bit of a misconception, particularly from folks who are outside of fandom, that all fic and all slashed or queer fic is ship-related fic.

Parinita: Hmm.

Diana: And it’s not. It’s definitely not. But I am a shipper. [laughs] And I love a good ship fic, I love tropey-ness in ships.

Parinita: [laughs] Yeah.

Diana: So I will freely admit that. And my partner and I sometimes get into very happy fun little tiffs about this. When I’ll be like, “Oh they’re definitely a couple.” And she’s like, “All they did was look at each other!”

Parinita: [laughs]

Diana: No, they were meant to be. [laughs]

Parinita: I love it. I think I do this with some things, with middle-grade and young adult fantasy books sometimes. And I think a lot of fandom research does look at shipping – not shipping, but does look at a lot of fanfiction communities.

Diana: Um hmm.

Parinita: At least the research that I’ve come across. So I feel like I’m the oddball who doesn’t ship and who’s not having – I’ve fallen into that mainstream idea.

Diana: [laughs]

Parinita: Because I’m usually a lurker.

Diana: Hmm.

Parinita: I used to write fanfiction as a teenager. I wrote a sitcom version of Voldemort and the Death Eaters [laughs].

Diana: Amazing.

Parinita: So there was no shipping there. But yeah, after years of being a lurker, I’ve come back into creating things with this podcast. But yeah sorry that was a sidetrack.

Diana: Oh no, no.

Parinita: So something that you mentioned as well and something I think in the Queer As Fiction episode, one of the hosts Ashly mentioned, where she shared her coming out story.

Diana: Um hmm.

Parinita: Because she grew up super Christian as well. Which seems to be a big reason in the US for the tension with coming out and finding support. Which I was thinking is so different from India.

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: Just the context – or at least the reason for why coming out would be difficult. In India, I think it’s less about religion. It’s more about just social pressures and social conditioning. It’s a very patriarchal, very heterosexual –

Diana: Um hmm.

Parinita: Well … not traditionally. Not thousands of years ago. But after the British Empire came, we still had their outdated, obsolete laws against homosexuality. And it was illegal and then it was legal again for a bit and then it was illegal again and now it’s legal again. So there was a big back and forth in the Supreme Court in India as well. But it’s still not very mainstream. [Recently, a queer student committed suicide in Goa, India after being forced into conversion therapy by her family]

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: In the big cities in India, we have pride parades and things. And I’d gone for a pride parade as a teenager because – again, because that’s what I discovered through fandom and I was like, “No, I have to support this now that I’m seeing it in my real  community. So I should go and support it as an ally.” With media, I know that in the West there is still a lack of representation of queerness onscreen and in books.

Diana: Um hmm.

Parinita: But so much more than what you’d see in Indian media. Even though now there is more of a push-back against that.

Diana: Yeah. So that’s really interesting. Because I think you’re right. The US context is an interesting one because I mean first of all, we are the colonisers, right? [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs]

Diana: That’s sort of what the US does. But we have this … [sighs] very limited I think amount of acceptance. Where there are palatable versions of queerness that I think have gone mainstream and have hit mainstream media. And so a lot of that intersects with race, right. So white people who are queer tend to be represented more than people of colour who are queer.

Parinita: Yeah.

Diana: And cisgender people are represented far more than trans folks and nonbinary folks. And there are very limited ways in which trans people are represented too. And so there’s a lot of this still structural cis- and heteronormativity that happens that can seep into media. And even outside of media, right? It’s always interesting to me that the most known, I would argue, landmark in LGBTQ+ rights has to do with marriage equality, right?

Parinita: Yeah.

Diana: And marriage is a traditionally normative institution. And some folks might say – now listen, I say this as someone who thinks that getting married is a beautiful thing for a lot of folks. And also really important in terms of being protected and being with a person that you love etc. But we have to assimilate into what the heteronormative default is rather than think about alternative or reoriented structures.

Parinita: Absolutely. That’s something I was thinking of as well. Because just in terms of all marginalised identities you know.

Diana: Um hmm.

Parinita: This is something we’ve spoken about before on the podcast in terms of disability where even disabled folks have to assimilate into abled communities and the abled view of the world.

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: And racial as well. And ethnicity, national origin whatever. But especially with queerness because right now I’m thinking that the most mainstream gay couple that I can think of is in Modern Family.

Diana: Oh yeah.

Photo of Cam and Mitchell from Modern Family

Image courtesy Indie Wire. Photo by ABC-TV/Kobal/REX/Shutterstock Jesse Tyler Ferguson, Eric Stonestreet

Parinita: I mean yeah you have them as this gay couple, but you could have them as a straight couple and it wouldn’t really – it’s not so different. So there’s this very fixed idea of what a family is. [An article presenting an alternative view of the importance of these characters in Modern Family]

Diana: Yup.

Parinita: And I’m trying to read more about these things because it is a blind-spot. Most of my friends are straight and most of my friends are cisgender.

Diana: Um hmm.

Parinita: So I try and read about it because that’s how you learn about these things that you wouldn’t encounter otherwise. And I know that a lot of queer communities are trying to fight for a different way of life. It’s a feminist project as well.

Diana: Um hmm.

Parinita: Not just what you see in the status quo. You just look at different ways of being.

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: But the media then just presents this very singular narrative of being queer. So what you were saying, that there’s just one way to be queer and you have to assimilate into that.

Diana: Yeah absolutely. And it’s interesting too when you were talking about coming out stories etc., that a lot of times the dominant conception of coming out is that it’s an event rather than a process. And a never-ending process. [laughs]

Parinita: Yeah.

Diana: And always a risks/benefits analysis too, right? Always little calculations like, “Is it worth it to mention something in this context where nobody knows who I am?” Particularly because heterosexuality and being cisgender are the defaults. And also as someone who identifies as nonbinary but who very easily and sometimes frustratingly so – although I also recognize, it gives me a lot of privileges – passes as a cis woman.

Parinita: Yeah.

Diana: It can be a tricky calculation. It’s not just like I sit some people down on a couch once and have this sort of great confession and then we move on.

Parinita: [laughs]

Diana: Or I’m disowned or murdered or you know whatever the [laughs] sob story would be – but yeah.

Parinita: Yeah absolutely! And it’s also like you said, the risks and benefits. So in one of the podcasts, the Imaginary Worlds one about The Power of the Makeover Mage.

Diana: Um hmm.

Parinita: I think a nonbinary guest was also saying the same thing. And a trans guest was saying that while playing video games, they found this ability to play with their identities – a relatively safe space within the video game to play with their identities.

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: And to experiment with their identity. But then when you go into the wider video gaming community, anybody who’s on the internet a little bit or in fandom research a little bit, we know about Gamergate.

Diana: Um hmm.

Parinita: And how toxic the video game community can be.

Diana: Absolutely.

Parinita: I think one of the guests said that if you’re only going to be with this random player for five minutes, you don’t want to be – like you said – coming out or … who do you come out to and why?

Diana: Exactly.

Parinita: Because it’s still the default. If you sound like a woman, then you will have to go through this whole process that may not really be safe to do either. Forget the whole emotional labour that you have to do but it might actually be dangerous.

Diana: Yeah. Definitely.

Parinita: So media does play a role in either normalising or marginalising queerness. And it can shape mainstream imaginations which in turn can then influence culture and then even politics.

Diana: Um hmm.

Parinita: So in terms of queerness, I know that there is more representation in Western media than in Indian media.

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: But something that we came across in one of the podcasts was this whole “bury your gays” trope. And is that something that you’ve come across yourself?

Diana: Definitely. Yes. So that’s something that I’ve come across in my own personal media consumption and also that’s something that a lot of my own dissertation participants and participants in other research that I’ve done on queerness and media creation or fandom have talked about. And so it’s basically this idea that sometimes in a piece of media – on television, in a movie, in a book – there will be oftentimes one or two queer characters in a larger sea of cis-hetero characters. And oftentimes you’ll be made to love them or appreciate them or even you’re just super excited because there’s a glimpse of queerness. And then they are killed – oftentimes very violently. And so that’s where this bury your gays idea comes from. And I do think that now there is slightly more awareness that this is a thing. I feel like there was a bit of a shift, honestly when there was a character who was killed off of a television show that in the US airs on the CW that’s called The 100.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Diana: And that got a lot of attention as something that should not have happened because it was shocking and violent and the whole show had kind of built up this relationship and they finally get together and then this one character is murdered.  But what’s interesting too is that even after that happened and after there was this uproar around it, right – some people almost framed that like a last straw kind of thing – there are still a lot of examples of media that have come out after that where this has happened. Where there’s a sudden, unexpected, violent death of the only – or one of the only queer characters in the entire universe.

Parinita: Yeah and especially when there’s such little representation. So the Imaginary Worlds episode that we listened to, about Imaginary Deaths,

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: It signposted this other podcast called Lez Hang Out. And they had a Bury Your Gays episode as well. One of the hosts there, she spoke about Willow and Tara … Tara … Tara? [tries different pronunciations]

Diana: Yeah, Tara, yeah.

Photo of Willow and Tara from Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Tara and Willow from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Image courtesy here

Parinita: Where that whole thing impacted her so much even though she acknowledged that in the scheme of the story, it made sense. And in terms of Willow’s character arc, she liked the character arc but did not like how it was done and why it was done. What she said was, “It gets better and then you die.”

Diana: That’s exactly – yes!

Parinita: It would totally be all right – obviously a lot of straight/cis/hetero characters die and you’re not – you feel an impact because they spoke about parasocial relationships that fans form with these characters that you feel like you know them. I mean even if in a show that everyone dies but if there’s one queer character and they always die – it becomes a trend – it’s very problematic.

Diana: Absolutely.

Parinita: And this is something that again – I know I keep harking back to previous episodes, but there’s such a common thread between all these marginalised representations because this happens with disabled characters as well. Where they’re killed off to propel the stories of abled characters or characters of colour who are killed off to propel the stories of white characters in Western media.

Diana: Absolutely.

Parinita: And of course bury your gays only works if there are gay characters in your story at all. You mentioned that you wanted to talk more about queerbaiting as well and how that’s a huge part of media.

Diana: Um hmm. Yeah, so totally with you on everything that you said and everything from your previous episode as well. It’s interesting to me that bury your gays got a lot of attention and has a specific name too when there are also documented trends of characters of colour who are killed off as well. And I also think there’s an intersection here. So The Wire is a good example of this. Sorry, spoiler alerts!

Parinita: [laughs]

Diana: I’ll get to queerbaiting in a second – but there is another common trend that’s sometimes called a triple threat minority character or something like that.

Parinita: Oh no! [laughs]

Diana: Right. Where you put all of the quote unquote – heavy quotes here – “difference” into one character. And that one character is supposed to be #diversity.

Parinita: [laughs]

Diana: In your otherwise very whitewashed, very cis, very straight, very abled show. [laughs]

Parinita: Yeah.

Diana: So that’s an interesting one too.

Parinita: And that places so much of a burden as well, right, on that one character.

Diana: Oh yeah.

Parinita: Because they are the only representations of everything then they have to be perfect. And make everybody happy.

Diana: Yes! One example that I know a lot of folks use is Sara Ramirez’s character on Grey’s Anatomy.

Parinita: Hmm oh yeah!

Gif of Sara Ramirez's character from Grey's Anatomy. Text says: So I'm bisexual. So what? It's called LGBTQ for a reason. There's a B in there and it doesn't mean Badass. Okay, it does, but it also means Bi.

Diana: [laughs] So queerbaiting is an interesting one, right. Because all of these to me are related to – I’m coming from a US context specifically – but structural problems throughout the entire society, right? So very institutionalised whiteness, heteronormativity, cisnormativity etc. And so this sort of necessarily trickles down into media industries, right. And so media industries are producing content that reflects a lot of these institutionalised violent normativities. And so queerbaiting is an interesting one because media creators know that there are queer audiences out there who are thirsty for content.

Parinita: Yeah.

Diana: And some of them are explicit about it – that they are teasing us with these characters and will say on panels at Comic Con – they’ll make jokes about it. Or there was a video that came out – I think it was Jake Gyllenhaal and Tom Holland from the newest Spider-Man movie that involves Tom Holland. There are so many Spider-Man movies!

Parinita: [laughs] Yeah.

Diana: [laughs] That’s a movie that’s been accused of baiting those two characters. And so in this little clip, they actually pretended to kiss each other and then laughed like, “Hahaha so funny! That would never happen in this mainstream Marvel movie!” But first of all, why?

Parinita: [laughs]

Diana: And second of all, that’s a pretty good example of how this is a common industry practice that’s framed as a joke. And that’s pretty violent towards queer audiences and frustrating. So the Supernatural creators have pretty explicitly played into this; on Supergirl they pretty explicitly played into this, right.

Parinita: Sherlock as well.

Diana: Oh my gosh!

Parinita: And there one of the creators, Mark Gatiss, he’s gay.

Diana: Um hmm.

Parinita: But I don’t know if it was with Sherlock or with somebody else, I’ve come across this idea that they feel like they’re doing it as a good thing for their queer fans – without recognising how, like you said, violent it is. You place so much of your emotional everything on these characters that you think are queer and then it’s snatched away from you.

Diana: Exactly!

Parinita: Even if they’re not doing it intentionally, it is such a blind-spot and it is structural, like you said. We talk a lot about the need for having diverse creators in media, so having more queer creators. And obviously it works in some instances. But in other instances – Sherlock, for example, and Doctor Who as well. I think now Doctor Who, I don’t know how familiar you are with it, but it is becoming a little more queer-friendly and in terms of diversity, a diverse cast, diverse writers and everything.

Diana: Um hmm.

Parinita: But traditionally it has – even in the new season, it has been very … yeah like the status quo. Very much what it used to be and very much what all media used to be. Even when you have someone like Mark Gatiss, who is a gay man.

Diana: Yeah. So I’m really glad you brought up the idea of hiring practices in media because this is something that I think is really interesting. There is a good book – it’s an academic book for – to warn listeners who might not want to read that. I understand.

Parinita: [laughs]

Diana:. But it’s called Race and the Cultural Industries.

Parinita: Hmm.

Diana: And one of the main points that it makes is that we can extend Audre Lorde’s ideas about having a seat at the table to talk more broadly about having a voice at the table.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Diana: And so just because you have people of colour, queer people, disabled people in a room doesn’t mean that they are going to be able to have the same amount of influence in that room as folks who are more structurally socially powerful, right, because societal power dynamics are still going to be at play there. And so it is of course extremely important to diversify media industries, but at the same time, that sometimes is just a band-aid on top of this larger structural problem. Because if you’re not providing overall the equipment or the scaffolding or whatever it is that you want to call it, that marginalised people are going to need in order to succeed and also not burn-out on all of the emotional labour that they’re giving into this industry.

Parinita: Yeah.

Diana: That’s more than just a hiring process, right? And that sometimes also can require a totally fundamental retooling of how it is that we’re thinking about these institutions, including media institutions. If that makes sense.

Parinita: That’s such a good point. Because what you’re saying, it’s really important, of course, in media industries, but it also reminded me of what happens in fandom.

Diana: Um hmm.

Parinita: So Rukmini Pande is a researcher who’s written Squee from the Margins.

Diana: I love that book!

Parinita: Yeah, me too. And that’s something that actually made me reorient my thinking. I started reading it at the beginning of my PhD a couple of years ago. So when fandom is so white and dominated by white and Western fans.

Diana: Yes.

Parinita: So it’s socially conditioned within you as well. Even though I wasn’t white and I wasn’t Western, like her, I still thought that there’s nobody else like me out there.

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: So I’m not going to talk about my identity. Then she’s looked at the racism problem in fandom.

Diana: Um hmm.

Parinita: Where it is the burden of fans of colour to talk about these things. And when they do talk about these things, they’re usually either listened to and then dismissed or just attacked.

Diana: Exactly.

Parinita: And even with slash ships – I know you mentioned this briefly before – but she’s done work in the Marvel Cinematic Universe as well as Star Wars.

Diana: Um hmm.

Parinita: She’s researched how white slash ships are more likely to be popular and there are more people who are writing about that versus any characters of colour.

Diana: Absolutely. Pande’s work is inspiring. I think that she’s brilliant. And I’m really glad that she’s publishing and that she’s talking about this because it’s vital. And this is something that’s reflected in my own dissertation data too. I have participants who have told me that they will experience more policing in fandom, for example.

Parinita: Hmm.

Diana: So if they write characters of colour, they will, for example, receive fewer kudos.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Diana: If we’re talking about Archive Of Our Own, the fanfiction platform, kudos are like likes on Facebook. And so they feel like those fics receive fewer kudos. Or they’ll receive fewer comments or the comments won’t be as positive. Even though AO3 in general is branded as a positive environment.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Diana: That’s not the case for fans of colour a lot of the times. And the other thing that’s interesting is – so anonymity is a really interesting concept in fandom and on the internet. I think it’s hard oftentimes to maintain, and some folks don’t want to maintain it. And so I’ve had participants of colour who have told me that they also will face harassment for writing white characters.

Parinita: Hmm.

Diana: White fans will come after them and say, “You shouldn’t be writing for these characters.” Which is ridiculous!

Parinita: Yeah. [laughs]

Diana: And what you mentioned too about Western fandom is extremely true. And I think that because fandom or mainstream fandom spaces are predominantly English language, people who are living outside of Western societies or outside of the Global North have to do a lot more work than folks who are, for example, native English speakers. Or who are more familiar with Western cultural tropes.

Parinita: Yeah.

Diana: There are more language skills related to writing in English, right. And in order to get readers, oftentimes my participants say that they feel they have to write in English. And also in terms of what a lot of my participants have called “research”.

Parinita: Yeah.

Diana: And that’s what I mean, they have to research if they want to write a story that’s set in a certain place like how would that be legible or palatable to people who are native English speakers, for example.

Parinita: Also explaining your own culture and everything.

Diana: Yes!

Parinita: What you were saying about native English speakers – for a country like India, because Western culture is now currently global culture, we get a lot of Western media and everything. And we become fans of that. And India has a huge English-speaking population in cities and things.

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: But it’s just this colonised mindset still that if you don’t see yourself represented, even in fandom – forget mainstream media, but even in fandom, if you don’t see yourself represented. Which is why Rukmini Pande’s book and her work was such a shift in my perception. Because it’s not something that I’d even thought about. My whole academic fandom research started with Henry Jenkins. And I love his work.

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: But then Rukmini problematises it a little bit because it is so white and Western and middle-class.

Diana: Um hmm.

Parinita: Because he’s one of the founding members of fan studies in general, that’s how fandom has gone. And even though I still think fandom can be a progressive space in certain aspects – for me, all my experiences with fandom have been relatively positive. Which is why my project is also looking at the more positive aspects because I’ve learned a lot from fandom. But I know that there are really toxic, really terrible things, some of what you’ve mentioned as well.

Diana: Yeah!

Parinita: And I’m glad that there are more conversations that are veering towards that. But even then, I think there is so much more work to be done and I’m glad that yeah, your research is also looking at that a little bit.

Diana: Yes, no, I’m glad that yours is too. And I fully agree with you. And it’s funny too, fandom is a really useful context through which to problematise the idea of canon.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Diana: Right? But also there is a fan studies canon. [laughs]

Parinita: Yeah! Absolutely.

Diana: And fan studies canon is super white and male. I get that Henry Jenkins was a pioneer in fan studies. But also he is kind of a utopian dude and that’s just not real.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Diana: [laughs]

Parinita: So just to move back a little bit to what we were talking about earlier.

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: I don’t even know if the retroactive reveal of Dumbledore’s gayness counts as queerbaiting. And obviously I wouldn’t have to ask this question if queerness in Harry Potter wasn’t only subtext and completely missing in actual canon.

Diana: [laughs]

Parinita: And that’s a problem with a lot of media, right?

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: Where fans have to queer the canon. Harry Potter, Frozen, whatever.

Diana: That’s a really good question. [laughs] So I think there is a very imperfect, very, very imperfect division right – I don’t really like binaries so I would not binarise them – but between the idea of queerbaiting and also the idea of queer-coding.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Diana: And so I think that Dumbledore is a queer-coded character.

Parinita: Right.

Diana: He has some of the token, particularly media ideas around … particularly being a lonely queer character almost.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Diana: Loneliness is sort of a common theme. So J. K. Rowling – known TERF.

Parinita: Yeah.

Diana: Not going to give her any credit.

Parinita: No.

Diana: For anything ever.

Parinita: No.

Diana: I have no problem believing that Dumbledore is queer particularly because one of my goals in life is to destabilise heterosexuality as a default. There’s an assumption, I think, that anyone whose sexuality is not otherwise identified is heterosexual.

Parinita: Right.

Diana: And so I would be very glad to say that Dumbledore’s sexuality is not identified and therefore he could be anything, right. He could be straight, he could be queer, he could be – this fits under a queer umbrella of course – but he could be ace [asexual], right. He could be any of these things.

Parinita: Yeah.

Diana: But J. K. Rowling going out there and being like, “Oh give me so much credit because I actually wrote a gay character and he was a main character. I just didn’t tell you.”

Parinita: [laughs]

Diana: “Until all of the books were published and I made my millions and millions of dollars.” Absolutely not!

Parinita: But even then, with the movies, in the Witch, Please podcast they’ve said before that it’s a political choice how you represent characters on the screen. So they were talking about Ginny how her character was butchered in the movies.

Diana: Yes, totally.

Parinita: I mean I know there are three more movies in the Fantastic Beasts series that are to come out, but through all indications, it doesn’t look like his relationship with Grindelwald is going to play a role in it. Or is even going to be mentioned as a relationship.

Diana: Yup. You’re absolutely right. See and this is why, again … canon is a very sticky, loose concept. Any sort of move to say that Dumbledore is canonically gay or that J. K. Rowling gave us a gay character … I’m sorry but where’s the proof? Other than J. K. Rowling probably doing a media stunt. Sorry but I don’t see … I have a lot of anger towards her.

Parinita: Yeah, no, and I completely understand why. Because like you said, if he’s queer-coded but if that’s something that is only then picked up on by possibly queer people and queer readers but not somebody like me, then there’s such an opportunity there to very explicitly have a character there which someone like me would also recognise and love.

Diana: Yes.

Parinita: Because I don’t have the tools to be able to identify and find the codes and the subtext that’s there. I know a lot of podcasters that I’ve listened to, Witch, Please, The Gayly Prophet, they read Madam Hooch as queer as well.

Diana: Oh one hundred percent yes. [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs] Yeah, yeah exactly. And now of course I take that as canon. Because I love the fan interpretation. So now when I’m reading the books, that’s what I see.

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: But again, if I hadn’t come across this in fandom, I wouldn’t know this. And not everybody is a giant nerd like me who goes on these fandom things.

Diana: [laughs]

Parinita: So what about the more mainstream readers who would love to have this representation. Even if it’s not representation of their own identities, even with race where she co-opted Hermione being black. Because oh she didn’t say anything about Hermione being any other race. But actually, all the characters of colour in Harry Potter, are identified explicitly as being of colour. So the default is white.

Diana: Yup.

Parinita: Just like the default is heterosexual.

Diana: Yup.

Parinita: So you can’t then take credit. There’s this one fan text which I love which – “If Harry Potter taught us anything, it’s that nobody should live in a closet.” I love that.

Diana: Yes.

Image of a person wearing a T-shirt. The text on the T-shirt says: If Harry Potter taught us anything, it's that no one should live in a closet.

A fan text included in my master’s dissertation which looked at two Facebook fan pages

Parinita: What I don’t love is J. K. Rowling co-opting it and pretending as if that that was her idea all along.

Diana: Exactly.

Parinita: And not giving credit to fandom.

Twitter exchange between @wcnderwcmann and @jk_rowling. Text says - @wcnderwcmann: @jk_rowling it's safe to assume that Hogwarts had a variety of people and I like to think it's a safe place for LGBT students. @jk_rowling: .@iaraswinn But of course. [attached image] If Harry Potter taught us anything it's that no one should live in a closet.

Diana: Exactly! So there was a video series that a blog on Tumblr ran before Tumblr died.

Parinita: [laughs]

Diana: It took a bunch of popular movie franchises and just spliced together all of the scenes that had characters of colour speaking.

Parinita: Yeah.

Diana: And the Harry Potter video I think was like 40

Parinita: 6

Diana: seconds long or something

Parinita: minutes. Yeah.

Diana: Exactly. Yeah.

Parinita: Throughout the whole series. Yeah I’ve watched that video. It was quite sad.

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: So in The Gayly Prophet the guest Kaeli spoke about how everyone goes through this Harry Potter phase and Percy Jackson phase while growing up. And I went through – I mean they were not phases, I still love both the book series. But Rick Riordan, even though he is very straight and an old white man basically. He’s very much the person at the top.

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: But in his subsequent book series, he’s made such an effort to include diverse identities – when it comes to religion or disability or even queerness. And making it explicit.

Diana: Um hmm.

Parinita: He’s not saying that this is subtext and you have to just figure it out yourselves and congratulations for figuring out these clues that I laid out. But he’s actually saying, no, this character is genderqueer, this character is pansexual. That I think is so much more important.

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: He’s writing for middle-grade audiences as well. So he’s not writing for young adults. And he says that it’s very PG – there’s no explicit sex or anything in his books. Just the existence of a gay character or any sort of queerness doesn’t make it political. Or doesn’t make it unsuitable for children.

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: Dumbledore being gay doesn’t mean that children wouldn’t come to the movie. That’s not a thing that would happen.

Diana: Right. I mean I think everything is political and so I think it is a huge political act to not represent anyone who’s queer or only represent whiteness, right.

Parinita: Yeah.

Diana: And to me, that’s the harmful political act. And that being said too, I will say I am with you on the Fantastic Beasts franchise in particular because this is the age when Dumbledore was supposed to be in a relationship with Grindelwald. This is what we were told.

Parinita: Exactly.

Diana: So this is not delivering. I think, and this is reflected in some of my research too, that representation is never the full story, right?

Parinita: Um hmm.

Diana: And so I do not want to negate or delegitimise anyone’s experience who has found some solace or identification with Dumbledore. But in terms of the larger political consequences of Dumbledore as a character, that was an utter failure. [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs] Yeah, what you said is completely correct. Because I met somebody at a workshop in the university library and she was saying that her kid is nonbinary and they were so happy to find out that Dumbledore is gay.

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: Because for them, it was this recognition that they exist – maybe not their specific identity – but there is a different way of being even in the wizarding world. So it didn’t matter for them that it wasn’t explicitly mentioned that Dumbledore is gay. They still found a lot of comfort and a lot of hope. So I think that’s important as well.

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: But then I also think it’s important to have more representation. And these conversations are important as well, right.

Diana: Definitely.

Parinita: Because then somebody who doesn’t think about these things might then discover these things. And what I found really interesting as well – that something I hadn’t thought of and somebody mentioned on the podcast – which was magic as a metaphor for gayness.

Diana: Hmm.

Parinita: Which an idea that I had never come across. I think they mentioned it in Harry Potter as well as in Frozen. Again both, Disney and Harry Potter – massive franchises – so much good could come out of including more explicit and not metaphorical representations of gayness.

Diana: Yes.

Parinita: I think everything should be explicit and not metaphoric. Metaphor is great if you are represented all the time in all media everywhere anyway.

Diana: Right.

Parinita: But not when you have to search for your identity every time.

Diana: Definitely. Yeah and I mean Disney – Jesus.

Parinita: [laughs]

Diana: Disney is built on the backbone of oppression, literally. And violence. [laughs] But also recent discourse around Disney has been … fascinatingly frustrating. Because nothing drives me crazier than – I shouldn’t say crazier – nothing angers me more than when Disney gets credit for having two women kiss in the background of a school pick-up scene and that’s the first time there’s ever been a quote unquote “gay kiss” in a Disney film. Wow! We should all be so excited! I am not excited about that.

Parinita: No.

Diana: I think that’s devastating.

Parinita: [laughs]

Diana: I know one of the articles that we read for the podcast was about like Elsa is queer-coded and the Give Elsa a Girlfriend campaign. And that’s never going to happen. [laughs]

Parinita: I think these campaigns do play a really important role because they can make fringe ideas mainstream.

Diana: For sure, yes.

Parinita: So obviously the goal would be for media to be diverse and inclusive of different kinds of identities. But even if the end content itself isn’t impacted now, I feel like these steps would hopefully – I’m an optimist so maybe naively so – [laughs]

Diana: [laughs]

Parinita: But I’m hoping that you know things like #OscarsSoWhite or #GiveElsaAGirlfriend or even the racebent Hermione thing. Which you know started in fandom with racebending Hermione but now it is canon of a sort. Which Cursed Child, the story is ridiculous and silly and absurd. And I don’t know if I actually consider it canon.

Diana: [laughs]

Parinita: But I love black Hermione. And also Indian – a desi Harry – I love that.

Diana: Yeah.

Fan art of Indian Harry Potter, black Hermione Granger, and Ron Weasley

Parinita: He’s not Indian in the Cursed Child. But I think these fandom campaigns can have an effect even if media itself isn’t ready to go there yet.

Diana: Yeah. I think that there’s a larger structural intervention that’s required in media.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Diana: And right now a lot of times the work or burden will fall on fans to have these campaigns and to fight for this. And what’s unfortunate I think is that media, particularly in a Western context, is tied to capitalism.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Diana: And so within a capitalist structure, first of all, that’s a huge contributor to these structural normativities. But also in a capitalist structure right now, queerness doesn’t really sell and the queerness that does sell is a very particular brand. And I use brand intentionally there.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Diana: And so we have campaigns like Give Elsa A Girlfriend which I agree can be really good in terms of visibility and in terms of getting people to think. But we also have Disney stopping the Lizzie McGuire reboot ostensibly because the writers wrote a gay character and they were like we don’t want that on our streaming platform.

Parinita: Aaah!

Diana: And so these wider ties to profit motives etc. I think require some actual structural reorientation if we’re going to think about something like equity, for example, in media and stuff like that.

Parinita: No, absolutely. But that’s what I mean. I agree with you. I think everything is political. But just the mere existence of a diverse body or a diverse brain or a diverse anything that is not the norm shouldn’t be political. It is now because that is a fight that we’re all engaged in.

Diana: Right.

Parinita: But the idea that having a gay character on a Disney platform will what? Corrupt the children? Will turn everybody who watches them gay?

Diana: [laughs] Oh no!

Parinita: I don’t understand. Yeah because all those Harry Potter movies I’ve watched, I can do magic, I’m white.

Diana: [laughs]

Parinita: I don’t understand the logic behind that. Just the mere existence of a queer character shouldn’t – it is – but it shouldn’t be political. It should just be “normal” as much as I side-eye that word.

Diana: [laughs]

Parinita: But it should just be the norm. Right?

Diana: Yeah. I’m all for destabilising norms and stuff so it would just be nice if those avenues were more open, right? It would be nice.

Parinita: And what you said about the very specific idea of Disney’s diversity. Frozen is heralded as this feminist – and I love Frozen, I’m a sucker for a feel-good movie. And especially if it’s animated.

Diana: Sure. Oh yeah.

Parinita: But that essay Deconstructing Disney: The Princess Problem of Frozen II, I really liked how the essay spoke about even the colonisation aspect of it. I mean just because you’re a princess, doesn’t make you a feminist.

Diana: [laughs]

Parinita: I mean you are literally in power. You are the status quo.

Diana: Right.

Parinita: You are the privileged end of the imbalanced power structure. And not interrogating the problematic aspects of monarchy reminded me of this version of feminism which seeks for women – largely in the West – but also, for example, in urban, upper-class India, to take on the roles which men currently hold in leadership positions without interrogating the structure.

Diana: A hundred percent, yes.

Parinita: And finding new ways of being leaders. And also ignoring the lives and impacts on women from less privileged backgrounds in the same country or in other countries. For example, “leaning in” and becoming the CEO of a fast-fashion brand but ignoring the plight of women in developing countries who are making these clothes for you for nothing.

Diana: Yes!

Parinita: It’s all very – it all makes me very angry. [laughs]

Diana: Me too! [laughs] That’s my default state.

Parinita: [laughs] So something that they spoke about in The Gayly Prophet made me think about how access to queer content and ideas and people differs over different generations as well as across geographical boundaries. So one of the guests Kaeli she’s sixteen. And this is something that I’ve also read in like – I know Buzzfeed is really easy to make fun of, but I like their community-sourced responses. So they’d written this article just asking teenagers about what they wanted YA writers to know about teenage life. Because young adult writers always seem to have this perception of teenagers which the teenage respondents said like, “Nope. That doesn’t seem like our life really.” Because obviously YA writers are grown-ups. But something that they mentioned was a lot of people as well as Kaeli seem to be much more comfortable experimenting with gender and sexual identity. So it’s not as rigid as it used to be.

Diana: Hmm.

Parinita: And, of course, this obviously depends on certain schools and certain places even in the US. Some parts of the US that absolutely wouldn’t happen.

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: India as well. Again, what you said about the intersections. Depending on which country you’re from or which race or even which part of the country – whether you’re in a rural area or an urban area, there’s so much of a difference in terms of what access you have.

Diana: Absolutely. And I think there is a difference in terms of access to knowledge about queerness. There’s a difference in terms of access to media and media production. And there’s also a difference in terms of access even to fandom content.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Diana: So one of the biggest and I think most unfortunate pieces of news in fandom recently has been that China banned AO3.

Parinita: Oh really?

Diana: Yes.

Parinita: I hadn’t heard about that.

Diana: The censorship policies in the Chinese government banned AO3 and so now in China you cannot access A03.

Parinita: Oh wow.

Diana: And that’s I think really a huge loss of course for the fan community in China. But I think AO3 is so tied to queerness. And any fandom space is going to have its problems – but to not be able to access that is a loss. It’s a big loss.

Parinita: Yeah because like you said, and for me, and I’m sure for a lot of queer people all over the world, fanfiction does provide this alternative to mainstream media.

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: Which provides access to these queer ideas and queer content and just that bubble is burst that, “Oh wait, this is also a way of being in the world? This is also a way of existing?” And it’s important for both, right. It’s important for queer people who are probably figuring out their identities but also for cis and hetero people for getting a glimpse into another way of life.

Diana: Um hmm.

Parinita: And hopefully understanding and gaining empathy from that. So yeah the fact that any country doesn’t have access to that.

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: Because the internet – I mean even the internet is such a privilege.

Diana: Absolutely. A hundred percent.

Parinita: Accessing the technology and the internet and even overcoming that. But then not having access to a space that you could have otherwise been happy in and found a supportive community in.

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: That’s really terrible. But you also mentioned that you had noticed different levels of acceptance for queer people in fandom.

Diana: Um hmm. Definitely. So what’s interesting to me is that fandom is transforming canon media content.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Diana: And so some of the limitations to canon media content make their way into fandom. And this is something I’ve noticed and this is also something that my dissertation participants have talked about. So one example that we’ve touched on already is that fandom is very whitewashed not only in terms of who are the most prominent or well-known participants but also in terms of the characters that are being written about.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Diana: But another example is that on AO3 for example, there are far more M/M works – so in slash fic, M/M meaning male/male pairings – than femslash. Or than relationships that do not involve cis men or cis women, trans representation etc. Part of the reason here, I think, and this is also reflected in my own data is that characters who are men tend to be more fleshed out in canon media. And so you have more to draw on when you’re writing about them. Whereas female characters are sometimes just inserted as an afterthought or as a performative thing. Or they’re not as well-developed. And there just overall are more men in media content than there are women. And so there are great femslash works out there but they are few and far between compared to M/M works. Also polyamory is perhaps less represented, although interestingly in Marvel fandom, polyamory is kind of a big thing.

Parinita: Oh!

Diana: But the other thing is that there is unfortunately a tension around ace identities.

Parinita: Right.

Diana: So asexuality is a spectrum. But there are some folks in fandom, who I think they are very wrong, but who don’t include ace identities under a queer umbrella.

Parinita: Oh.

Diana: And so don’t necessarily write ace characters. Or think that ace characters should be considered under queer fic. Further, because heterosexuality is such a default, oftentimes folks won’t even necessarily think that a character is ace. They’ll just think that they’re heterosexual and not partnered or something like that.

Parinita: That’s something that I’ve thought about in terms of Elsa.

Diana: For sure.

Parinita: I mean I love that the Give Elsa A Girlfriend campaign exists. But what if she doesn’t want a girlfriend?

Diana: Exactly.

Parinita: I mean she might, she might want companionship.

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: But yeah what if she’s ace? Surely that should also be something …  but yeah, what your research has found, something that people probably don’t think about.

Diana: Absolutely. That’s a really good example. The other example that I have a lot is Benedict Cumberbatch’s Sherlock in the BBC reboot.

Parinita: Yeah.

Diana: And then the other thing that I would just want to mention is that not in terms of sexuality but in terms of gender, there are some real limitations, first of all to – right so trans is a spectrum. Being trans is a spectrum as well.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Diana: And so there are some real limitations to trans characters in fandom. And so when trans characters are depicted, and this is something I’ve noticed as a nonbinary person, but also something that my participants have talked about, first of all, it’s not common to have nonbinary characters. Whether you’re queering them – so whether someone is canonically cis and you’re queering them as nonbinary or whether they are canonically nonbinary, although there are very few canonically nonbinary characters right now. But also in terms of if folks are trans women or trans men, some of the same sort of dominant narratives around trans experiences are reflected in fandom. And this can be especially interesting in explicit sex scenes. A lot of times if you have a trans man or a transmasculine person, they will have had top surgery if they’re doing a sex scene.

Parinita: Hmm.

Diana: Whereas your physical features don’t have anything to do with your gender identity.

Parinita: Yeah.

Diana: That’s also complicated and so some of these mainstream ideas are also, what my participants were saying, over-represented in fic – when they’re even there.

Parinita: Yeah. So it sounds like even when marginalised queer identities are included in fic, it is still this monolithic experience that everyone must fit into and full of stereotypes as well. Or there’s no exploring the nuances and complexities of these different identities.

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: And I think a question that you asked which was really important was – especially in the context of the series that we’re talking about – is whether we can divorce the creator from the work. So what are your thoughts about that?

Diana: Oh god that is one – that’s a really, really hard question.

Parinita: Yeah. I know I mean I’ve gone through nine – no eight episodes I think, I’ve gone through just glossing over what do we think about J. K. Rowling. But just because we’re talking especially about queerness, and since you brought it up as well.

Diana: Absolutely. And I will admit I’m someone who does have trouble divorcing the creator from the creation.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Diana: And so there are things that I will no longer interact with after learning things about the creator. And there are things that I will not interact with to start because I know things about the creator.

Parinita: Yeah.

Diana: And J. K. Rowling, I don’t like her. Right?

Parinita: Yeah.

Diana: She is a … TERF. She has said things that are extremely racist like but I think that there is … and no binaries here – so I think that there’s some nuance for me at least and this is sort of very personal in that – and I’m also not going to lie, there’s some nostalgia tied up in this and that’s problematic. Nostalgia is a sometimes a real troublesome idea.

Parinita: Yeah.

Diana: Because it tends to actually perpetuate normativity and I recognise that. But I think that to me, the Harry Potter canon has been so deeply influenced by the fandom or the fanon. that J. K. Rowling’s original works don’t necessarily have the same significance to me as some other original works because my experience is so tied to fandom.

Parinita: Hmm.

Diana: And fandom is a vast range of creators right. Many of whom say F U to J. K. Rowling.

Parinita: Yeah.

Diana: And so the bottom line is that even though maybe I should, I just will never cast off Harry Potter [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs] No, I totally – I’m with you completely. Because like you, there’s some people like H. P. Lovecraft, for example,

Diana: Um hmm.

Parinita: After I discovered that he was terribly racist and things, I’m like yeah, I don’t think I need to read any of his works. I’m okay, I’m good. I have other stuff to read.

Diana: Right.

Parinita: So not entering into a relationship with anybody who I know stuff about. But J. K. Rowling – with Harry Potter, it played a really formative role – it had this huge role when I was growing up. I started reading the books when I was ten. And it was my solace during a really difficult childhood.

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: So I can’t … even now as much as I don’t like J. K. Rowling, and I don’t. I’m very open about that.

Diana: Um hmm.

Parinita: But I can’t – like you said, nostalgia can be problematic. But for me, it’s so much more also tied into I think my own sense of self and my identity.

Diana: Yes!

Parinita: And everything.

Diana: Absolutely.

Parinita: And fandom as well. What I’ve found in fandom.

Diana: Yes.

Parinita: That in that specific case, I can divorce the creator. But I really like what some fans are doing. So The Gayly Prophet is this queer Harry Potter fan podcast.

Diana: Um hmm.

Parinita: And the hosts had appeared on this other podcast that I listen to called #WizardTeam after Rowling’s TERFy tweet.

Diana: Okay.

Rowling’s transphobic tweet

Parinita: And in response to her tweet, they said that they were going to be divorcing the series from Rowling by choosing to actively create a community which queers the series more.

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: And they call it the #MakeHarryPotterEvenGayer2020 campaign.

Diana: [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs] And they want to leave Rowling behind and not give her any more money, so they refuse to buy official merchandise; they’re only going to buy stuff on Etsy and things that fans create. And they’re also collecting queer and trans specific Harry Potter fan works and, what they call, “angrily reclaiming our space in the fandom” Because for them, the community has played such a huge role. They’ve found so much in the community.

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: And their podcast, in turn, from what they mentioned, has created this space for queer fans to figure out their identities, become more comfortable, find a space for others like them

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: So I think that that’s important as well. It’s such a difficult topic. And I completely understand people who want to just throw her out and throw out Harry Potter. Because there are other book series as well, right. There are many better book series now where writers who have been inspired by her but now do better. They write better books, they write better stories.

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: Yeah. Ugh it’s – it’s – it’s very

Diana: It’s a really hard one for sure [laughs]

Parinita: Especially as Harry Potter fans. Especially as people who have such a strong – and fans, right? It’s not just this obsessive squee about a thing.

Diana: Yes!

Parinita: It’s having this deep, emotional relationship with something that becomes really difficult to untie from your sense of self as well.

Diana: Absolutely.

Parinita: Just before we wrap up, you also wanted to talk about fandom and COVID-19 – the pandemic – where fandom could be a refuge or on the other side, could exacerbate inequities.

Diana: Yeah. So I think that right now, we’re in the midst of the pandemic.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Diana: And so I personally believe that no good social science research will come from this until at least ten years from now. We all need some perspective.

Parinita: Yeah.

Diana: I don’t think that it is wise to be rushing into COVID research unless you are someone who is developing a vaccine. In which case [claps] keep going!

Parinita: Please do. Quickly! Yeah. [laughs]

Diana: But I do think that, and this is something that, without my asking, has come up in my dissertation data. And it’s an interesting context through which to think about how global events and … disruptions – I don’t think that’s really the word – affect fandom communities. And maybe online communities more generally. And so what’s interesting is that I think that – and I mean you can even get this from going on Twitter, right. For a lot of folks, fandom and fic and reading fic and writing fic are cathartic experiences.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Diana: And so that is something that becomes more salient when we are in a period of fear and uncertainty and death, right. And so this is something that’s really important. And it’s interesting to watch also infrastructurally how this is affecting things because for example Archive Of Our Own has had some issues because there are so many people overloading the server, logging on.

Parinita: Yeah.

Diana: And so just let me just quickly plug that if you can, donate to the Organization For Transformative Works right now.

Parinita: Yes.

Diana: Because AO3 needs it. So that’s one thing which is on the positive side, right. Not the infrastructural stuff but the cathartic nature of fandom playing a really salient role here.

Parinita: Yeah.

Diana: But on the other side, as much as some folks want to divorce fandom from capitalism and from any sort of monetization, that is absolutely not true. And we don’t need to get into sort of the ins and outs of that but one way that that manifests is that a lot of creators and fan creators make a living or part of their living off off selling materials right.

Parinita: Yeah.

Diana: Off off selling fan works. So art, fic, plushies that have to do with their fic etc. at conventions and online and things like this. And with mass cancellations of conventions and with uncertainties around the risks of having things shipped to you etc., folks are losing a lot of income.

Parinita: Yeah.

Diana: For fans who tend to be marginalised people anyway and so statistically they are going to be more socioeconomically disadvantaged.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Diana: This is sort of a real problem.

Parinita: Yeah that’s a really good point. And also a really sad point [laughs]

Diana: I know, I know!

Parinita: No, we’re not going to end on a sad point. Do you have any media recommendations that highlight queer voices that you think do a good job of it?

Diana: Yeah. So I know you had asked about podcasts.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Diana: So Queer As Fiction – they’re tragically not making new episodes right now. But it’s a fanfic writing podcast and it is very good.

Parinita: It is so good! I’m so glad you recommended that to me because after I heard the Harry Potter one, I heard the Disney Princesses one.

Diana: Uh huh.

Parinita: And I did not know this is a genre that I needed in my life. Where people are just writing fanfic and collectively collaborating on it and just reading it out to each other.

Diana: Um hmm. It’s so good. I love it.

Parinita: Ugh yeah. Me too.

Diana: I also really like a podcast called Queery that a comedian named Cameron Espesito runs. It’s like an interview podcast

Parinita: Um hmm.

Diana: And she gets some really good guests on there. There’s a podcast called Back Talk that’s run by Bitch Media. And they do a really nice job, particularly examining things from an intersectional lens. They run the gamut from media to politics etc. And there’s another called One From The Vaults that’s actually a podcast about trans history.

Parinita: Oooh!

Diana: And the woman who runs it is a really good storyteller.

Parinita: Ooh excellent.

Diana: So yeah I recommend that one. In terms of books, I mostly at this point, read academic things and so I won’t recommend those.

Parinita: [laughs]

Diana: But there’s a really, really sweet YA book that I read recently that’s very popular – so folks might already know. But it’s called Red, White and Royal Blue.

Parinita: Oh yeah, I’ve heard of it.

Diana: It’s kind of a private as like a real-world AU [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs]

Diana: So that was good. TV-wise what’s been good? Feel Good was interesting on Netflix. The Batwoman television show is a CW superhero show but it’s very enjoyable.

Parinita: [laughs]

Diana: Killing Eve just came back.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Diana: Um … of course I’m blanking. I watch so much television and I’m blanking.

Parinita: No, no I can understand. Can I add some more recommendations to that as well?

Diana: Oh please.

Parinita: Because this is somebody from the outside but loving all kinds of diversity and inclusivity.

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: So TV show – She-Ra and the Princesses of Power.

Diana: [gasps] I love She-Ra!

Parinita: I love it very much.

Diana: Me too!

Parinita: And podcasts The Gayly Prophet, I mentioned it before, but it’s really good because they apply this queer intersectional lens to Harry Potter and they’re reading each chapter and their commentary is really funny. Sometimes really sad, but mostly really funny.

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: So that’s great. In terms of books, I’ve become obsessed with the Lumberjanes comics series.

Diana: I love Lumberjanes!

Parinita: Yeah it’s excellently queer.

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: And recently I also read Gender Queer by Maia Kobabe.

Diana: Yeah!

Parinita: Which was a graphic novel that was really interesting about just coming to terms with your identity, which for me was really illuminating. And it was great. And another book that I read was The Gender Games by Juno Dawson.

Diana: Um hmm.

Parinita: About her identity, about her transitioning and just coming to terms because she used to write under James Dawson.

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: And really popular YA books. And she’s really open about her identity and also really fun but also sometimes really sad as these things go. [laughs] But really good for I think both people who are questioning their identity but also for someone like me who’s looking to learn about different identities.

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: And an excellent picture book that I love is Julian Is A Mermaid by Jessica Love because I’m a huge children’s literature nerd so I have to recommend children’s books.

Diana: Yeah!

Parinita: And just one last recommendation was something that I came across recently. It’s a fanzine called Trans Affirming Magical Care where a bunch of people came together to send contributions to it essentially as a response to J. K. Rowling’s TERF sentiments.

Diana: Yeah.

Parinita: And it’s a fanzine about trans students in Hogwarts and all the profits are going to be donated to a trans charity.

Diana: Oh I love that!

Parinita: I’ll link to it in the transcript. But yeah that’s something that I’m really excited to buy once it’s safe to send mail again, because it’s based in the US.

Diana: Yeah. And if we are talking specifically about books that I think do a good job discussing various aspects of queer experiences I recommend anything by Janet Mock. She has two memoirs out right now. They are both very, very good. Tillie Walden does some good autobiographical comics for folks who like comics. I enjoy her work a lot. Jacob Tobia just put out a memoir fairly recently. I think it’s called Sissy but I might be wrong. Their perspective is quite good. And Vivek Shraya who’s a trans musician from Canada just put out a YA book that’s supposed to be quite good.

Parinita: That’s an excellent bunch of recommendations and a great way to end the episode.

Diana: Awesome.

Parinita: Where we got really angry at some things. [laughs]

Diana: I know. [laughs]

Parinita: But in a good way. Thank you so much Diana.

Diana: Oh thank you!

Parinita: This was such a fantastic conversation. I loved chatting with you about all these things.

Diana: Same here.

Parinita: And I learned so much from your research as well.

Diana: Oh thanks! Yours as well!

Parinita: [laughs] Thank you.

[Outro music]

You’ve been listening to our episode on queer representations in media and fandom. What are some of your favourite queer media recommendations? My ever-expanding list of things to read and watch is always hungry for more! If you want to read more about Diana’s work, visit their website at dianagfloegel.com. You can look for their articles – “Write The Story You Want To Read”: World-Queering Through Slash Fanfiction Creation in the Journal of Documentation and Entertainment Media And The Information Practices Of Queer Individuals in Library and Information Science Research. Find the links to all of this in the transcript. Thanks so much for the excellent conversation and company, Diana. And thank you Jack for all the work you do with editing the episodes.

[Outro music]

You can now listen to Marginally Fannish on SpotifyAppleGoogle, or SoundCloud. I’d love to hear from you and talk to you – so any feedback, comments or critiques are very welcome! Get in touch with me on social media, leave a comment on my blog, or email me at edps@leeds.ac.uk. If you’d like to follow the podcast or the PhD project, visit my website marginallyfannish.org where you’ll find both the podcast episodes and the blog. You can also receive updates on Facebook or Instagram at Marginally Fannish or on Twitter where I’m @MarginalFannish. If you enjoyed the podcast, please share it with anyone you think will enjoy it too.

Thanks for listening! Tune in again next time for all things fannish and intersectional!

Episode 7 There’s Never Chicken Tikka Masala At Hogwarts: Different Cultures in Fantasy Media

Episode Resources:

For this episode we looked at the following texts:

Fan podcast – Breaking The Glass Slipper Cultural Traditions of Magic with Zen Cho

Fan podcast – Breaking The Glass Slipper Islands in Speculative Fiction: Live from WorldCon

Fan podcast – Imaginary Worlds Do You Speak Conlang?

Fan podcast – Imaginary Worlds In Defense of the Star Wars Holiday Special

Fan podcast – Reading, Writing, Rowling Amy H Sturgis: Fantasy, Imagination and Indigenous Futurism

Fan podcast – Reading, Writing, Rowling Harry Potter Voices Across Borders

Article – How Knowledge About Different Cultures Is Shaking the Foundations of Psychology

Episode Transcript:

This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity. If you would prefer the original, unedited version, please let me know!

Photo of Aditi Krishnakumar

[Intro music]

Welcome to Marginally Fannish, a show where we aim an intersectional lens at some of our favourite media and their fandoms.

[Intro music]

My name is Parinita Shetty and you’re listening to the seventh episode of Marginally Fannish. In this episode, I talk to Aditi Krishnakumar about how different cultures are represented in some of our favourite fantasy worlds. As readers who grew up in India, there were many cultural stereotypes in Western texts which we just didn’t pick up on. Now, we’ve learned a lot through the collective intelligence of online fandom.

The ways in which mainstream media portrays different cultures influences audience attitudes about people from these cultures. The dominance of Western fantasy and culture in fiction marginalises other ways of being in the world. In a lot of fantasy worlds, diverse cultures are used either as set-dressing or just for comic relief. The ways in which different languages and foods are depicted can also sideline certain groups of people.

What is considered the norm and what is exotic in popular fantasy? Whose cultures and intellectual histories are privileged? Such conversations about diversity among fans can play a huge role in decolonising traditional ideas of fantasy. Retellings of old stories – both in traditional media and within fandom – are increasingly used to subvert problematic ideas and reflect progressive values.

Find our conversation about all this and more in today’s episode.

Happy listening!

[Intro music]

Parinita: Today, I’m so glad that I get to chat with Aditi Krishnakumar. Aditi grew up in India and she now works in the finance industry in Singapore. And she enjoys reading and is a published writer. So we share a children’s book publisher – Duckbill Books in India. And when Aditi’s book was due to be released, my editors asked me if I’d like to interview her for their blog because they know I’m a middle-grade fantasy nerd. I fell so completely in love with The Magicians of Madh. And Aditi creates such a fascinating world populated with the most absurd characters – absurd in the best way possible. I love absurd characters. And so she has a bunch of absurd characters and cultures and I just didn’t want to stop reading her world. And if you’re into comic fantasy and middle-grade books, you should definitely check her book out as well. This week, Aditi and I are going to talk about how different cultures are represented in some of our favourite fantasy worlds – both of us love reading fantasy. And we’re also going to chat about our experiences in online fandom a bit. So Aditi, do you want to introduce your own experiences encountering different cultures – either in fiction, fandom or the real world?

Aditi: This is probably true for lots of us growing up in India – the first things that you read, the first fantasy, everything – it’s all Enid Blyton.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: And all the magical creatures that you hear about are the brownies and the pixies and –

Parinita: [laughs] Yeah.

Aditi: [laughs] And you know the things they eat, the puddings and cakes and jellies. So that was pretty much it. And then The Hobbit I guess was next. And these are all … they’re just so very, very British. Both of them. Like really British books. Which is fine because they were by British writers. But I think … it has changed now – but growing up, there was definitely not many fantasy books that were really relatable for me.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: In that world.

Parinita: I’m the same as well. I grew up reading Enid Blyton and other British and American books.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: So there was The Baby-Sitters Club and things and –

Aditi: Charlotte’s Web.

Parinita: Yeah. So even things that weren’t fantasy, or even if they were fantasy, the fantastical world was a whole other thing. And that real world in the UK or in the US was also this sort of foreign, alien world almost.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: And I also grew up watching a lot of Bollywood movies. I love Bollywood movies. I grew up in Mumbai.

Aditi: Um hmm.

Parinita: So it is pretty diverse but it’s still a very limited diversity. Even though we have a lot of people from all over the country in the city, especially when you’re younger, you only really interact with a limited group of people.

Aditi: Right, right. ’Cause in school you’ve just got a small bunch of friends.

Parinita: Exactly. Or in your housing society you’ll have neighbours and things. And so Bollywood introduced me to all these different cultures. I’ve never tried to look at Bollywood critically until a few years ago. And there are so many stereotypes in terms of different cultures that they portray in Bollywood movies as well. When it comes to tribal folk in Bollywood movies – and in Hollywood as well, I guess – and their customs, it’s just –

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: So full of stereotypes. Or even different religions or people from different regions – Gujarati stereotypes or South Indian stereotypes or Bengali stereotypes. There are so many. And in Enid Blyton, I know that she’s now being criticized a lot because golliwogs were supposed to represent black people in her books?

Aditi: Right, yeah. I think it’s one of those things that you can still – because I still think some things are really good about her books, especially her school stories, I think. You know they show girls being independent.

Parinita: Oh yeah.

Aditi: You don’t see that in The Famous Five and stuff but where her stories are exclusively about girls … I mean she does have problems and you can acknowledge them. But I think there’s still some great stuff.

Parinita: No, absolutely. I still love Enid Blyton’s books because it made me fall in love with reading.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: Those are the books that I read when I was six – The Faraway Tree and The Famous Five and things. And obviously at that age, I didn’t pick up on these anti-foreigner sentiments. And golliwogs and racism toh I wouldn’t even have thought of. Because I had no conception –

Aditi: I didn’t even know what a golliwog was.

Parinita: Yeah! Exactly! I mean there were pictures of the golliwog in the books, in some of the toys ones …

Aditi: In Noddy they had some golliwog pictures.

Parinita: Yeah. But I would never have – just because growing up in India, I don’t have that idea that oh this is supposed to represent black people. I just thought oh this is a doll.

Book cover of The Three Golliwogs by Enid Blyton

Aditi: You know I used to have those trolls when I was a kid right, those troll dolls.

Parinita: Yeah, yeah.

Aditi: Which I just thought it was something like that.

Parinita: It’s like with Harry Potter as well right? You can love the world and the story but you can also critique it. It doesn’t need to pass by unproblematically but you can still love it. I think it’s that balance. And it’s difficult because I think especially the books and things that were written a longer time ago when these conversations weren’t happening, if we read them through 2020 [the year the episode was recorded in] lenses, it might not be as diverse and inclusive as we want them to be. And I think it’s important to have that conversation that this is where it is missing.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: I would still want to read Enid Blyton books because the stories themselves are something that I have such positive associations with. So just to begin with our episode, a few of the podcast episodes that you and I listened to, touched on the theme of the dominance of Western fantasy and culture in fiction.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: And how this either marginalizes or exoticises other cultures and beliefs. And we talked about Enid Blyton a bit. When you were listening to this, did you think of any examples yourself?

Aditi: I mean one was Blyton herself ’cause there’s this some – I forget which one it is, it’s one of these Five Find-Outers books.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: Where … oh I remember – I think it’s The Missing Prince or The Vanished Prince or something like that. So there’s an Indian price called Bongawi.

Parinita: Oh.

Aditi: Or Bongawa or something.

Parinita: Yeah that very Indian name. [laughs]

Aditi: Yes. So I mean that’s the kind of thing I thought – at the time I honestly I’m not sure I even realised they meant Indian like people from India. I don’t know what I thought. But it’s not something –

Parinita: Yeah because they also call Native Americans Indians, right? A lot of these early books, American Indians was this other thing.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: So in Breaking The Glass Slipper, The Cultural Traditions of Magic Episode with Zen Cho

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: She was talking about how the fantasy fiction that we read is, it currently depends on which culture is dominant. And mostly the stuff that is dominant right now is Western fantasy. It’s British and it’s American. And even on television. So I didn’t even realise these ideas of fantasy that had been shaped by Western culture. Because you grow up in India, at least if you grow up in certain parts of India, in cities and things, you have access to both Western and Indian culture.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: You have influences of both. So I thought it was interesting that she pointed this out, because even she is from Malaysia – she’s Malaysian-British. And she pointed out how a lot of Western fantasy is very Judeo-Christian. And it exoticises anything that doesn’t fit within that framework. And I was like oh yeah I actually hadn’t thought about that.

Aditi: It does, right? The other thing that you’d shared, I think the article [she meant podcast episode] about the Star Wars Holiday Special.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: I like Star Wars but I think that’s part of the reason everyone tends to make fun of that. And you can kind of see why people make fun of it ‘cause it’s just so obviously –

Parinita: Have you watched it? The Star Wars Holiday Special?

Aditi: I hadn’t watched it for years but when I read that article, I saw a bit of it on YouTube.

Parinita: Yeah. Oh my god. So just as an aside, because I have to say I just love that movie so much [laughs].

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: One of my friends introduced it to me a couple of years ago.

Aditi: Um hmm.

Parinita: We were just doing this bad movie night thing where we’d have these regular bad movie nights at their flat. And we watched this and I just couldn’t believe that this cultural touchstone that Star Wars is and The Star Wars Holiday Special, what it is. I don’t even ironically love it, I very sincerely and –

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: Unironically love that ridiculous little movie that even George Lucas has completely divorced himself from.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: Like nope, I’m not going to do this. But yeah, sorry I interrupted you.

Aditi: I think it started from George Lucas because you always read about how he was influenced by Joseph Campbell and I read this book at some point of how Harry Potter also reflects the hero’s journey from Campbell. But the thing is Joseph Campbell’s books themselves have always felt like they are so … even his books about oriental mythology are still so much from a Western lens.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: And that’s the proto-text that people very often consider now for fantasy writing or for epic writing. But that itself is such a Western lens that you know that’s –

Parinita: Yeah and even on a couple of the Imaginary Worlds episodes that we listened to. How they were talking about basically science fiction – I don’t know if it was the ones that we listened to but I listen to a lot of his episodes. And just the analogy with science fiction. Things like Star Trek where the whole concept is discovery and whatever, but it is a very Western colonial perspective as well.

Aditi: It is.

Parinita: Which you don’t think about right? At least I don’t. I’ve grown up not thinking critically about media at all.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: I just – I’m entertained by media. And it’s only now that I found that I have those tools and the vocabulary to articulate these things. But also I enjoy doing it. I enjoy looking at these things critically. I was watching Star Wars the original trilogy the other day and the Ewoks are also so very stereotypically tribal I was like okay yeah this is interesting. I didn’t realise how much …

Aditi: When you see it as a kid, you just think that they’re kind of cute.

Parinita: Yeah! And even The Star Wars Holiday Special. So the first twenty minutes is – and this is what I love telling my friends about this movie, about how ridiculous this movie is – it is twenty minutes of unsubtitled Wookie dialogue.

Aditi: [laughs] I read that.

Parinita: So they’re just –

Aditi: That’s just –

Parinita: Yeah. [laughs] They’re just literally grunting. You have to just imagine what they’re saying to each other and you don’t have this context. But like I said, I unironically love this movie. But because I love critically analyzing it, I was also thinking, to me it was a bit like how someone who doesn’t speak the dominant language in a culture or doesn’t belong to the dominant religion or the race or whatever, depending on where they are, and how for them, their culture is marginalised as well.

Aditi: Yes.

Parinita: Like in this Wookie land, obviously nobody understands them. We, the audience don’t understand them. And it’s so easy to make fun of it – to laugh it off.

Aditi: But you know on a somewhat related note, this is one thing I found when watching not the really big-budget Hollywood movies but some TV shows and things like that. When they’re speaking, especially when they’re speaking in Tamil occasionally and very often they’re allegedly speaking in Tamil which I speak. But I don’t know that it’s Tamil.

Parinita: Aaah.

Aditi: Because it sounds nothing like it. And I have to read the subtitles. So it’s sort of –

Parinita: [laughs] Ohhh right!

Aditi: You’ve not actually even got someone like a decent voice coach. Which they would do if someone was speaking French or Spanish or something.

Parinita: I know we’re going to talk about it a little more later but just because like you said that it’s just the politics of language as well. I was watching um what’s uh I’ve completely blanked out on the name – Hasan Minhaj’s show? The one on Netflix? [Patriot Act]

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: I love that show. And he was doing an episode on India – the Indian political system. I think it was about Modi. I’m not sure. So he started speaking in Hindi at one point and the subtitles said, “speaks in a foreign language”.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: And I was like ummm first of all, you’re a global platform. You’re on Netflix. I mean it’s produced in the US but it is on a global platform. So foreign for whom? And also you’re literally talking about the Indian elections. It wouldn’t have been so difficult to figure out that it is Hindi or to just look it up or something. Yeah, I sent a very outraged message to one of my friends.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: Saying, “Foreign to whom?!” So the problem isn’t obviously including diverse cultures in your world. You want diverse cultures. It’s only I think when you use these unfamiliar cultures as if they’re – I think Zen Cho mentioned this – as if they’re set-dressing in your fantasy world.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: Especially if that culture is marginalised in the real world.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: One of the things that we read [I meant an episode we listened to] was the whole Native American fiasco that J. K. Rowling had found herself in.

Aditi: Oh my god yeah. With those Skinwalker things. That was just …

Parinita: Yeah! And honestly I have to admit, I don’t know that much about Native American culture and about what they consider really sacred and what they consider really a part of their culture. I think another thing that’s really popular on the internet now – or it was a few years ago – was the term “my spirit animal”.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: Like something is my spirit animal. Which now a lot of Native people on Twitter and things say that, “No this is offensive to us, we don’t like you using this. So instead why don’t you use Patronus because that’s basically what you mean and that’s not offending anybody.” She’s [Rowling] so rich. Why doesn’t she just hire a research assistant to do this stuff?

Aditi: I know! [laughs]

Parinita: It’s just ridiculous to me.

Aditi: No, I think that’s what’s happened with her is that as long as she was writing about British things in a British setting, she probably knew what was too sacred to be touched simply because she grew up with it. But once anyone, not just J. K. Rowling, once anyone starts writing about something that unfamiliar …

Parinita: But you would think that especially now because this she did not write in the 90s – about Magic in North America on her Pottermore essays

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: It was now. When these conversations are very present. This is happening on the internet. And even if she doesn’t spend time on the internet, the fact that you have this power and your voice is reaching so many people and you know that your franchise is super popular, you would think that you would make more of an effort.

Aditi: You should do a bit more.

Parinita: Yeah!

Aditi: It’s not just that. It’s like her list of wizarding schools.

Parinita: [laughs] Oh my god.

Aditi: You’ve got three of them in Europe and all of Asia has one wizarding school in Japan.

Parinita: Yeah! In Japan! I was listening to this other podcast Woke Doctor Who where they were doing a Harry Potter thing. And one of them, she’s Chinese-American. And she was like um Japan attacked China a few decades ago.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: I don’t think Chinese wizards would be really happy to go to Japan just like yeah hello, everything’s all right. And Africa I think has one? The whole of Africa has one wizarding school as well.

Aditi: Yeah. This is basic maths. She just needs to work out the population and figure out where the schools should be, that’s it.

Parinita: Yeah. And the UK I mean it’s such a tiny place and they get this whole British wizarding school. Which of course has its own issues. So I didn’t realise this earlier. All these British politics I’ve only learned the nuances of once I’ve moved to the UK.

Aditi: Um hmm.

Parinita: But Jack, who is Scottish, he had encountered this thing about Seamus Finnigan. He doesn’t read Harry Potter but he knows some things.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: And Seamus Finnigan, this Irish character who loves blowing things up and setting things on fire.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: And I was like oh my god what! [laughs] I didn’t even make that connection that your one Irish character loves blowing things up.

Gif from the Harry Potter movies of Seamus Finnigan accidentally blowing up a potion

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs] I guess there is an element of parody. I suppose you’re just doing it …

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: Or maybe she thought that she was doing it as parody, I suppose?

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: But I don’t know where that line is between – this North America thing, definitely she’s crossed the line because there have been Native American fans of Harry Potter who’ve called her out on it and she hasn’t yet to my belief, she hasn’t responded to the critique at all.

Aditi: Right. And the other thing is the Nagini thing which has been another disaster I think for her. And in so many ways it’s just so wrong to begin with. She’s not really focused on the mythology. Which is a secondary thing. But also this whole concept. I don’t know if she thought about it at the time when she said that killing Nagini was necessary. I don’t think Harry Potter spoilers count now, do they?

Parinita: No, no. I mean I’ll put a spoiler warning anyway. But yeah.

Aditi: But when you realise then that she was in fact a woman who was forced to be in that form and then killing her is necessary. And it’s just such a really, really terrible thing.

Parinita: And especially in a world where the characters of colour you can count on like maybe if not one hand, on two hands. Even though I think Nagini is from Crimes of Grindelwald?

Aditi: She is, yeah.

Parinita: I haven’t watched that movie yet. It’s on my list. As a proper Harry Potter scholar I suppose I should.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: But I’ve heard such bad things about it that it’s completely put me off watching it. But yeah even in the Harry Potter world but also in that prequel world, there aren’t that many characters of colour. So the way to include diversity isn’t necessarily to make this dramatic death scene.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: I don’t know it just seems basic. And some of these ideas you know they become so ingrained in you unconsciously because of what we’re exposed to, because of what we’re reading. We internalize these ideas of fantasy that we don’t even understand that oh this is our idea of fantasy. Which is why I love Terry Pratchett, his Discworld books.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: Because they push against it so often. They just take these tropes and stereotypes and they turn it upside down in a way that the reader’s like oh yeah you’re subverting it! And in a way that’s not obviously subverting it. Like he’s not saying oh look at me, look at how clever I am.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: But I mean he is pretty clever. So I love Terry Pratchett.

Aditi: Yeah, that’s true. And all of his characters who make a difference like Vimes and Lady Sybil and Granny Weatherwax, they’re not stereotypical, heroic characters.

Parinita: Yeah. And they’re taking witches, for example, or aristocracy or just guards. And it’s taking them and it’s not completely doing away with their identity. It’s not subverting it in a way that their history doesn’t matter if that makes sense.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: It’s using their history and their identity to subvert, which I really like.

Aditi: No, I think that’s cool. The solution is not to say I’m introducing this character who’s diverse but they’re exactly like all the other characters and it’s just that from their name or the actor playing them or something, that’s how you know that they’re diverse.

Parinita: Yeah! Exactly. I’m always torn you know as a writer but also as a reader. Because currently diversity is so … we’re still not there yet where we’ve achieved equal representation.

Aditi: Right

Parinita: So what’s the better way where you don’t mention anyone’s race or ability or gender, gender identity or whatever. And you just allow people to read themselves into it? Or you explicitly mention all the diverse identities so that it is more explicit?

Aditi: Yeah actually I think both ways work. I mean to an extent. ’Cause if you’re in a fantasy world with made-up names then it’s fine, you don’t have to. People can just imagine anything. Sometimes in the real world, just the sort of names and locations give you a bit of an idea of at least culturally what you mean. Honestly and I know I’m speaking from a position of privilege here because I can afford not to care but it’s just … something I’ve never really thought about one way or another in books. Because all this thing about shipping and who do you want to be dating whom and all that, I’ve never been involved in and never really have I cared about it. It’s always sort of like you know …

Parinita: Yeah like what other people say. I honestly didn’t think about these things either. Until I was listening to this episode um I forget the name of the Harry Potter podcast – oh yeah #WizardTeam. And it’s these two black American fans who are reading each chapter.

Aditi: Um hmm.

Parinita: And they just have a commentary. And they read Hermione but also Hagrid and Minerva McGonagall as black because they’d said that there is nothing that said otherwise in the text. In Harry Potter, all the characters who are not white – their race is mentioned.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: Whereas everybody else is normal I guess. Or you just don’t need to know their race because they’re obviously white.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: So I realised that when I’m reading Harry Potter or I’m reading any text that is Western-authored, for me everyone is white. I’ve not yet been able to decolonise my mind that much that I read my race or another race into it. I need to be told that this person is black or this person is Asian just for me to be able to even imagine differently. I suppose because –

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: I’ve only been reading certain kind of books and watching a certain kind of –

Aditi: You know that happens with me too. When it’s a Western writer … yeah you’re right, unless they specifically say this character is whatever they are, you just assume that they are white.

Parinita: Yeah. Which is why I’m trying to … so over the last, I think, year or a bit, I was trying to read more fantasy exclusively authored by women. It just started off randomly but then I realised that I actually really enjoy the different kinds of stories that are here now when it’s women who are authoring these worlds. And in a way that I didn’t even realise I was missing. Because I was reading most of the books that are written by men or TV shows and movies that are created by men.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: And then I started reading more books from women of colour as they say in the US which now it’s a term I’ve adopted whereas both of us – we are women of colour. We are both from India. Like even in Singapore –

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: There everyone is from … I think it’s very multicultural right? A lot of different countries’ inhabitants?

Aditi: It is, yeah. Especially in the business district and all you could be in any country because there are Chinese and Japanese and Indians and Europeans so there’s like everybody.

Parinita: Yeah. Which I think is so … like there’s so much potential because now at least in a lot of bigger cities, it is so multicultural.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: In Mumbai, it may not be in terms of – there are of course non-Indians who come and live there as well. Who some people will call expats because immigrants is only for brown people.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: But there’s also so many people from other parts of the country, right? India is essentially like twenty-seven different countries in one.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: And there is so much potential. But it seems like the way it’s divided is between dominant and marginalised – that’s the sort of relationship different people share. It’s such a pity because we’re missing out on so much. We as in we from the dominant culture within India or Singapore I guess.

Aditi: Yeah, no we do. But honestly, I’m not quite sure what the way around this is because when you think about it, it just doesn’t end well if you try to force people to interact. So it’s just one of those things that has to happen organically.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: And I hate that word but that is the only word for it.

Parinita: No, that’s true. Which is why for me, media is such an important way to do this. Because if your media shows these cultures – and whatever media not just books and fantasy but also movies and TV shows and things. If you are showing them only in stereotypes, then that’s how people who don’t know these others – who don’t interact with people who are not like them in the real world will then have this idea of those people, right? I didn’t sound very coherent but –

Aditi: [laughs] No but I know what you mean. You’re right. Because if your only exposure to somebody is through Hollywood which will happen if you’re Indian and you’re maybe living in a smaller town or something. Your only exposure to people from like China may be through movies.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: And then you’re just going to have this idea that could be really, really wrong.

Parinita: Yeah. And now of course there’s like ugh just mentioning China now is so fraught because just the amount of – I don’t know how it is in Singapore because obviously it’s a very different part of the world. But in the UK there have been so many attacks against not just Chinese people but also East Asian people in general. Because of this whole Coronavirus thing. And it’s just like it – it’s just – it makes me very depressed to talk about, honestly I shouldn’t have brought this up. But I think there is a link between how you consider people from another country just because of the media. Not just entertainment media but news media as well. If they’re so othered that it’s almost like they’re aliens and you know their – even the language that’s used, like in the US, for example, oh aliens.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: Mexicans are aliens.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: Of course it would have an effect. The language that you use is important. It is political. In India as well, people from Pakistan or from other parts of the country – if you use a word like cockroaches for them; if you’re a minister of a party who’s using this language, how do you make it better? That organic growth, it’ll be impossible for that to be achieved you know.

Aditi: Right. Yeah, no that’s true. There has to be … I don’t know it’s really depressing to think about it.

Parinita: It is. Let’s move on to some of our fantasy before we get really, really sad about this. Because while it is important, I don’t know how much we can do – what we can do about it.

Aditi: But can you imagine if Trump, when he was talking about Mexicans, if instead of calling them illegal aliens, he called them expats or something?

Parinita: Yeah! Exactly. I obviously consider myself an immigrant in the UK currently because I’m living here. But I can’t call myself an expat because first of all that word is … I’m very doubtful of that word.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: I side-eye it. But also I’m brown so I’m not allowed to call myself an expat. And I’m not rich so I’m definitely not allowed to call myself an expat.  So moving on to less depressing topics. Or maybe not. Maybe Harry Potter might also depress us. But I do love Harry Potter. [laughs]

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: Despite all the problems that it has.

Aditi: No, that’s okay. We’ll still have fun.

Parinita: Yeah. [laughs] So perhaps we could think about what is considered the norm and what is considered exotic in some of our favourite worlds. One of the examples that I think you’d shared with me a few weeks ago was from Pratchett.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: Do you mind just briefly talking about that?

Aditi: Right. So Pratchett whom I mean I love him to bits. I don’t remember which book it was. I think it was Snuff.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Aditi: But there’s this bit where there’s one of the characters whose mother or grandmother or something came from a country that is sort of a stand-in for China.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: And there’s a running joke throughout the book that she makes a dish called Man Dog Suck Po and then there’s another dish with another similar name. It’s basically played for jokes.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: I thought that was tragic because Pratchett is so brilliant. He doesn’t need to do this.

Photo of a page from a Discworld book. Text says: Vimes hesitated. It didn't do to upset an old mum. It was time to let the duke out. Vimes never normally bowed to anybody, but he bowed to Mistress Upshot, who almost dropped her tray in ecstatic confusion. 'I am mortified, my dear Mistress Upshot, to have to ask you to keep your Man Dog Suck Po warm for us for a little while, because your son here, a credit to his uniform and to his parents, has asked me to assist him in an errand of considerable importance, which can only be entrusted to a young man with integrity, as your lad here.' As the woman very nearly melted in pride and happiness Vimes pulled the young man away. 'Sir, the dish was Bang Suck Duck. We only have Man Dog Suck Po on Sundays. With mashed carrots.' Vimes turned back and shook Mrs Upshot warmly by the hand, and said, 'I look forward to tasting it later, my dear Mistress Upshot, but if you'll excuse me, your son is a stickler for his police work, as I'm sure you know.'

Parinita: Yeah I know. And I think even with people who consider themselves progressive, people who consider themselves I suppose above such cultural goof-ups – or just horrible cultural missteps – it’s so important to be on the guard against these things. Because like we were talking about earlier, it’s so internalised.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: That you don’t even realise what you’re doing is ridiculous or is terrible.

Aditi: Right. And I mean there’s not even a moment which would possibly have redeemed it when people try this thing and say, oh it’s actually good and I liked it or something. It’s just a joke.

Parinita: Yeah. It’s just like diversity for the sake of humour and comic relief. And the Amy Sturgis episode on Reading, Writing, Rowling that we were listening to about indigenous futurism? They were making fun of the horrible way in which Rowling has written about indigenous people. They mentioned, “the radical idea that Native Americans have their own intellectual history.” It’s this thing that to others – to people who are not well-versed with this culture or who are just looking at it from this colonial perspective – don’t realise that Native Americans, even though their knowledge and practices differ from ours, or in India it might be different regions or even or tribal or rural sort of practices, it is still a valid way of understanding the world and interacting with the world. It just doesn’t match your own. And it was reminding me then of other cultures within Harry Potter whose cultures and intellectual histories are dismissed and mocked. So for example, Ron and just I think the magical world in general is so suspicious of goblins. And the way that they engage with magic and objects and whatever.

Aditi: Right. And it’s so silly because when you think about it, the goblins are running the economy. You should be really grateful to them because I don’t think anyone in the wizarding world can do maths.

Parinita: [laughs] No. I mean their system is so complicated like how many Knuts and Sickles and –

Aditi: Can you imagine if you’re trying to make change and you’re going what is twenty-nine into seventeen or something.

Parinita: [laughs] I know. And yeah, so I was also thinking that the Muggle culture within that and the Muggle-born culture as well is also so diminished.

Aditi: It is. And you know there’s one thing that didn’t occur to me at first but later when I re-read and thought about it, I thought it was really awful. Which is right upfront when Hagrid says, we don’t reveal ourselves to Muggles. And the reason is that they’d want magical solutions to their problems. And okay you don’t want to just be fixing people’s glasses and all, I get it. But when you realise that wizarding medicine in Rowling’s world is so advanced.

Parinita: Yeah!

Aditi: And they’re just keeping it to themselves because they can’t be stuffed. That’s really awful.

Parinita: Yeah! And we were talking about this in an earlier episode – me and my friends. And we were like, could they fix the climate crisis? Why wouldn’t you? You live with the Muggles as well right? Do you not want the planet to be all right?

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: And also the thing is that they have such a paternalistic attitude towards Muggles and Muggle-born culture. So I re-read Philosopher’s Stone recently.

Aditi: Um hmm.

Parinita: And this Hermione’s obsession with reading everything to know about the magical world and being this rule-follower until … she isn’t. But still largely following rules.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: And I was thinking that that’s so similar to the experiences of an immigrant right?

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: Either in another country or even in another –

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: Like from rural to urban or whatever. And you want to be the best version of yourself because if you go wrong, you will be held as the representative for your entire race or religion or … yeah whatever. And nobody seems to really be that curious about Hermione’s Muggle background – except Arthur Weasley. But even he isn’t – it’s in a way that’s –

Aditi: It’s like he’s looking at something in a zoo.

Parinita: Yeah! Or in a museum. Okay magic is super advanced in some cases. But in other cases, like Muggles, we use ballpoint pens. [laughs]

Aditi: [laughs] They’re using quills and ink.

Parinita: Yeah! We don’t use chamber pots and I don’t know … some of them I think still use chamber pots or was it just Dumbledore – I don’t know. I have this –

Aditi: It’s Dumbledore who found chamber pots in the Room of Requirement.

Parinita: Oh yeah! Yeah! Which like … um plumbing?

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: So no, it’s just like there’s so much that can be achieved through cross-cultural collaboration.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: If the wizards and witches actually respected or were curious about Muggle culture, imagine how much better Hogwarts would be. Health and safety would definitely be better. Because they don’t seem to have heard about it. Maybe therapy? Some of the professors could also do with therapy, I think.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: And just the internet! Imagine how much miscommunication has happened in even just the Order of the Phoenix.

Aditi: I mean just imagine if Harry had a cellphone then Sirius would not be dead.

Parinita: I know! [laughs] I know!

Aditi: But you know another thing that I – and that’s another thing that I realised only after you put that thing about food in the Google doc [we use while planning the episode], the other thing that struck me is that in all of Harry Potter, all the food is just exactly like in Enid Blyton.

Parinita: Oh yeah!

Aditi: And I think the most foreign thing they have is like bouillabaisse.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: Even that is making fun of it but –

Parinita: Yeah because, oh what is this foreign thing that only Fleur seems to want?

Aditi: Yeah. But actual British culture I mean they do have a lot of other food I would think.

Parinita: Oh, you know what the national dish of the UK is? Chicken tikka masala. [laughs]

Aditi: Yeah exactly. But there’s never chicken tikka masala at Hogwarts.

Parinita: Exactly! I’m not even joking. This is something that Scotland claims to have invented which I’m taking with a grain of salt.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: It was some Bangladeshi immigrants in Scotland that apparently invented chicken tikka masala. Which fine whatever. When I used to read about Enid Blyton food as a kid, it used to seem so exotic and so exciting to me.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: And when I re-read it as an adult, I was like oh you’re eating boiled eggs with a twist of salt? Okay.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: That’s cool. I understand because I’ve read this that she’d written about it in the post-Second-World-War atmosphere where there was lots of rationing happening in the UK. So she was trying to make simple food and things sound exciting. Which worked because yeah it was super exciting even to this kid in India who had really yummy food around her. So the diversity in Hogwarts, what are the Patil twins eating? Are they happy with this bland British food?

Aditi: They’re having toast and marmalade for breakfast.

Parinita: Yeah!

Aditi: Every day.

Parinita: Yeah! Do they not want some masala in their –

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: I know what a struggle it is because I have a white Scottish boyfriend who is used to some spice but is not used to Indian level of spice.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: So  it’s always a compromise in terms of spice. And he knows I like chili in everything. I like chili flakes in most things.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: So I need some spice. How can you be an Indian or a child of an Indian immigrant in Hogwarts and not want … I don’t know some curry powder in everything.

Aditi: All of them. Or even Cho Chang, she never gets noodles. I think they’re always having –

Parinita: That’s true! There are no noodles in Hogwarts! What a travesty! There’s no fish and chips either. Which is I suppose would be considered more … I don’t know if there’s a class connotation …

Aditi: Maybe they can go to the Hog’s Head and get fish and chips.

Parinita: Ah perhaps. So it’s all healthy food in Hogwarts. Which is quite boring. Even dal would have also – [laughs]

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: Or lentil soup as they call it here. [laughs] That would have been at least more exciting. I never thought about the food in Hogwarts actually, about how narrow it is. What a fixed definition of food there is. And yeah I wonder if there’s fanfiction out there about just having a desi Christmas or a Diwali maybe.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: Maybe the Patils could celebrate Diwali or I don’t know whatever other – I’m very bad with my Hindu festivals. And in … I don’t know in Star Wars and things, food is not really mentioned …  except in the Star Wars Holiday Special where there was another twenty-minute segment which consisted of a person on the TV cooking something.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: With an increasing number of arms that came out. I’m telling you, everybody needs to go watch this movie because it is amazing. [laughs]

Aditi: [laughs] Food is not … I mean you see a bit of it here and there but it’s not really a focus.

Parinita: Which I don’t understand because for me food is the most important part of any adventure. [laughs] Like why – I suppose they’re busy fighting a genocidal maniac I guess so it’s okay.

Aditi: Maybe Jedi knights don’t care about food.

Parinita: Oh what a sad future! Is this the future that we’re heading towards? Oh no!

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: I know there have been a lot of critiques in A Song of Ice and Fire for his [George R. R. Martin’s] obsession with describing food. And Lord of the Rings as well. No, his [J. R. R. Tolkien] was trees.

Aditi: Yeah. [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs] Even in terms of food of course but there’s also language.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: We briefly spoke about that before and yeah I was thinking – just like in terms of the Wookie language, but also like in any of the fantasy worlds, of course, English is – because they’re written I suppose in the UK and the US. But the foreign languages that I can think of for example in the Lord of the Rings I think Elvish is one.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: Right? And the Orcs have their own language.

Aditi: Yeah, yeah.

Parinita: From what I remember. And obviously one is good whereas the other is evil.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: The people who come from the East are not to be trusted. [laughs] They’re villains. Whereas the Elves, they have this gentle tongue.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: No problems there.

Aditi: But yeah, no I think the way they handle languages is – and I think that’s a problem with Tolkien definitely ‘cause he’s … I mean I don’t want to speculate because it was so long ago so I don’t want to speculate about whether or not it was intentional. But everything that happens is focused on the West. And the East … I mean there are a lot of these mysterious events that happen there like the elves walk on the shore of the sea and they came to the west and the two blue wizards went there and they were never heard of again. So you have no idea what’s happening there. It’s just the sort of – for all you know there are snake charmers. It’s this sort of mysterious exotic place and we’ve got no clue what’s going on. And a part of it is also I think is that it was Tolkien’s area of study.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: The Anglo-Saxon and Nordic. And so it’s natural possibly that all the languages he invented should sort of be based on that. But yeah I don’t know I think culturally it’s also that his intention was to create a mythology for England.

Parinita: Hmm.

Aditi: So he wasn’t trying to be diverse which –

Parinita: Yeah

Aditi: I mean that’s not an excuse – it isn’t diverse.

Parinita: No. I mean I do understand what you’re saying. I suppose especially when – he was writing what during the 60s? The 1960s? 50s? Or something like that.

Aditi: Yeah. I mean he started writing a bit earlier than that. Started creating a bit earlier than that. But yeah then the books were coming out then.

Parinita: Yeah so I mean I do understand why diversity wasn’t such a big thing. But then the sort of ideas that we have … because I think Zen Cho said that currently Western culture is global culture. Just because of how cultural imperialism has moved in terms of media. And English itself is considered this language of intelligence.

Aditi: Hmm.

Parinita: In India.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: I’m talking specifically of India. One of my neighbours back home in Bombay, she had an interview in a school for her kid. Her kid was three or four so they wanted to get into a this fancy international school.

Aditi: Um hmm.

Parinita: And she was so worried. She wanted me to come to her the night before and teach her English because she was like, I don’t know to speak English. She speaks in Marathi. And she’s like, if I speak in Marathi and if I’m not able to speak in English, they’re going to think I won’t be able to look after my child’s education or they’re going to think I’m not intelligent.

Aditi: Oh god.

Parinita: Yeah! Right?! And this is in Mumbai where it’s full of Maharashtrians. It’s full of people who speak Marathi.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: And I did tell her don’t worry about the language so much. But also, on the other hand, there are people – people who speak in English – who do equate English with intelligence. And if you don’t speak in English, you’re obviously not as intelligent or your ideas are not as worthy as someone who does speak in English.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: Yeah it’s so sad. I think just talking about these things, it helps. But if you’re just talking amongst people who think like you, it’s … we’re just coming up with problems on this episode. [laughs] Like here’s a problem!

Aditi: No but actually now that you mention it, so there is this the thing in Lord of the Rings, the book, it doesn’t come in the movies. So Frodo, when he leaves Bag End, he meets these elves who are all going West because everyone goes to the West, it’s amazing.

Parinita: Yeah. [laughs]

Aditi: So there are two forms of Elvish that are primarily spoken in Middle-earth – Sindarin and Quenya. And Quenya is the one that is better and higher and everything. So he knows the Quenya greeting because Bilbo taught him.

Parinita: Ah.

Aditi: And he uses that and the elves are immediately like I think they name him Elf-friend on the spot.

Parinita: [laughs]

Aditi: So that’s pretty much the same thing that’s happened to your neighbour I guess.

Parinita: Yeah!

Aditi: Or that she thought would happen to her.

Parinita: And also just as a side-note, I find it really interesting that people like Tolkien fans are so excited to learn like Elvish or Star Trek fans are so excited to learn Klingon but not an actual foreign language that might make their neighbour more comfortable or somebody you know more comfortable.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: You know language is like food as well. I think in one of the episodes that I was listening to after we spoke when we were planning the episode, it was another Imaginary Worlds podcast episode about food in fantasy. And one of the guests was talking about how food is used to express xenophobia. Not just in the real world. Obviously in the real world where if you meet this unfamiliar food –

Aditi: Um hmm

Parinita: You’re like eww what is this, and it meets with disgust. But also in science fiction and fantasy, where if you’re going to this new either planet or country or land or whatever, there’s so much that can be done to push against what happens in the real world rather than just replicating what happens in the real world.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: I’m happy that even though something is so internalised, it’s difficult to unlearn these things, but still there’s still conversation happening. Like you and I we’re having one but also just on the internet in general. There’s more conversation about diversity so people are becoming aware of these things and it’s helping decolonise traditional ideas of fantasy.

Aditi: Yeah, I’ve learned to re-examine a lot of the things I thought and the way I read fantasy just through like Tumblr and Facebook. Well not Facebook so much, Tumblr. And stuff online.

Parinita: Yeah absolutely. Me too. Because you’re not learning these things in school, right? Nobody is telling you these things. Where else are you learning these things?

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: It’s just the internet and for me fandom. That’s one of the major reasons that I started this podcast for the PhD project because for me, fandom has been such a tremendous learning experience and critically analysing things and unlearning problematic things that I have internalised.

Aditi: I think part of the problem in schools at least might just be that they don’t know how to have these conversations. ’Cause one of the literature texts that I did in school was The Tempest.

Parinita: Hmm.

Aditi: And I mean I love Shakespeare too but that is also problematic in so many ways. But that’s just something they don’t talk about in schools. And maybe they don’t know how – they can’t you know …

Parinita: Oh yeah! You’re so right. I think more contemporary texts need to be used in schools anyway.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: But even if you want to place them in conversation with what you consider classic texts, there is such an opportunity to talk about anti-Semitism or to talk about problematic ideas in something like Shakespeare for example.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: I used to do this reading programme in a school in Mumbai.

Aditi: Um hmm.

Parinita: And one of the people really wanted to get rid of the fairy tale books in the library. Because she said that, which is true, a lot of the fairy tales, they have really problematic ideas of gender.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: But I told her that I think getting rid of these books would really be a lost opportunity because they’re going to be getting these messages outside anyway. Like we were talking about Disney.

Aditi: Yeah

Parinita: It is this huge corporate behemoth which is going to pervade everything.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: And I think a better use of that would be to read these stories but then teach the kids to problematise them; see what can be challenged in these ideas within the story that you don’t have to accept.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: And similarly in Shakespeare as well, I’m sure.

Aditi: Right. Because it’s the same thing we were talking about earlier. You can appreciate something and still realise that it’s got problems.

Parinita: Yeah! Exactly. So one of my favourite things is retellings of fairy tales or of mythology.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: Or just of old stories that were written when everything was really problematic if we look at it from now. But then they subvert the stories in ways that make them really relevant and contemporary and make it more exciting for us.

Aditi: Yeah. But actually you know I was reading this thing on – I think on Tumblr or somewhere a while ago. And I thought it was really cool. So it was about fairy tales and the original fairy tales, not retellings. About the good things even in those. So basically the one I remember is Cinderella ’cause she was saying that obviously it’s full of problems. But then the thing is also that Cinderella manages to stay hopeful despite all the horrible things that are happening to her.

Parinita: Hmm.

Aditi: And she stays kind and she is still a good person despite everything. And that’s something worth remembering even if there are problems with the rest of it.

Parinita: That’s true! That’s such a good point. Because that’s true even in the texts that we’ve talked about today right? For example Harry Potter.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: Or you know Lord of the Rings, Pratchett whatever. Some which we love more than others.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: For me it’s definitely Harry Potter. I’m an avowed Harry Potter fangirl. But also Pratchett. But yeah, you don’t need to toss out the whole thing because you have one problematic element. Or maybe more than one problematic element. You can still search for the good in that. Harry Potter has positively impacted so many people in the world.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: You see these examples in activism as well where they draw on Harry Potter in the way people might have drawn on religion first. They’re drawing on Harry Potter as a sort of cultural myth almost. And they’re using it to understand the world. That’s why I love fandom so much because there is room for all these different interpretations and you’re learning from each other. So in an academic text that I read, Henry Jenkins, who’s awesome – he’s one of my favourite academics. He’s a fan scholar, so he’s both a fan and a scholar. And he talks about the collective intelligence of fandom.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: Where one person doesn’t know everything. It’s impossible for one person to know everything.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: But everybody has different skills and knowledge and you’re coming together in this space around a thing that you love. And you’re drawing on your own experiences and knowledge and backgrounds and whatever. And making sense of it together.

Aditi: Yeah I think actually that’s why I like Tumblr so much ‘cause it’s really a space where that happens. People just join conversations.

Parinita: Like you were saying, you learned a lot of queer perspectives and ideas about queerness and queer ideology and things from Tumblr and fandom right?

Aditi: Yeah. Right. Because that’s just not something that – I mean I knew that queerness existed but it just wasn’t something that was really on my radar when I was reading. Just like I wouldn’t have thought that a character was non-white in a Western book, I would not have thought that a character was queer unless the writer just said it outright.

Parinita: Yeah because if you’re not a part of that marginalised group, I guess you’re not really thinking about these identities. There was another discussion about disability and neurodiversity.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: I was listening to this other podcast where they read Hermione and Luna as well as Neville I think in Harry Potter as neurodiverse. As autistic.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: They said something which really struck a chord. That when writers are trying to write or are writing disabled characters into stories, they’re usually really rife with stereotypes. Especially if it’s someone who doesn’t have experience with disability.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: And they’ve done research but they’re using … they’ve obviously not talked to a person with a disability So it’s a stereotype. So people with these disabilities, they would rather recognise their own identities and practices and behaviours and whatever in characters that are not explicitly said to be disabled.

Aditi: Right. No actually you know that makes sense. ’Cause also I think the problem would be that a writer would be afraid of being accused of bias if they had too many flaws in a disabled character or something of that sort. So they just end up being these perfect people.

Parinita: Yeah, yeah! Or just that one thing gives them this super skill or something.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: That their disability becomes their magical power. For me, just these fandom conversations are so great. Like I was telling you, fan podcasts have become my new fandom expression.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: Because Tumblr would have sucked – although fan podcasts suck a lot of my time also. But I don’t have time for two things right now. So luckily I get to do this as a part of my research. So I’ve chosen a good project.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: Yeah I learn so much. But even within fandom, I feel like even within these conversations … we were talking about cultures earlier; I feel like there are cultures within fandom as well.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: Not just say Harry Potter would be different and Lord of the Rings would be different. But even within Harry Potter fandom for example. So initially in fanfiction and things, there’s been a lot of conversations about gender and queerness.

Aditi: Yeah

Parinita: A lot of engagement with that. But not so much with race. A few years ago I think it was called out. This became a topic of conversation then in fandom that  you know there’s this race-blindness that’s happening and people are not really talking about race. Then trans folks were also complaining about this.

Aditi: Yes.

Parinita: But now I feel like in terms of diversity, there’s a lot of conversation happening about race. But not so much about other marginalised identities. Not so much for example about disability or class or I don’t know religion I guess. I do see a few things – there were these really cool texts about Muslim students in Hogwarts and how they would celebrate Eid and how they would do the month of Ramzan.

Screenshot of Tumblr post by bertiebottsbigbean. Text says: why don't we talk about muslim kids in hogwarts during ramadan? imagine waking up at 3 every morning and walking down for suhoor, to find the house elves have prepared a feast for them. imagine the kids having an extended curfew, so they can go and eat iftar at 10, where the house elves once again provide a ten course meal, topped with dates and traditional delicacies from around the world. imagine the kids being allowed to go into the kitchens in the middle of the night if they were still in the mood to eat. imagine the kids being allowed to leave class to do their prayers, and spending lunch times to read the quran. we need to talk more about muslim kids in hogwarts

Aditi: Yeah I think you were mentioning that. And that also brings up the question of the same thing, Patil twins and Cho Chang. I mean is everyone a Christian who goes to Hogwarts? Because they seem to celebrate Christmas and Easter.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: I don’t even know. Because I don’t get the impression that anyone is really overtly a believer.

Parinita: Yeah because they don’t talk about Jesus or anything. Or the birth of Christ or anything.

Aditi: Yeah so Christmas just seems to be for crackers.

Parinita: Yeah. A cultural rather than religious celebration.

Aditi: Right. So in that case there’s no reason why they can’t like you said have Diwali or something. I’m sure they’d have fun doing that too.

Parinita: How fun would Diwali sweets at Hogwarts be though?

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: Like jalebi and I don’t know I just miss Indian food a lot. I wish it was a bigger part of Hogwarts as well.

Aditi: And just think what they could do with the fireworks. [laughs]

Parinita: Yeah! Exactly.

Aditi: They don’t know what they’re missing.

Parinita: I mean maybe the animals like Fang wouldn’t have a great time during Diwali at Hogwarts but some sacrifices have to be made, I guess.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: But yeah even like Eid or something.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: Just having you understand each other through your customs and rituals and celebrations without exoticising them.

Aditi: Right. Or Chinese New Year because I’m sure Cho Chang can’t be the only Chinese student there.

Parinita: Yeah! I mean I hope not. Because there seems to be one token diversity everywhere. But yeah, just different cultural, regional, national celebrations would be really good. Scottish as well. They’re in Scotland. We don’t really know anything about Celtic culture.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: So I think we’re just about running out of time. But thank you so much Aditi for being on this podcast and for being a part of this project. It was so fun talking to somebody who has the same cultural contexts but also different fandoms and just bringing both our fandoms together and just geeking out about what we love and what we love to hate.

Aditi: [laughs] Thanks for having me. It’s been fun – great fun.

[Outro music]

You’ve been listening to our episode on representations of diverse cultures in fantasy media. While editing this episode, Jack showed me a great example of encountering unfamiliar food from a different culture in one of his favourite shows Star Trek. Commander Riker participates in an officer cultural exchange programme and begins to understand the Klingon culture through its food. If, like me, you’re curious about checking it out – the episode is called A Matter of Honour. If you know of any other fictional examples of different cultures interacting with each other without the Western colonial perspective, I’d love to hear them! Thanks for such a fun conversation, Aditi. And thanks for all the editing and recommendations, Jack!

[Outro music]

You can now listen to Marginally Fannish on SpotifyAppleGoogle, or SoundCloud. I’d love to hear from you and talk to you – so any feedback, comments or critiques are very welcome! Get in touch with me on social media, leave a comment on my blog, or email me at edps@leeds.ac.uk. If you’d like to follow the podcast or the PhD project, visit my website marginallyfannish.org where you’ll find both the podcast episodes and the blog. You can also receive updates on Facebook or Instagram at Marginally Fannish or on Twitter where I’m @MarginalFannish. If you enjoyed the podcast, please share it with anyone you think will enjoy it too.

Thanks for listening! Tune in again next time for all things fannish and intersectional!

Episode 6 Different Bodies and Different Brains: Depictions of Disability and Ageism in Media

Episode Resources: 

For this episode we looked at the following texts:

DISABILITY:

Fan podcast – Breaking The Glass Slipper Representations of Disability with Marissa Lingen

Fan podcast – Witch, Please Episode Rho: Live and Professional at Tufts University

Video – The Gayly Prophet Disability in the Witching World

Essay – J. K. Rowling Illness and Disability

Reddit thread – How do physically disabled people travel around Hogwarts?

Article – Harry Potter and the Curse of Disability

AGE: 

Fan podcast – Breaking The Glass Slipper Maiden, Mother, and Crone: Ageism in Genre Fiction

Fan podcast – Woke Doctor Who The Women Who Waited

Essay – TV Tropes and Ageism: How Kids’ Pop Culture Promotes Discrimination

Doctor Who episode – Series 12 Episode 7 Can You Hear Me?

Episode Transcript: 

This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity. If you would prefer the original, unedited version, please let me know!

 

Illustrations of an old person on a flying broom modified as a wheelchair

Image via Tumblr: milkystreet on Harry Potter Disability Headcanons

[Intro music]

Welcome to Marginally Fannish, a show where we aim an intersectional lens at some of our favourite media and their fandoms.

[Intro music]

You’re listening to the sixth episode of Marginally Fannish. This time, I chat with Sanjana and Aparna about ableism and ageism in media. As fans from dominant groups in both instances (we’re young, able-bodied, and neurotypical), the three of us have massive blind-spots. But we’re trying to educate ourselves, and we’ve learned a lot about disability and age-based discrimination through fandom discussions. We love that fans do such an incredible job in raising awareness about so many issues!

Some of the things that we discuss in this episode include:

  • How disability is equated with villainy in fictional universes
  • The ableist and exaggerated representations of disability in stories which often reflect harmful tropes
  • The problematic impacts of “fixing” disabilities in science fiction and fantasy worlds by using technology or magic
  • Some of our favourite characters with disabilities
  • The social model of disability and how both fictional worlds like Hogwarts and the TARDIS as well as the real world need more accommodations to make them more accessible to all kinds of people
  • The parallels between the disabled community and other marginalised cultures, especially ableism and ageism
  • How older characters in Bollywood are used as comic relief
  • Our favourite older characters in media
  • The trouble with media and culture valuing youth, particularly at the cost of older women
  • Ageism in children’s literature and in fandom.

In our What If? sections, we wonder what the experiences of an elderly Hogwarts student would look like. We also age-flip characters to imagine what a young Minerva McGonagall would represent, how fun a hundred-year-old Aang would be, and what would happen if Grandma took some muffins to little Red Riding Hood instead? (We also accidentally discover our calling as Red Riding Hood fanfic writers).

Happy listening!

[Intro music]

Parinita: Hi, my name is Parinita.

Aparna: I’m Aparna.

Sanjana: And I’m Sanjana. And today we are here to discuss the depiction and the lack of depiction where disability and age are concerned in some of our favourite shows and books. And at the onset, we would like to acknowledge that we probably have huge blind-spots since none of us have any personal experiences with respect to either of the two topics. For example, until I heard Marissa Lingen talk on Breaking The Glass Slipper, I didn’t realise how problematic some of the portrayals were because I was taking it as my only – that this is how it probably goes. But as someone who doesn’t have any direct experience, I realised how important it is for us to have it right in popular media. And we’re going to talk about it a little more But this was one of the main things that came across to me that it was something that didn’t even strike me. And I think that’s a huge blind-spot right there.

Aparna: So I also realised that I was very out of my depth as far as talking about this is concerned. Mostly when people started describing how they saw, for example, autistic characters in the way Hermione is, they saw a form of autism or the way Luna is. And I realised that was completely lost on me. And that’s when I realised that there would be a big gap in my understanding of representation right away.

Parinita: I mean in this case, the thing is that all three of us are very much a part of the dominant group, right?

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: Where we’re learning about the lives and experiences of groups who are marginalised in culture. So the last time when we spoke, we were the ones on the other side. Whereas here, we’re able-bodied, no diagnosed mental illness. And all three of us are young enough that the media still offers characters who tell our stories.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: But we’re old enough that our thoughts and opinions aren’t dismissed. So we’re not really young women either.

Sanjana: Hmm.

Parinita: And I was thinking, when I was reading about disability, that it’s something that I’d encountered when I was a children’s bookseller in Mumbai. Where if I recommended a book which has a character with a visible disability on the cover, a couple of parents – not everybody – but a couple of parents instantly dismissed that book because their child doesn’t have a disability.

Sanjana: Hmm.

Parinita: So presumably their child doesn’t want to read about a character who has a disability. Which is obviously ridiculous because first of all, reading about diverse experiences which don’t mirror your own is great. And secondly, just because a character is disabled, that’s not their only personality trait.

Aparna: Exactly!

Parinita: Right? The story can be about so many other things. But then that made me wonder, now especially, how much I’ve gone out of my way to look for characters with disabilities to expand the diversity of my reading. And really, not much – shamefully. It’s not that I’m doing it purposely. It’s not that I’m thinking that I won’t connect with this character because they are disabled, either physically or mentally. It’s just it doesn’t occur to me. Like you said, Sana, it’s totally a blind-spot.

Sanjana: Hmm.

Parinita: And with age as well, I love the inclusion of all kinds of diversity. So I really appreciate it in the media that I see. Even with age, we’ve spoken about this before with Doctor Who just having more age groups on the show. But again, I’m not going out of my way to read these things. Whereas last year, I think I just started reading fantasy that was written by women. And it just started off unconsciously and then I realised I really liked these types of books.

Sanjana: Hmm.

Parinita: These books that are written just by women and centre women’s experiences in different ways. And now I feel like I need to do another reading experiment which fills in a bit of these blind-spots, these missing gaps.

Sanjana: Yeah, absolutely. Like you’re saying with parents looking at a book and dismissing it because it had a disabled character in it, this was a conversation that happened in our house only where somebody gave us some game. And I have a two-year-old so it was a spotting game. One of the people playing the game on the cover was a person in a wheelchair. And my mum looked at it and said, “Why do they need to show someone in a wheelchair?” And both of us said, “Why not? Why shouldn’t there be someone on a wheelchair?” And it was so easy to explain it to a two-year-old and it isn’t even that important, that daily a part of our lives. And just that much small representation in things makes a difference.

Parinita: And just normalizing it, right? Having that conversation.

Sanjana: Exactly! Like he’s sitting there and playing the board game, that’s all that matters. There doesn’t need to be a whole discussion around it. And with age, as I was listening to everyone talk about it, I realised that how much I love a flawed older character. And the importance of having a flawed older character and to take them away from this whole older age trope that keeps coming back to us.

Parinita: Of a wise mentor.

Aparna: Yeah.

Sanjana: Exactly. Of a wise mentor. That realisation as I read and I heard more is something that maybe now not a blind-spot but was, probably.

Parinita: But also just flawed, complex and nuanced characters of all kinds of abilities as well.

Sanjana: Absolutely.

Parinita: Age as well as disabilities. You don’t need to be this perfect, aspirational character because you have a disability so you’ve suddenly, magically transformed into this –

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: Ever-patient, ever-kind. But then on the flip side of that is where disabilities are being equated with being villainous. Which is something that I hadn’t considered before and it’s something that I think Breaking The Glass Slipper the podcast that we listened to, that mentioned. How characters with disabilities are equated with being villains.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: And I’d heard this about queer-coded characters before. So the example that I can think of off the top of my head is Ursula in The Little Mermaid.

Image of Ursula from The Little Mermaid

Sanjana: Hmm.

Parinita: Who I love. I love female villains.

Aparna: [laughs]

Parinita: I love over-the-top villains. But she is coded as a drag artist.

Sanjana: Hmm.

Parinita: Which is something that I had, again, never thought of but I was like oh that’s interesting!

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: And it’s actually quite horrifying to think about that just because you have a disability, it makes you a villain.

Aparna: Yeah.

Sanjana: Yeah exactly. Because the interesting point that they brought up was that it’s like trying to show – mirror the inner feelings physically. And then we started listing down characters and examples and there were –

Parinita: Yeah, like Voldemort.

Sanjana: Yeah!

Parinita: It’s something that I hadn’t thought of. I never thought of him as a person who is disabled.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: But then they spoke about how he’s both psychologically disabled because of his childhood.

Sanjana: Hmm

Parinita: Which we don’t really know has been traumatic. We know that Harry’s has been full of abuse.

Sanjana: Hmm.

Parinita: But Voldemort, sure he was in an orphanage, but it seemed more that he had delusions of grandeur than any –

Aparna: Yeah.

Parinita: Any mistreatment there. But he was also physically disfigured, just like you said, and that’s become a joke, right? His noselessness like he doesn’t have a nose.

Sanjana: Yeah!

Parinita: And he looks like a snake. When they were talking about that on the podcast it also made me think of how in the US, when there are these mass shooters who if they’re white, people will enquire into their mental background.

Aparna: Yes.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: Whereas people of different races and religions, they’re held up as representatives of their whole race or religion. So even Voldemort, sure, the psychological trauma he might have had, but I don’t think that that was cause for going on a genocidal rampage.

Aparna: [laughs]

Sanjana: Yeah, not justification enough.

Parinita: [laughs] Another example I thought of was Captain Hook

Aparna: Yes!

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: Which I hadn’t thought of. And his disability, it didn’t clock as a disability, but of course it is very much a disability.

Image of the Disney version of Captain Hook from the animated movie Peter Pan

Aparna: Yeah.

Parinita: And he’s also being terrorised by the crocodile who was responsible for this disability. Can you guys think of any other examples?

Sanjana: I thought of Zuko and how his whole arc changes when he gets the scar on one eye and is disfigured and how it becomes this whole villainous thing. And up until then, I’d not at all thought of it. And Darth Vader.

Image of Zuko from Avatar: The Last Airbender

Aparna: Hmm.

Sanjana: Is another good example.

Aparna: And you guys had an interesting discussion about Bran and Hodor and the difference between their characters as well, right?

Parinita: Yeah because Bran has a physical disability that he’s acquired and Hodor has a mental disability that Bran … may have been responsible for?

Sanjana: Pretty much.

Parinita: I’m not quite sure with all this time travel thing. Spoilers but yeah.

Aparna: [laughs]

Sanjana: Hmm.

Parinita: And also I was really interested in the class implications of this as well.

Sanjana: Yes!

Parinita: Because Bran’s disability is obviously more important. Bran is more important than Hodor who is this disposable person because he’s a servant and he has to die to protect Bran so that he can become a king?

Sanjana: Yeah.

Aparna: [laughs]

Parinita: Not problematic at all.

Sanjana: Yeah and how his disability becomes this thing that gives him all this power and becomes this underlying reason for him being this all-knowing, all-seeing –

Parinita: Yeah, that’s true. Because he becomes this magical person because he is disabled.

Sanjana: Yeah, exactly. It’s that that causes like, you can still do it. Let me give you some abilities.

Image from the TV series Game of Thrones featuring the character of Hodor carrying the character of Bran on his back

Parinita: And I think this would have been fine if there had been a whole array of disabled characters in media to choose from.

Sanjana and Aparna: Yeah.

Parinita: So that you know there’s room for villains and heroes and just regular people who just I don’t know want to eat some cake in a café but oh no New York is being attacked by aliens again!

Aparna: [laughs]

Parinita: So you know that would have been fine. But it’s just that there are such few representations of disability. And the ones that there are aren’t great.

Sanjana: Haan. Going back to what we were discussing, as you’re saying, that the importance to normalise it and to just have characters going about their business is very important. Because popular media has this underlying purpose that they feel the necessity to over-compensate and fix the disability with these little things or big things which is really problematic.

Parinita: Yeah, for sure. Especially in science fiction and fantasy, where you’re using either technology or magic to fix a disability. And that’s a bit troubling because in the real world, you don’t have this magical ability to fix a disability. And surely people with physical or mental disabilities deserve to see themselves represented.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: I think on the Witch, Please episode they said that, “The assumption is that if you have a disability, it’s a fate worse than death.”

Sanjana: Hmm.

Parinita: That if you have a disability, you’re suffering.

Aparna: Or that if you have a disability, you’d want to get rid of it. Like your prime aim in life or the dream is to be rid of that disability or somehow be cured. What had got me thinking about that was the difference between physical and mental disabilities and how mental disabilities are considered more a part of your identity than physical disabilities are. Nobody would think of fixing with magic an OCD if you have an obsessive compulsive disorder. Whereas if you are in a wheelchair or if you have hearing loss, then people will magic it away instantly is the assumption – is how the characters seem to be written in Harry Potter for example.

Parinita: Yeah and in that Reddit thread that discussed disabilities in Hogwarts and basically about how physically disabled people would travel around Hogwarts, a lot of comments wanted to do that as well where they were envisioning these magical solutions to fix disabilities. But I really liked that there were people who pointed out, exactly as you did Paru, that for some people, it is very much a part of their identity and maybe they don’t want it to be fixed. But they have magical solutions so instead of wheelchairs, perhaps it’s a broomchair. And they’re able to levitate so those moving staircases which are a health hazard even for a person who is able-bodied.

Aparna: [laughs] Yeah.

Parinita: For them just to be able to navigate Hogwarts, to make life easier for them, and not just make it difficult.

Aparna: Yeah. And the more you notice how disability is represented in media, it’s always exaggerated and it’s always the extreme. Just during my reading, I came across this thing of how disabled people are always put in one of three categories. In that either they’re celebrated for doing something completely normal like, “Oh you graduated!” and then they celebrate it for that. Or there is too much pressure to be extraordinary. Like the character is written such that all people who can’t hear should become great composers. And the third is to just generate sympathy for the protagonist because they have somebody in their circle of friends or family who has a disability of some kind and then that makes them look like a more empathetic character. So I wanted to discuss a few well-written disabled characters or well-written characters.

Parinita: So the most recent example that I can think of was in The Dragon Prince. I think her name is Amaya. She’s a military commander so she’s in charge of the troops of the humans in that show. And I know you both haven’t watched it so I’m not going to give you spoilers.

Aparna: Thank you, thank you.

Parinita: [laughs] I know how important spoilers are to all of us. But just in terms of how her character is, she’s deaf and it’s not either made into this exceptional thing or it’s not something that gets in the way of her job either. It’s just a part of her identity. And she has an interpreter so I’m assuming they’re using American Sign Language in the show since it’s American. But that American Sign Language isn’t translated either. So it’s like we are the ones who are glimpsing into their culture but there’s no need for them to explain their culture or their language.

Aparna: Oh yeah, that’s pretty nice.

Parinita: Which I thought was really interesting and really well done.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: And she is also just this really fantastic character and she makes these jokes and things while she’s signing which someone who does speak that language, will have a greater insight into. So they’ll have that double layer of identification whereas for us, we’re a little bit on the outside looking in, but it’s still not in a way that’s voyeuristic at all.

Gif of Amaya and Janai from The Dragon Prince. Janai says: We are not ... friends. She is my prisoner. Amaya's responds by signing to the listeners but her signing is untranslated.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: It’s just a regular part of her. So I really like her.

Sanjana: Toph comes to mind from The Last Airbender. When I was listing down just general representations of disabled characters, I didn’t even put her down as an example because I forgot completely that she was blind. I just in general forgot about the fact because the fact that she’s disabled is so normal that it just becomes part of conversation. Though she does learn to bend really well because she can’t see. And that maybe falls into the over-compensating part. But she’s not this great character in terms of relationships and just because she is blind, she’s not this –

Parinita: Yeah.

Sanjana: You know uh –

Aparna: Sad character.

Sanjana: Sad character who everybody adores and everybody likes. And even as she grows up, even in Korra, she has flawed family relations

Aparna: Yeah.

Sanjana: She has a flawed relationship with her children and there’s a lot of realness to her character because that is how most relationships go and it’s very refreshing to see her character.

Gif of Toph and Sokka from Avatar: The Last Airbender. Sokka says: I found something that you're not going to like. [He flourishes a piece of paper] Toph replies: Well it sounds like a sheet of paper. But I guess you're referring to what's on the piece of paper.

Parinita: And, of course, these are the same people who made The Dragon Prince as well.

Sanjana: Exactly!

Aparna: Yeah.

Sanjana: So they’re probably doing something right.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aparna: Yeah. And another person who I feel does right in terms of just the way he writes characters is Rick Riordan who’s written the Percy Jackson series and the Magnus Chase series and everything.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aparna: And just I was very struck by how in the first Percy Jackson book at the beginning before we find out that he’s a demigod, he basically is a kid who has ADHD. And it’s just explained in such a cool way of, oh he has battle reflexes and that’s why he isn’t equipped for just the regular world. Which I find is just such a fascinating way of exploring it and explaining it. And that’s when when I read further, I realised that he has a son with ADHD. Am I right?

Book cover of Percy Jackson and the Lightning Thief

Parinita: Yeah.

Aparna: Yeah. And that means he has a lived experience of it and how it makes such a big difference to have people who either know what they’re talking about via personal experiences or through research but just have done their study before writing characters. Even –

Parinita: He also has a deaf character in the Magnus Chase series.

Aparna: Yeah, I was just going to say that.

Parinita: Hearthstone.

Aparna: Yes.

Parinita: And it’s such a mainstream set of books. Rick Riordan books, they’re not cult or niche or anything. They’re hugely popular all over the world.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: Which is why I love it even more where there is this explicit representation of all different kinds of diversity.

Aparna: Exactly.

Parinita: But also yeah, since we’re talking about disability, of specifically disability.

Aparna: Yeah. And the problem is that in the media, what it lacks, like you said, this wouldn’t be such a point of discussion if we had so many examples that some of them were a bit problematic as compared to others. But when its representation is so lacking, what’s missing is nuance and that’s what makes all of this seem very one-dimensional. And just the way it reflects in literature or any media that we consume automatically has a vicious cycle with the real world. I’m an editor of picture books and we have this author called Salil Chaturvedi who is disabled and he was talking about his book. And there’s one very cool thing that he said that was, “To be a disabled activist, all you have to do is be active. Because when people see you out and about and when you are more present in the real world is when people will – public spaces will cater to you.” And I feel like it’s a similar relationship with media and the more that you see disabled people in books and movies and TV shows, the more … the way they are treated in society will start to change.

Parinita: Absolutely. And what you said about nuance as well, I think it’s something Marissa Lingen brought up in her podcast where she was critiquing the all-or-nothing representation in media.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: When it comes to disability. So there isn’t nuance in the representation of disabilities when it does exist because it’s always shown in the extremes. So you know it’s either you’re blind or you’re deaf or you’re unable to walk, and this impacts non-disabled people’s reaction to people with either invisible or partially-visible disabilities out in the real world. So the example she gave is when partially-sighted people are assumed to be completely blind and if there is anything that non-disabled people see that goes against their preconceived notion about blindness or about sightedness, then they become angry at that other person because they think they’re not disabled enough. Or they act as if the person is lying. Or if someone with a chronic condition needs to use a wheelchair sometimes, but not all the times, and can walk sometimes. So if a person sees them going from one state to the other, they think that oh this person has been making it up all along. So there are very dangerous implications for people with disabilities.

Sanjana: Yeah. When we were reading up and listening to some of the fan podcasts in preparation for this episode, one of the themes that kept being  repeated and being echoed through all of it was that there is a lack of space given to disability to exist within futuristic and fantasy worlds. And I was discussing this with Paru the other day and she told me about Afrofuturism and how there is this genre born out of the fact that there isn’t enough representation of black people in futuristic worlds. And how it’s strange that people don’t think that racism would be something that gets solved in the 2100s. And how this is similar to disability being portrayed because it doesn’t leave any space for normalcy to exist. You just said that Marissa Lingen points out that most people get their window into disability through popular media. And so it is important for that portrayal to be right because otherwise every other person who meets a blind person in the real world for the first time will expect them to have this great hearing because that’s all we’re shown in popular media. It’s very important to make accommodations for disabled people in society and in media and in speculative fiction in general.

Parinita: No, absolutely. And we were talking about Harry Potter, for example. So one of the articles that we read about J. K. Rowling’s view of disability in the magical world. And how she did think about disability when she was writing the book series.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: And you do see some disabled characters in her books. So there’s Mad-Eye Moody who has a very visible disability.

Sanjana: Haan.

Parinita: Then there’s George Weasley who acquires a disability with his ear –

Sanjana: Correct.

Parinita: Later in the books. Then there’s Frank and Alice Longbottom who have this really tragic story because their disability seems to have completely taken them outside the society.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: And outside their son’s life and there doesn’t seem to be any way to …

Sanjana: Yeah and absolutely and it becomes this reason for Neville’s life being so horrible. It, at the end of the day, leaves them as just a plot point. They aren’t really explored in any other way. So you don’t know much about what they are and how they –

Parinita: Yeah and it’s a bit like – it’s they are there and their disability is there to almost give Neville a tragic backstory.

Aparna and Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: So they’re centering an able person – although in the Witch, Please episode, they did read Neville as neurodiverse. So I re-read the Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone book recently. And when I was reading it, I did think that he could be read as neurodiverse as well.

Sanjana: Hmm.

Parinita: Perhaps someone with dyspraxia or vertigo. Because he constantly needs a leg up through the portrait hole to get into the Gryffindor Common Room. He’s not very good at balance and coordination. He’s also really forgetful. Like all these traits that could be read as … and again this is not something that I would have otherwise ever been able to read into the series. It’s just that I’ve been talking to people and listening to disabled people’s perspectives.

Gif of Neville Longbottom from the first movie Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone. Neville says: "I'll fight you."

Sanjana: Yeah, absolutely right.

Parinita: And in that case, Neville’s disabilities, if he can be read as a disabled character, they’re mostly played off for laughs. They’re not …

Aparna: Yeah.

Parinita: He’s this comic fodder. And that makes it even sadder.

Sanjana: Yeah, it does. And you’re right. And the fact is that you have these popular characters, the ones that you are falling in love with, making fun of the characters that possibly aren’t written as up-to-the-mark or cannot cope with everything that’s happening around. And that is where lies the problem. Because you end up as a kid reading it for the first time and you end up looking at and siding with the ones who are laughing. And the ones who are making fun of these characters and that’s how you grow up.  You end up doing that and by no fault of yours.

Parinita: No, of course. And just as you were saying that, it just made me think that Neville’s parents as well that they’re very much – they have no agency. They have no sense of anything except to make the reader feel sad for Neville.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: Because Harry feels sad for Neville.

Aparna: Um hmm.

Parinita: And that’s all. That’s what they’re there for.

Sanjana: Yeah. That is it.

Parinita: So you know when I was doing my master’s, I was also researching fan communities. And in that, one of the things that I came across, one of the fan texts, there was a huge comment thread about it, was about Harry’s behaviour in Order of the Phoenix.

Sanjana: Hmm.

Parinita: Which I remember, when I was reading it as a teenager, when it first came out, I was also like why is Harry so angry and so grumpy throughout this whole book? He’s shouting at everybody. And then there was this whole nuanced discussion about how he has PTSD in the book because of Cedric’s death in Goblet of Fire.

Sanjana and Aparna: Hmm.

Parinita: And there were people who were identifying all the different behaviours and signs and symptoms because they have experience with PTSD. And that made me think of the character in this whole other way. Because again, especially in a children’s book, but even otherwise in mainstream media at large, if it’s not explicitly mentioned, then people who don’t have the vocabulary for this, like us, who don’t have any experience with these disabilities or illnesses, we will never be able to understand that this is what’s going on.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: Because it’s not our experience and we’ll never learn then that that’s also an experience that exists and that’s something that he was going through which might make us more explicitly empathetic, if that makes sense?

Sanjana: Yeah, absolutely. No, it does, because I till date keep citing the fifth book as my least favourite because it has Harry just whining through the whole thing. And when you pointed this out and we discussed this last time and it just – it really does throw things in a new light and it really does help understand the development of the character or what the character is going through a lot more.

Parinita: Absolutely. And I think in The Gayly Prophet video that we watched, Lark spoke about – or somebody had written into the podcast and they’d seen being a Squib

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: In the magical world as a magical disability.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: Which, again, makes perfect sense but something that we would never have thought about.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: Because the Squibs in the series are again played off as these you know nutty –

Sanjana: No but really, one of the first notes that I made for this podcast was when I was trying to find examples in Harry Potter especially, so I was writing down stuff and I suddenly said wouldn’t Squibs be akin to being disabled in the magical society. They are born supposed to be magical, they are supposed to be able to do something which they are not.

Parinita: Yeah.

Sanjana: Which basically reads into the definition of being disabled. When you sent this video they, of course, went a lot deeper into it and made some very good points.

Parinita: Yeah because Argus Filch –

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: And how he’s seen as this defective wizard. He’s stigmatised by mainstream wizarding society, by all the students that are in Hogwarts. And the only two Squibs that we see are ones again who are made fun of.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: So there’s Mrs. Figgs, there’s Argus Filch.

Sanjana: And they made an interesting comparison to real life about how he ends up doing janitorial duties because that’s all that he’s good for in the magical world. Which draws a comparison to the real world, how kids with certain disabilities are given a certain kind of job because that’s all that’s expected of them.

Parinita: But also Filch, he doesn’t have any magical powers and he’s given this job to … he seems to be the sole caretaker of Hogwarts.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: This giant school which would have been so much easier to do with someone with magic, right? Wouldn’t you think?

Sanjana: Yeah, and it feels like a bit of a punishment.

Parinita: Yeah!

Sanjana: To be given that job.

Parinita: No wonder he’s angry and hates everybody.

Sanjana: Yeah, absolutely.

Parinita: I would be pissed off as well if that had been me. But also, just reading about all these different perspectives on disability, it made me think of how it’s so similar to our conversation about race. Where the representations have some of the same issues. Because it’s like this marginalised culture which you can’t just include superficially in your stories. So to tick the diversity quota, you can’t just have a person with disabilities. You need to properly research the culture and you need to understand the harmful tropes and stereotypes so that you don’t perpetuate them before you can represent them sensitively. And then there’s also the issue with metaphorical representations of disability. With Harry Potter, Lupin being a werewolf.

Sanjana: Hmm.

Parinita: J. K. Rowling has said that that’s akin – in her head when she was writing it, she was drawing the comparison between blood illnesses like HIV, so chronic conditions.

Sanjana: Hmm.

Parinita: And so obviously it’s a metaphorical thing. And in the Doctor Who episode that we watched, it was aliens and mental illness. That was a metaphorical representation of it.

Aparna and Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: So I wonder whether – and I can’t speak for people with disabilities – but if this metaphorical mental illness representation or chronic illness representation bothers people with these conditions in the same way how we complained that the representations of race in metaphorical ways is not enough to understand the issues.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Aparna: See, I have no problem with metaphorical representation if they do something with it. If it’s a subversion. But if Lupin as a werewolf is treated badly, it just reinforces what is already happening in society. It’s not a comment on anything, it’s not a subversion of anything. Which is when I’m not really a fan of the way it’s treated.

Parinita: I completely agree with you. Though when I was thinking more about this, I was thinking that in Hogwarts, Dumbledore does make a special accommodation so that Lupin, in spite of being a werewolf, can have a semblance of a normal life. When we were talking about this, this hadn’t occurred to me. But then I was listening to this other podcast, Reading, Writing, Rowling and they were talking about werewolves. So in that they mentioned how Lupin, he was bitten when he was four years old. And his parents were afraid that he wouldn’t be accepted into Hogwarts because he’s a werewolf so everyone else would be afraid of him. But then Dumbledore is the one who went to Lupin’s family and said that he planted the Whomping Willow and built the Shrieking Shack and accommodated the Hogwarts society to be able to accept someone with his condition. And that’s where Lupin found a community and friends, really good friends. But then, like you were saying Paru, when he went out into the wizarding society, there was nothing. It was replicating the same real-life things.

Aparna: Yeah.

Parinita: So he had no work and he had no prospects. And when it was revealed that he was a werewolf, he had to quit Hogwarts as well. So he’s just had a really sad life.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: And in the Witch, Please episode, so this was another thing that I hadn’t thought of which again made me think of parallels between marginalised cultures. So in that they mentioned disability, people with disabilities, it’s like a culture which needs to assimilate to the dominant culture to be respected as equal. So the dominant culture in this case would be able-bodied and you know non-disabled people. So it’s similar I feel in the US, how anybody who is not white and not Christian, so Asians or Latinx people or you know anybody – queer – everybody has to assimilate to this certain idea of being American. In India, it’s similar as well. Like you have to have – although we have a lot of different cultures depending on which part of the country you go to. But to be respected as equal and to be treated as equal, you need to … be a certain kind of person.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: So that I found really interesting and also really uncomfortable.

Sanjana: Yeah and J. K. Rowling does this with Lupin. Because they also mention the same thing that eventually he gets married and he has a family and he does all the normal things to be looked at as a whole character. And it would have been fine if he hadn’t had that part of his story arc. But for him to feel normal, the need to give your character all those things to make him – because that is what society expects of you – is what is problematic.

Parinita: Yeah, absolutely. But I really like that even if creators themselves are failing us a bit, again, fandom is filling the gap when it comes to representation and awareness about disabilities.

Sanjana: Yes.

Parinita: So that BBC article that we read about “Harry Potter and the Curse of Disability” which featured these fanfiction writers.

Sanjana: Yes.

Parinita: And this was written, I think, a long time ago – early 2000s.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: So I’m sure there’s more now. I haven’t gone looking for it. But basically fans who have disabilities but don’t see this represented in the fiction that they like, specifically Harry Potter.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: Because one of the disabled fanfic writers, La Guera, was quoted as saying, “It occurred to me as I read the books that J. K. Rowling has representatives of every race and creed -” Which, side note, yeah that’s problematic as well.

Aparna: [laughs]

Parinita: Yeah. “… but she has no disabled students of any kind. And it struck me as very sad.”

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: So to counter this, she herself wrote a story about someone with cerebral palsy and the nitty-gritties of it. So what a difference it makes to, like you were saying Paru, for someone who has either the lived experience or is close to the lived experience, when they represent it themselves, it makes so much of a difference.

Aparna: Yeah.

Sanjana: Yeah, absolutely. And going back to the Reddit thread that we were discussing earlier on, one of the users made a very interesting – caret-top he was. He made a very interesting – he/she I don’t know – made a very interesting observation. Because it was a whole discussion about how Hogwarts doesn’t have any disabled people. And how magic would cure a disability and he seemed to be the only one saying that how many people would actually send a kid to a school that doesn’t cater to their disability? Or doesn’t make room for their disability. And that got me thinking that how much does Hogwarts or the TARDIS make room? How inaccessible it is to disabled people.

Parinita: Yeah, absolutely. Because travelling through space and time, what accommodations are there in place for people with either mental or physical disabilities to travel and have adventures? Do they not want to do all these things? Like surely –

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: Although me and Jack, we have this conversation, he’s very against time-travelling and I’m very pro-time-travelling.

Aparna: [laughs]

Parinita: Because he thinks I’ll mess up the timeline and it’ll result in all these consequences. So those are just ideological differences. But I’m sure even among people in the disabled community, there must be people who want to go on adventures, right?

Sanjana: Yeah, absolutely. So how many disabled characters have you guys seen on the TARDIS? I don’t watch Doctor Who so I can’t …

Parinita: In the New Who, in the new Doctor Who, I can only think of Ryan, who is the companion in the most recent avatar.

Aparna: Haan.

Parinita: So Jodie. And he has dyspraxia which is mentioned early on in the show, when he comes on. And it’s dealt with a little bit but then we’ve not really heard about it for a long time now.

Sanjana: Okay.

Parinita: Paru, can you think of any?

Aparna: No, I can’t actually.

Parinita: Yeah, I don’t –

Aparna: Generally, any people travelling have always been very able-bodied.

Parinita: But perhaps that’s because, something like you’re saying Sana, which is that you’re not making any accommodations for –

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: People and it’s like in society as well, right? I think in The Gayly Prophet episode, he called it the social model of disability. Which is, I believe, it’s what disability rights activists refer to. So basically that disability itself is not – it’s a social and structural problem. It’s not the problem of the person who is disabled. It’s the problem of society that can’t accommodate these different bodies and different brains in their daily functioning.

Aparna: Yeah.

Parinita: So they’re inaccessible to anybody who doesn’t fit the norm. Who is considered to be the norm? Which body is considered to be normal and which brain is considered to be normal?

Sanjana: Yeah.

Aparna: Correct. Which brings us to the other part of our episode today. Which is age. And there’s a reason that we combined age and disability into one category. Because it’s another section of society that’s dealt a pretty bad hand both in terms of representation in the media and in terms of just how they’re treated in society. And there are a few obvious similarities in the experiences in being treated as secondary citizens or are either someone to be pitied or someone who does not somehow make it to being a protagonist but always close by. And again, sorely lacking in nuanced representations. Like all grandmothers bake and knit and spoil their grandkids. [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs]

Aparna: If you had to generalize, that’s just how you would picture a grandmother, and that’s not a coincidence. And there are some interesting additional parallels that we discussed like the way they’re desexualised.

Parinita: Yeah because older people have outlived their attractiveness, right?

Aparna: [laughs]

Sanjana: Yeah! [laughs]

Parinita: Once you reach a certain age, no that’s all, there’s nothing. No romance, no sex, we want nothing. And people with disabilities are anyway seen as asexual.

Aparna: Correct.

Parinita: And people can be asexual and disabled people may also be asexual. But not all disabled people are asexual. So just the diversity of representations is missing.

Aparna: Exactly.

Parinita: Or they’re seen as lesser than people – basically both people beyond a certain age are seen as lesser than the norm. And people with disabilities are seen lesser than the norm. So you don’t cater to society’s idea of what is the regular person.

Aparna: Correct. And Sana, you also brought up the point that sometimes even old people are used as comic relief in stories. Many times in Bollywood movies, this happens.

Sanjana: Yes.

Aparna: Because they’re used for comic relief. Someone who is just out of their depth when the discussion is going on between the main characters.

Sanjana: Yeah. Or they have this older person and the loss of hearing. That’s been used so much that it’s not even funny anymore. The fact that oh he’s older, and then the only bit of his conversation is him mispronouncing the words and re-pronouncing them and adding to the general confusion and comic relief. Which is a bit tiring now.

Parinita: And not being able to handle technology. “Aaaah technology! No! I can’t!”

Sanjana and Aparna laugh.

Sanjana: Yes!

Aparna: Whereas that can happen to young people also.

Parinita: Absolutely.

Aparna: I’m talking very much about myself.

Parinita: [laughs]

Sanjana: And the onset of this episode where we spent ten minutes in angst about technology.

Aparna: Was it only ten minutes, Sana?

Sanjana: [laughs]

Parinita: It felt like – like this month [March, 2020] it’s just felt like ten years. Those ten minutes felt much longer. And going through all these fan podcasts and essays and comments and everything that we’ve been looking at, I couldn’t help but draw parallels to our current situation just in terms of the pandemic and the implications of social isolation as well as the virus on both physical and mental health. So not just the virus itself but with the lockdown to contain it as well.

Aparna: Yeah

Parinita: Now people are being asked to work from home, university lectures, at least here in the UK, are moving online and some conferences are being cancelled and online options are being considered. And this is what people with disabilities as well as people who are less mobile due to age or even caregiving circumstances – for whatever reason – they’ve been asking this for a really long time. I’ve been going through these threads and conversations on Twitter and Facebook and they have always wanted more options just for accessibility

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: And especially with the technology that we have available today, people with disabilities could have easily been included as well as older people who may not be able to get to where you are for whatever reason. But there have been no systemic accommodations made. But now suddenly now that everybody has to go through this, oh suddenly, it’s really easy to do all these things. Oh yeah you can totally work from home, oh yeah we can totally do university … everything basically online.

Sanjana: Absolutely.

Aparna: Yeah.

Sanjana: Yeah, you’re absolutely right. It’s easily suddenly shoved down everybody’s throat and they’re like ohhh hmm, is this what you were talking about?

Aparna: So let’s do the same exercise that we did for disability representation with age representation. Can you name some well-written old characters? For example, I’ll start. The witches in the Discworld series, especially Granny Weatherwax is one of the most [laughs] I think just the characters in the Discworld series are very lovely-ly written because all their attributes … it’s not like they cease to matter but they just seem to celebrate whatever they are. Even if they are an orangutan who’s a librarian.

Sanjana: And another show, which clearly I seem to be giving only as good examples so they’re clearly doing something very correct, is I thought Avatar: The Last Airbender had some very good older characters. They have this whole underlying society of older people which was very cool. For a kid’s show, they were very present. I love Uncle Iroh.

Aparna: Uncle Iroh!

Sanjana: He’s such a complex but fascinating older character. And he’s one of my favourite fictional characters of all times.

Gif of Uncle Iroh and Zuko from Avatar: The Last Airbender. Uncle Iroh says: You're looking at the rare white dragon bush. Its leaves make a tea so delicious it's *heartbreaking*

Parinita: I think in Anne With An E, they had some fantastic older characters.

Sanjana: Yes, yes!

Parinita: Great-aunt Josephine was excellently badass. I loved her.

Sanjana: Yes.

Parinita: And I also loved seeing Marilla and Matthew and Rachel’s interactions as well.

Aparna: Yeah.

Parinita: Even though it’s very much about Anne and young people, but I loved the way in which older people were also – their lives and their relationships and all the complexities and everything within the way that they engage with the world was also shown.

Image of Rachel and Marilla from Anne With An E

Aparna and Sanjana: Yeah!

Sanjana: Absolutely.

Aparna: Actually, all parents were given just a lot of – even Diana’s parents had a whole story.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aparna: They had a lot of personality.

Sanjana: And I really like the scene where they are helping Bash with the newborn baby and then one of them says, you know we’ve done this, we’ve raised our kids, we are not built for this anymore. We are old!

Parinita and Aparna laugh

Parinita: Yeah!

Sanjana: We don’t want to do this anymore. And I just thought that was just so … it was so normal.

Parinita: Exactly! And it was shown in a way like they weren’t – it wasn’t their relationships with somebody else. It was just their lives and how they engage with everything else.

Sanjana: Absolutely.

Parinita: Which I think in Woke Doctor Who, they mentioned about how media, just like society and culture, seems to value youth so much. And older women especially. So you know it’s age and there’s also that intersection with gender there where older men are allowed to play a more active role in media and society than older women. Once you hit a certain age as a woman, yes goodbye. We have no need for your services anymore.

Aparna: [laughs]

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: And if they are, they’re associated with bitterness and they’re pitted against younger women. And they’re either jealous or they’re competitive or they’re just sad that, oh no, my youth has gone. My life is over. Whereas in this, in Anne With An E, there was so much more. They weren’t sad about their lives. They just had their lives and they were going on living it.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: They didn’t have the same experiences as the younger characters had but there was room given to explore both of them. And yeah, I loved it.

Aparna: Yeah. And in non-fantasy, I also wanted to mention that two characters that I really like are Diane in The Good Fight, which is a lawyerly show. But she’s older, very well-written. She was a supporting character in another show and she got her own spin-off. But she’s not at all like a sympathetic character always. She’s a very grey character and she’s definitely an older woman trying to … She’s always the meanest person in the room.

Parinita: [laughs]

Sanjana: Yeah.

Aparna: And doesn’t take any crap from anyone. She’s a very well-written character. So that’s one. And House from the show House is also oldish I guess. He is not old really but –

Sanjana: Old only.

Aparna: He’s older than most protagonists tend to be.

Parinita: Hmm.

Aparna: And has a disability and is a really, really well-written character. At least in the initial seasons of the show.

Sanjana: Yeah in the initial seasons, yeah he is.

Aparna: And it’s just a very well-rounded, non-sympathetic character. I always like these non-sympathetic characters.

Parinita: [laughs]

Aparna: Who tend to win my heart eventually.

Sanjana: And somebody made a very interesting point on one of the podcasts that we heard. Which was I think Breaking The Glass Slipper only; the episode in which they spoke about age. And the whole Harry and Dumbledore relationship was very interesting. I had not seen it like that at all. But as the books go, and Harry grows up, he sees from Dumbledore being this older mentor in his life, he becomes this flawed character who had a lot of things going on in his old age.

Parinita: Yeah, he starts off as this stereotypical wise mentor in the first few books.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: But especially in Half-Blood Prince and Deathly Hallows, we realise that uh okay maybe he might have been a genocidal maniac as well for love, I guess.

Sanjana and Aparna laugh

Parinita: Except then he came back.

Sanjana: And also their relationship becomes from being the mentor to Harry calling him out on his crap. And saying that you’re being stupid about this. And just speak to me! And open up!

Parinita: And don’t be so useless. You don’t need to be so cryptic.

Sanjana: Yeah!

Aparna: Exactly!

Parinita: You could have given us more information and helped us along faster.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: No need for all this drama and all this mystery.

Sanjana: And now! It is time for our ever so famous uh

Parinita: [laughs]

Sanjana: Thing.

Parinita: Amongst a total of three people!

Sanjana: That we must do on all podcasts [laughs] is our What If? section.

Aparna: I feel like it should have some theme music.

Sanjana: Yeah, I think we’ll come up with some theme music.

Aparna: I always suggest [makes sound effect]

Parinita: [laughs]

Aparna: Because it’s like a question mark. But you guys have been very dismissive of it in the past so I’m not going to do it.

Parinita: I feel like we can look for better music, Paru. [laughs]

Aparna: Just because you got fancy art of yourself, Parinita, now you want better music.

Parinita: [laughs]

Sanjana: Well … so! Welcome to the What If? section. Let me turn my page to where we have made some notes.

Parinita: [laughs]

Sanjana: Okay! So this What If? takes you down a journey where we flip the age of some of our favourite characters. To see how their life might have played out or how their characters might have played out or how their temperament may have been different if they were of a different age. We start in the world of Hogwarts with McGonagall.

Parinita: Yeah.

Sanjana: Parinita, would you like to start?

Parinita: Yeah, so for me, I thought it would be really interesting – so again, like I said I was re-reading the Harry Potter book. When Harry first meets McGonagall as an eleven-year-old, she’s described as having black hair. The movies have influenced our brains and our imaginations so much because she’s this obviously much older person. But I thought it would be really interesting if she had been this young, badass, stern teacher.

Sanjana: Absolutely! Yeah.

Parinita: And a capable witch who’s commanding respect. Because especially in a situation like a male-dominated like … well life. Male-dominated life.

Sanjana: Yeah. [laughs]

Aparna: [laughs]

Parinita: You know younger women do have to … like all three of us are lucky that we work in predominantly women – most of our co-workers are women. But I’ve heard from other places, in education as well, just women have to prove themselves so much more in this male-dominated structure, any sort of structure. So the idea of McGonagall being young and badass and just commanding respect wherever she goes, as a young woman in this old-man school.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: Where there are some really terrible people.

Sanjana: Um hmm!

Parinita: She would be really cool. She would be this young, powerful woman and everyone loves her but is also very afraid of her. Which is how I think all women should be treated.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: You love them and you’re a bit afraid of them.

Aparna: [laughs]

Sanjana: Absolutely. I agree. I couldn’t agree more. Okay. So our second example takes us to Aang and the fact that what if under the ice – maybe not a hundred years but he had aged; not stood still in time. But what if he had come out of that – the big block of ice – a little – a much older person? And he was the main protagonist of this kid’s show. How would that have played out? Aparna?

Aparna: It would have been pretty cool. We were discussing this and, like you mentioned, to see like an older Aang learning from all those kids and them being the mentor for him would have been really nice to see. And also I feel like he might have been taken more seriously. I don’t know or he would have more – Aang would have had more angst because –

Sanjana and Parinita laugh

Aparna: He would actually have lost a lot of his life in the ice.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Aparna: So he might not have been as silly or mad like the way he is.

Parinita: I would have loved had he been a hundred and eleven years old and been as silly and mad. But then he gets to do all these –

Aparna: Yeah! Because mind-wise –

Parinita: And he’d be all, oh no old bones!

Aparna: [laughs] Yeah! If he was physically old but then he had not aged otherwise, it would have been quite fun.

Sanjana: Yeah, it would have been quite fun to watch.

Parinita: Yeah, I would have loved to!

Sanjana: A hundred-year-old man going around learning from kids and being a kid and making air scooters and things, that would have been really fun.

Aparna: Yeah.

Parinita: And he’s discovering this new world as well.

Aparna: Yeah, exactly.

Parinita: Which is the future! So all these new things. Oh I want to watch this show now!

Sanjana: Yes! I totally do.

Parinita: [laughs]

Sanjana: And our last What If? takes us to the world of fairy tales. And to a particular one with a wolf and a girl in a red hood. And [laughs] yes you guessed it right, it’s Red Riding Hood.

Parinita: [laughs]

Sanjana: I’ve taken this What If? section very seriously.

Parinita: I love it!

Aparna: And yet you did not like my theme music.

Parinita: [laughs]

Sanjana: I didn’t say anything to it!

Aparna: You scowled at it.

Sanjana: Anyway! Going back to our little Red Riding Hood – and this was Aparna’s idea which was brilliant – is that what if Grandma was taking some muffins to Red Riding Hood? And Red Riding Hood had been gobbled up? What would have happened then?

Aparna: Firstly I don’t think grandma would have spoken to a stranger.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Aparna: Hiding in the forest and given her a dress.

Sanjana: Absolutely.

Aparna: So that’s one thing.

Parinita: I think the grandmother would have been wiser and would have been able to realise that it’s a wolf in a dress.

Aparna: [laughs]

Parinita: And not a human. Like excuse me little Red Riding Hood, I realise that you’ve been this sheltered child. But do you not know the difference between skin and fur?

Sanjana: [laughs]

Aparna: He was wearing her grandmother’s clothes okay!

Sanjana: Maybe she forgot her specs that day.

Aparna: Yeah!

Sanjana: And couldn’t see clearly.

Parinita: I think you’re giving her too much credit.

Aparna: Actually that would make more sense.

Sanjana: It would.

Aparna: Than a little girl not being able to tell the difference between her grandmother and a wolf – a hairy wolf.

Parinita: A grandmother who she’s presumably met before!

Sanjana: I also think the grandmother wouldn’t have needed the hunter to come to her rescue.

Aparna: I agree.

Parinita: Oh I would have loved a romance between the grandmother and this young hunter.

Sanjana: Wow! That would have been fun.

Parinita: Yeah.

Sanjana: That’s a fairy tale we should have read.

Parinita: Yeah! Maybe we should write fanfiction, you guys. Red Riding Hood fanfiction.

Sanjana: Yeah, this is totally what we should do.

Aparna: [laughs] Red Riding Hood fanfiction! We’ve found our calling.

Sanjana and Parinita laugh

Comic of Red Riding Hood standing outside the window and the wolf dressed as grandma in bed. Red Riding Hood says: ..I've left a basket of food outside for you grandma! The wolf says: F*****g COVID!

Speaking of Red Riding Hood fanfiction [we didn’t come up with this one]

Aparna: But that brings me to what I wanted to talk a little bit about was ageism in children’s literature. So does ageism refer to discrimination based on age? That’s it right? It can be against younger people as well?

Parinita: Yeah.

Aparna: So I feel like children’s literature is born out of the fact that children don’t have any agency in the real world. They aren’t taken as seriously. So it’s the most successful fighting of ageism I’ve ever seen.

Parinita: [laughs]

Aparna: But within children’s literature, the way old people are treated especially – so going back to fairy tales – how eternal youth is this big reward in a fairy tale. Or these stereotypes of these mean old witches or these old crones who are just out to get you because that is what they do. And all those stories that are so old and have very problematic treatments of the way old people are represented in that they either are evil or they need help. I understand why. Even when I’m writing, I want to quickly dispose of the parents somehow. Which is what even Roald Dahl used to say, that the adults in his story, he wants to somehow make them go away as soon as possible in the story so that he can get on with telling the story. But I don’t remember where it was that we encountered an example of children enjoying a story with an older protagonist in it.

Parinita: It was Breaking The Glass Slipper as well.

Aparna: Yeah.

Parinita: The ageism episode.

Aparna: Yeah. What was the show, I haven’t written it down.

Parinita: It was some British show or something that I’ve never heard of. For people who are super enthusiastic, they should go listen to the ageism episode and try to figure out what it is.

Aparna: [laughs]

Parinita: We just open the gates to inspiration.

Aparna: Yeah but also, you both mentioned Gangsta Granny by David Walliams. And how basically children can enjoy stories that have grown-ups because actually even grown-ups don’t know what they are doing. The image of grown-ups having a handle on life now that we’ve grown up, we know that it’s not true.

Parinita: Especially in the real world where we’re seeing now younger people who are fighting against the problems that older people and adults have left for them.

Aparna and Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: I’ve been studying children’s literature. So I did the master’s and in that I came across this really interesting idea which also makes me a little uncomfortable. Which is essentially like you said, Paru, that children’s literature is where children have agency and young people go on their own adventures and do their own things. But there is this whole strand of discussion within children’s literature scholarship that actually, it’s still adults writing these. It’s all adults who are controlling children’s literature. It’s adults writing about adult ideologies of childhood. And all three of us, we are also complicit in this because we’re all writing children’s books.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: And it’s what we think children want or children need and children would like. Which is why I started looking at fan communities in the first place for my master’s because in that, it was more young people’s response to these adult-authored texts. Not that I’m saying that we all need to give up our jobs and not write for children anymore.

Aparna: [laughs]

Parinita: But for me, it was really interesting to just think of this. I was like, oh yeah that’s true. It’s nice to make all these arguments as the people who are – who you know –

Aparna: [laughs]

Parinita: Where it’s like, “Oh yeah, we’re doing such great work, aren’t we!”

Sanjana and Aparna laugh

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: So yeah, sorry about throwing a little bit of a spanner in that. But what you were saying about just age-based discrimination and children’s literature being a part of that, I also see that in fandom. Not me specifically. But I’ve heard arguments about that. Where ageism in fandom works both ways. So it may work where young people’s interests and practices are dismissed by older adults so they’re like, oh fandom, there’s nothing to do here, please grow up. But on the other hand, it could also be because fandom is seen to be young people’s culture.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: So if you’re above a certain age, younger people may not appreciate older people coming into their space.

Aparna: Hmm.

Parinita: And might be really protective about this. So there is this podcast that I listen to called Fansplaining and they’ve had some conversations and listener letters about this topic. How this perception is that fandom is full of teenagers but actually there are many people in their 20s, 30s and 40s enjoying fannish things as well. Like the three of us – I don’t think we’re never not going to be fannish even when we’re ninety-two.

Sanjana: Yeah

Parinita: Though I’m saying that a bit optimistically that the world is going to be around till we’re ninety-two.

Sanjana: [laughs] Ninety-two directly haan!

Parinita: [laughs] Some people may have discovered fandom later in life so they’ve not grown up with it. And a show like Supernatural which has this massive fandom even now but which has been around for fifteen years. So there are two different generations of fans. In one of the Fansplaining episodes, they were talking about how now the younger people who are into Supernatural now who are teenagers, they’d be looking at Sam and Dean as father figures.

Aparna: Oh god!

Sanjana: Oh my god!

Parinita: Which I’m like oh yeah that’s true because they’re pretty old. We’re – we’re getting old as well. [laughs] But it’s also interesting if there isn’t this discrimination, that fandom then becomes a space full of fans of all different ages who are interacting with each other in ways that they may not otherwise do. Because as an adult, there are a very fixed number of spaces where you have this cross-age interaction in a way that’s not controlled.

Aparna: Yeah.

Sanjana: Yeah, absolutely. You’re right. You make a good point. Towards the end of our episode, it feels only right that we do another What If? Surprise!

Parinita: [laughs]

Aparna: [makes sound effect]

Parinita and Sanjana laugh

Aparna: Is that the same sound I made last time?

Sanjana: No, now it sounded like a spaceship.

Aparna: [makes sound effect] Oh no that’s more spaceship.

Parinita: [laughs]

Aparna: Okay never mind.

Sanjana: Going back to the uh

Parinita: This sound is growing on me.

Aparna: Yay! It’s also changing all the time so it might be a different one that’s feeling weird. I’ve forgotten what I was doing.

Sanjana: What If?! She said, bringing your attention back.

Parinita: [laughs]

Aparna: Okay.

Sanjana: Basically an older person’s perspective of entering a new world or entering an unknown world. And specifically, how about an older student going to Hogwarts? Like Parinita, you had mentioned, their letter got lost. The number of owls and things went awry and so they got their letter when they were thirty-five or forty probably.

Parinita: Or seventy-two.

Sanjana: Sure. Or seventy-two. And so they said, “Hmm, this seems like a fun thing to do now. I have magic! This explains a lot of my life! Let me go to Hogwarts.” And so they end up going to Hogwarts. And so what happens? What do you think? How different is their experience? I’m guessing very. But in what way?

Parinita: I would love to see one of the witches from Discworld whose names I have – I’m completely – Granny Weatherwax! I would love to see Granny Weatherwax in Hogwarts dealing with Snape.

Aparna: [laughs]

Parinita: She is in Gryffindor because she’s obviously in Gryffindor.

Aparna: [laughs]

Parinita: And just Snape trying to dock points off her for being … well her. And how she would deal with it. I think that would be fantastic. And I think she and McGonagall would just be the best of friends.

Aparna: [laughs]

Parinita: In my case, the younger McGonagall.

Aparna: The younger McGonagall, yeah, even I was just about to say that.

Parinita: They would just be best friends.

Aparna: [laughs] I honestly was actually thinking about it very practically. And I thought firstly, all the professors would be wholly unconcerned that there is one student in the class who’s much older than either the rest of the students or even them. Because I couldn’t think of one teacher who would change the way they teach because of –

Parinita: Umbridge.

Aparna: [laughs] No, I do not consider her … as part of the … she’s not teaching there anymore okay, keep quiet.

Sanjana: [laughs] She didn’t do much teaching, haan.

Aparna: And I also thought practically, what if someone says oh they shouldn’t be allowed to play Quidditch. Because –

Parinita: How dare you!

Sanjana: [laughs]

Aparna: Yeah, they’re taller and they’re stronger or something like they’ll be able to reach places faster because their arms are longer. I can think of some whiny Slytherin students saying this is cheating, I’m not –

Parinita: Unless the old person is in Slytherin in which case, yes! All the old people will be playing.

Aparna: Exactly. Then I also thought students would take their help to get books from the Restricted Section. That’s an age thing, right?

Sanjana: Oooh! Of course!

Parinita: Yeah!

Aparna: I thought that would be a useful thing and everyone would ask them to get –

Parinita: Oh that’s true! They can be the book supplier.

Aparna: Exactly, like a side business.

Parinita: For all the junkies like Hermione.

Sanjana: And they wouldn’t need the Invisibility Cloak anymore.

Parinita: Oh my god! Can you imagine if one of the trio was really old?

Sanjana: Yeah!

Parinita: How much more practical they would have been? I know we want to go against this trope of old people being wise but they just have more life experience.

Aparna: Yes.

Parinita: And you know how we were when we were teenagers or younger.  We were not very … I mean we know better now.

Aparna: [laughs]

Parinita: Although to be fair, Sirius was a terrible example. So Sirius would not have been a good, no he would not – none of the Marauders, I think.

Sanjana: No, none of them. [laughs]

Aparna: [laughs]

Sanjana: But you guys make some interesting points. I agree. I never thought of the Restricted Section.

Aparna: It was one of the first things that I got excited about.

Sanjana: [laughs] But I was also thinking that the probability of a letter getting lost with the way the first book went and Harry’s letters went would be …

Aparna: Do you think they do that with all students or only he was a special case?

Sanjana: Hmm!

Parinita: Letters they must send to everybody.

Aparna: No but those many letters.

Sanjana: So many!

Parinita: Oh yeah! So this other podcast I was listening to, they were talking about how Harry’s definitely not a Ravenclaw because he was so bad at just –

Aparna: Yeah!

Parinita: Grabbing a letter and just reading it. There were so many letters – so many! Everywhere!

Aparna: Yeah! He couldn’t read one! He was such an idiot.

Sanjana: Well with that Harry bashing, we come to the end of the episode. And thank you so much for listening to us. And goodbye! Until next time.

Aparna and Parinita: Bye!

[Outro music]

You’ve been listening to our episode on representations of disabilities and old age. It’s a strange time to be making a podcast – especially an episode on ableism and ageism. I’m slowly getting used to the new normal, and I hope you are too. It’s something that I initially really struggled with. I love the new sense of community this pandemic has brought about. The creative new ways in which we’re looking after each other, especially the more vulnerable members of our society, including older people as well as people with physical and mental disabilities. That’s one of the things filling me with hope in these lockdown days – that maybe, after all this is over, we’ll remember what it was like and we’ll end up working together in a better, more just world.

As one of my favourite writers Arundhati Roy recently wrote,

“Historically, pandemics have forced humans to break with the past and imagine their world anew. This one is no different. It is a portal, a gateway between one world and the next.

We can choose to walk through it, dragging the carcasses of our prejudice and hatred, our avarice, our data banks and dead ideas, our dead rivers and smoky skies behind us. Or we can walk through lightly, with little luggage, ready to imagine another world. And ready to fight for it.”

[Outro music]

You can now listen to Marginally Fannish on SpotifyAppleGoogle, or SoundCloud. I’d love to hear from you and talk to you – so any feedback, comments or critiques are very welcome! Get in touch with me on social media, leave a comment on my blog, or email me at edps@leeds.ac.uk. If you’d like to follow the podcast or the PhD project, visit my website marginallyfannish.org where you’ll find both the podcast episodes and the blog. You can also receive updates on Facebook or Instagram at Marginally Fannish or on Twitter where I’m @MarginalFannish. If you enjoyed the podcast, please share it with anyone you think will enjoy it too.

Thanks for listening! Tune in again next time for all things fannish and intersectional!

Episode 5 It’s Like She’s Not Even There: Misogyny, Masculinity, and Different Cultures

Episode Resources: 

For this episode we looked at the following texts:

Essay – Ron Weasley Vs Ron Weasley

Essay – Ginny Weasley, The Girl Who Deserved More

Essay – Strong Female Characters: Ginny Weasley

Essay – Supernatural: A History of Violence Against Women

Academic paper – Greek Mythology in English Literature Harry Potter’s Greek Connection

Academic paper – A study on usage of Greek Mythology in the Harry Potter’s series

Fan podcast – Alohomora Folkore & Mythology: A Whole New World

Fan podcast – Witch, Please Episode 9.5: Witch, Please; Live & Unruly

Fan podcast – Imaginary Worlds Heroines

Fan podcast – Women of Harry Potter Cho Chang With Kathy Tu

Fan podcast – Women of Harry Potter Molly Weasley with Dr. Chloe Angyal

Fan podcast – Witch, Please Episode 13 C Hallows and Goodbyes

Fan podcast – Harry Potter and the Sacred Text Masculinity: Weasleys’ Wizard Wheezes (Book 4, Chapter 5)

Fan podcast – Reading, Writing, Rowling Amy H. Sturgis: Fantasy, Imagination and Indigenous Futurism

Episode Transcript: 

This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity. If you would prefer the original, unedited version, please let me know!

Text on black background. Text says: fandom

[Intro music]

Welcome to Marginally Fannish, a show where we aim an intersectional lens at some of our favourite media and their fandoms.

[Intro music]

My name is Parinita Shetty and you’re listening to the fifth episode of Marginally Fannish. In this episode, Anna Raymondou and I talk about representations of gender in the Harry Potter book and movie series and in the TV show Supernatural. We discuss the impact that movie adaptations have on how characters and relationships are portrayed in popular media. We also chat about the different depictions of masculinity and misogyny in both Supernatural and Harry Potter. We discuss social conditioning and women’s internalised misogyny (Fleur Delacour deserved better!) as well as the gendered labour of the resistance (Molly Weasley also deserved better except when she was being horrible to Fleur!).

As Harry Potter fangirls, we like how the series provides us with a new mythology, folklore and culture. Anna discusses the Greek mythological inspirations in the books. We love how the Potterverse can be read through diverse cultural lenses and has room for multiple mythological interpretations. At the same time, fandom has educated us both about the problematic portrayals of other cultures in the Potterverse – specifically the anti-Semitic undertones and the appropriation of Native American beliefs. We talk about the responsibility that creators with a wide audience have in portraying marginalised cultures and learning from their missteps. Finally, Anna chats about the role of fandom in finding a supportive community and how it can make an active difference on people’s mental well-being.

Happy listening!

[Intro music]

Parinita: “Whether a story is made for pure entertainment value or made to convey a specific issue or struggle, all art contributes to people’s understanding of the universe. All media has an impact on the people who engage with it – intentional and unintentional. Scrutiny of sexist, racist, heteronormative, ageist, ableist and other biased or discriminatory themes within a work is both necessary and important, especially when the show itself fails to contextualise it. By unquestioningly accepting these story aspects, we can end up perpetuating the societal issues they represent.” This quote is from the essay “Supernatural: A History of Violence Against Women” on The Geekiary written by Exorcising Emily. It’s one of the texts that we looked at for this episode and you can find it on the project website marginallyfannish.org. For every episode on Marginally Fannish, my guests and I, we look at a whole bunch of texts which we use as discussion prompts. And all of them are up on the website accompanying the transcripts. This week I’m joined by Anna Raymondou who describes herself as an obsessive fangirl with an extended, deep and what some may consider useless knowledge about everything concerning her favourite fandoms and stories. I wish I could apply this description to myself but my memory is too atrocious to hold much room for deep knowledge really.

Anna: [laughs]

Parinita: About any of my favourite media. So this week, we’re talking about gender in Harry Potter and Supernatural and media in general. As well as depictions of different cultures in Harry Potter and media at large. So Anna, she’s twenty-two and she’s from Greece. So we both have very different contexts that we come from, looking at media that’s largely produced in the US and the UK. So Anna, do you want to start us off by talking about your own experiences with gender and culture as a fan?

Anna: I’ve always been watching stuff from the US and the UK. It was always on our TV and for many years, I thought that was the normal. And what I was experiencing was kind of different. Because you know at school we didn’t have these dances, and we didn’t have boys asking you out or doing the prom thing with the big you know like, “Do you want to be my prom date?” Or –

Parinita: [laughs] Yeah.

Anna: You know any kind of depiction. Like whatever cultural thing I saw was not very similar to mine. So when I realised that oh! Other people may not experience it, what we see on TV, it’s like [gasps].

Parinita: No, I’m the same way. Because in India, as well – I grew up in Mumbai, so it’s a pretty big city. And most of my media engagement has been American TV shows and movies and some British things. So my idea about the US and the UK has largely been shaped by the movies that I see and just exactly like you, it’s so different from my own life in India. So it almost starts to feel like we are missing out on something by not having these experiences.

Anna: Yeah!

Parinita: Whereas these experiences may not even be that common to people in the US as well. The media perpetuates such a very single experience that is the norm. Which is really interesting. That’s why I love fandom conversations because I think if we just saw these TV shows without any contexts –

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: Without hearing responses from other fans, we’d be thinking that we’re the sort of odd ducks who don’t quite fit in. Whereas in fandom, everyone is like, “No, this doesn’t really … this doesn’t represent my life either.” So you find community in fandom which is pretty cool.

Anna: Yeah and it’s great when they say that, “Oh, it’s not what you see.” Like “Not all of us drive a car at sixteen or have like [sighs] uniforms that require skirts and high heels.” Who wears high heels in school?

Parinita: Yeah.

Anna: I can barely make it out of my PJs and wear proper clothes like –

Parinita: [laughs]

Anna: I’m not saying that someone may not wear these, but I think maybe –

Parinita: But there’s room for different representations, right? Like there’s room for different –

Anna: Yeah.

Parinita: Experiences of … anything in media.

Anna: Yeah. Exactly.

Parinita: Which is why I think as I said, for me, fandom was so important. But fandom also allowed me to be okay with critiquing the media –

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: That I love like Harry Potter, for example.

Anna: Yes.

Parinita: I started reading it since I was ten and now it’s been twenty years that I’ve been a die-hard Harry Potter fan. But it’s only much later that I realised that oh wait, it’s not all perfect and it’s not all – there are things that definitely can be better.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: And I love that fandom allows you to call out the problematic elements and I don’t think that this diminishes my love of the media.

Anna: Yeah, no I completely agree. And it took me a while to be able to criticise the things I loved and obsessed about because I thought that I had to like everything that I read or I saw. And take what I’m seeing as something that’s right. And eventually I got to a point of accepting and understanding why other people are calling things out that are not okay. And I think I’m growing as a person from that experience alone you know.

Parinita: Yeah for sure. Because you’re still twenty-two and you seem much more with it than I was when I was twenty-two. Because it’s only been very recently – I’ve been in fandom more or less since I was thirteen. But earlier it was much more the squee part of fandom which is like I’m excited about everything, I want to only hear good things. Whereas now I love the critical commentary. I love the people who come together, who sort of expand the texts and expand my mind a little bit more.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: Just by inserting their own voices and perspectives. Which is one of my favourite things.

Anna: I agree completely. As long as everyone is respectful with each other, it can bring so much – like a different light into your whole perspective about what you’ve grown to love. And I think it broadens your mind in a way.

Parinita: Yeah, for sure. And what we were talking about, about the cultural elements as well, coming from Greece and India.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: For me it’s this whole process of decolonising my mind. Because when I’ve grown up, we read a lot of British literature, so children’s books. And now I watch a lot of American TV shows and movies. And that really makes me think about my own country in a different way. Whereas now these conversations, they’re making me see the problematic bits of Western media and culture as well. It helps me see both the West and India in a different way, if that makes sense.

Anna: Yeah, totally. I agree.

Parinita: So I know you had some thoughts about how the movie adaptations of the Harry Potter series really butchered some characters and misrepresented others –

Anna: [sighs]

Parinita: Through problematic portrayals?

Anna: Um hmm. I have some very strong thoughts on that.

Parinita: [laughs]

Anna: And I’m glad you agreed with me because I love the Harry Potter movies. It’s one of my favourite movie series and I will never stop watching it and re-watching and re-watching.

Parinita: [laughs]

Anna: But oh my god the characters! You miss out so much only by the story because there’s so many books and there’s so many story-lines you cannot convey in a two-hour movie. So you’re like okay maybe they’ll do justice to the characters if not the story. And then you have someone like Ginny Weasley and [sighs] Ginny Weasley in the books is amazing. And she’s such a fierce and strong young woman. And then in the movies, it’s like she’s not even there. And I’m not saying it for the actress or anything because I don’t think it’s her fault.

Parinita: No absolutely. You know I think it’s like in one of the Witch, Please episodes that we listened to

Anna: Um hmm

Parinita: They said that it’s a political choice on how you choose to portray characters in movie adaptations. And they also mentioned Ginny Weasley because like you said that she’s portrayed to be just a romantic interest of Harry Potter in the movies. Which, in the books, she is more her own person. Even though we see her as, just like we see everything else, through Harry’s perspective.

Anna: Um hmm

Parinita: Ginny does seem to be much more independent and has her own life and has her own convictions and she does her own thing. Which is why I wonder – I know in fandom, there are some really strong reactions either for or against Ginny.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: And I wonder if this is to do with whether the movies have influenced their beliefs or the books have influenced their beliefs.

Anna: Yeah, I think it’s a bit of both. Because I watched the movies first and then I read the books. Not all of the movies. But I watched the first two I think, or three, before I started reading the books.

Parinita: Yeah.

Anna: And I didn’t instantly connect who Ginny was because she was so … I’m not going to say a mediocre character, but she was not given the time to shine that she did eventually in the books. And you said that they use her as a romantic interest in the movies. But I think that didn’t even work well.

Parinita: Yeah.

Anna: You barely see her after The Chamber of Secrets. And suddenly in the sixth movie, Harry finds himself liking her. And that didn’t escalate in any way correctly. You know?

Parinita: Yeah because we don’t see her grow as a person. We see her obviously in Chamber of Secrets where she undergoes this really traumatic experience. But even that we’re not shown in as much detail as the books.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: But then we don’t see how she gets over that trauma and how she stands up to her brothers’ teasing and bullying and goes along with it. And the pranks that she plays and all the dating that she does as well. She’s not just hung up on Harry forever. She’s doing these other things. As well as she stands up to Ron’s slut-shaming of her in Half-Blood Prince which was born out of his own insecurities. So she’s –

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: She’s very secure in her own person. She doesn’t need – she’s not just Harry’s crutch.

Anna: I think that one thing that the movies are missing out is that sure you cannot add many things and obviously the story is about Harry. But Ginny is a part of his friend group. She’s his best friend’s sister. So Harry sees her often, he goes to the Weasley house. And why would you take out something so easily adapted. Just have her be around. Make her more visible. Why are you burying her like that? And I think that one of the reasons why they did it is also because they wanted to have one strong female character which was Hermione.

Parinita: Yeah.

Anna: And for some reason they cannot have more room for another great woman you know.

Parinita: Absolutely. There’s just room for one, right? And yeah, one of the essays that we read as well, it said how a lot of Ron’s lines were given to Hermione which diminished Ron’s character as well in the movies. Which reminded me of this other Witch, Please episode that I’d listened to which talked about how in the Chamber of Secrets, Hermione had also received some of Dumbledore’s lines. And it almost seems to portray Hermione as this perfect can-do-no-wrong aspirational character in the movies that you know she’s someone that we should all want to be. Which I also think is a little bit of a disservice because I like Hermione’s flaws and her –

Anna: Hmm.

Parinita: Her authenticity. I would like room for all kinds of representations of female characters. Not just we are only allowed one.

Anna: Yeah. And I think that they tried to put all the great stuff – not great, like the funny quotes or the ideas that someone had and put them on Hermione to make her shine. But the good thing is that even through her flaws, she was a great character in the books.

Parinita: Absolutely.

Anna: So why did they feel the need to add extra stuff when she was already a great, empowered woman in the Harry Potter world. And why did you feel the need to take from someone else? Like okay Dumbledore, he was amazing anyway; he was smart, he was witty and he had great quotes anyway so it’s not like many things were taken away from him. But Ron! I think that the movies – I love Ron anyway but I think the movies butchered him as well. Like many people don’t like movie Ron. And when I say he’s one of my favourite characters and they ask me why, I’m like he has done so many great things in the books. And he’s such a loyal friend. Yeah sure, he has his flaws. But he had a story-line, a character arc, through the books that you do not see in the movies. It’s actually the opposite. He almost goes from a great friend to an awful friend in the movies.

Parinita: Yeah.

Anna: Which is not who he really was. And all that just so you can make Hermione even greater than she already is.

Parinita: Yeah. And I think this strive to perfection is so unnecessary because it’s not like we’re going to – well maybe some people might dislike Hermione because of one flaw. But then those kind of people are probably not liking Hermione for – they just like her for very superficial reasons anyway. But otherwise I mean I think that’s what media needs more of. And in a movie like Harry Potter which has such a wide reach, having more complex and nuanced characters – there was such an opportunity for that and it was really missed unfortunately.

Anna: Yeah, I agree. It would have been great if they could use every single thing from the books but you know if you have so much information to work from, why not put a little more effort to the other characters? Because yeah, Harry is your hero but no story is great with only one character, one hero. You know the rest of the characters –

Parinita: Oh no! Yeah I for sure think that there are –

Anna: [laughs]

Parinita: Like Harry was great and all but no. He would be nowhere – first of all, without Hermione. He would be nowhere without Hermione.

Anna: Yeah!

Parinita: But also just his friendships. And adults as well as young people – I don’t think anything would have been possible without his friendships. And also I think one of the essays mentioned, the female friendships have been completely erased in the movies as well. Like between Ginny and Hermione and Luna and Ginny.

Anna: Yeah.

Parinita: There’s no really examples of those.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: So we’ve largely talked about the female characters in Harry Potter. What about the ways in which masculinity is represented, not just in Harry Potter but also in Supernatural. You did mention that you had good things to say about how men’s emotions are showed in Supernatural.

Anna: I think Supernatural is a very masculine show in the way that you know you have these dudes who drink beer, they will listen to rock music, and they have a great car and they kick ass. And I love that. But it’s not very often that you see men expressing their feelings. And sure, they struggle a lot and they hide a lot of things from each other. But there has been, in my opinion, many great moments that they have let themselves be truthful and vulnerable and share what they feel.

Parinita: Hmm.

Anna: And I think that’s something you don’t really see. And, of course, it’s a show with fifteen seasons. So you do have that kind of time to see that evolving. But it is something that is present in the first seasons as well. And I don’t know, it surprised me a lot when I first watched it. It still does.

Parinita: No, you’re so right because – so I’ve been watching Supernatural since I was sixteen so it’s been with me for a really long part of my life. I haven’t watched the last two seasons. But it’s been something that I’ve been a fan of for a very long time. But I didn’t think about just the emotional life that we see of Sam and Dean because it’s just something … I don’t know. That’s why again, fandom for me is just helpful for me to be able to articulate these things that maybe I knew about in the back of my head or thought about vaguely. But it’s something that gives me the vocabulary to actually actively talk about. Which is, for me, very helpful. So when I was doing my master’s degree, I also studied fan communities. And I studied Harry Potter and Percy Jackson – two Facebook fan pages. And I’d encountered this video called “The Fantastic Masculinity of Newt Scamander”.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: From the Fantastic Beasts movie. And it subjected Newt to this really detailed analysis which concluded that Newt is emotional and empathetic and he offers this positive representation of masculinity in mainstream culture which, like you said, is otherwise populated with really brash and violent fantasy heroes.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: So Supernatural is perhaps one example and Newt as well because you see a very specific kind of hero in most of the media that we consume. So it’s not just with women’s representations, it’s with men’s representations as well. There’s just one way to be a man, I guess. Or a heroic figure.

Anna: Yeah. I agree. And I love Newt. He’s a great character. And as you said, he’s empathetic and I think his love of animals is something that’s helped him to be that. But we shouldn’t have to be surprised when movies and TV series make men seem vulnerable.

Parinita: No, absolutely. Even with women’s representations, right? Like I watched Wonder Woman and I was in tears because I was – that was I think the first time I’d seen a movie like that which centred women’s experiences. It wasn’t male gazey and it was just placing us in the centre in a way that makes you feel so empowered.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: And like I was telling my friends in a previous episode, this is what men feel like all the time!

Anna: I know! Didn’t you feel like you wanted to get a lasso and try to grab someone from the street?

Parinita: Absolutely!

Anna: [laughs]

Parinita: It makes you feel so emotional. It shouldn’t be something that needs to be commented on but unfortunately it is because there’s such a dearth of these characters and these stories that place people who’ve – including women – who’ve been on the margins of mainstream media and culture for so long.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: I do see things getting better now so I’m glad that diversity, even if it’s for really commercial reasons, they just want money, I’m fine with that. If it starts that way and then becomes because they actually want diversity and value diversity –

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: That’s totally okay for me. So one of the other things that we listened to, the Harry Potter and the Sacred Text episode on masculinity, that was really interesting because it analysed the Weasleys and how – because it’s like what seven brothers? Is it seven brothers?

Anna: It’s six brothers and one sister.

Parinita: Oh six brothers! Yeah see the memory, it’s just like one thing goes in from one side of the brain and leaks out of the other.

Anna: [laughs] I mean there’s many kids okay like you can forget.

Parinita: Yeah I can’t keep a track of all of them! They come, they go. But they talked about the different ways in which the Weasley boys, they signaled their masculinity. And Bill and Charlie they’re pretty traditionally masculine. So adventurers and treasure hunters and dragon riders and whatever. And Fred and George, they pointed out how they accrue social power through humour and then obviously they have their business as well. So they’re really good businessmen or business wizards whatever. And Percy achieves political status and power. And Ron – so I mean that’s what made me start thinking that yeah Ron is super insecure in the first book when we see in the Mirror of Erised

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: He wants to be better than his brothers and he wants to you know outshine all of them. Which is understandable. But he takes this out on the women in his life. He takes this out on Hermione, he takes this out on Ginny.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: When Ginny points out that he’s only jealous of her and Hermione because he’s never had any sort of romantic or sexual experience. And out of revenge or whatever, he starts dating Lavender as well who he doesn’t really seem to like too much.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: And that’s really unfair on Lavender too. Like she’s just having a relationship whereas he’s like having a revenge relationship or what? I don’t know.

Anna: Yeah it’s sad to think. Because on the one hand you want to – I feel bad for Ron because he has this legacy of brothers before him; that the two of them are doing their thing away from home and they are, as you said, like the traditional masculine types that have dragons and they work in banks and one of them scored the pretty girl. And then you have Percy who is like the how do we call it um the – the Prefect?

Parinita: Um hmm.

Anna: Yeah and he’s very smart and he has a girlfriend. And then you have Fred and George who are very popular and they do all these pranks. So there is a lot of weight on him because he’s not the greatest student, he’s not the prankster or anything. And he’s like before his sister, who apparently Molly really wanted a daughter. So then she went full on on Ginny and everything. So I understand. But then again, you have to work on your problems and yourself and you cannot – just because you feel bad, it doesn’t mean you have to take it out on others.

Parinita: I mean to be fair, he was also a teenage boy. I think I was a pretty – I mean I was not as terrible a teenager, but then again, I didn’t have –

Anna: Yeah.

Parinita: Voldemort threatening to take over the wizarding world.

Anna: True.

Parinita: Although now you see fascism everywhere so I guess teenagers have more to deal with than we did.

Anna: True!

Parinita: Yeah but it’s also how you see in just feminist discourse that the patriarchy harms men as well. It’s not just women.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: Obviously women are much more affected. But Ron’s insecurity seems to stem from just this singular narrative of what makes a successful and popular man. Like having a girlfriend and being successful at sports –

Anna: Um hmm

Parinita: And being successful at school. Whereas there are more ways to be successful and I mean there’s no one right way to be a man. Unless you’re terrible in which case, yeah that’s the wrong way to be a man!

Anna: [laughs]

Parinita: But you know to be a good man, you don’t need to … yeah there just need to be more role models which, in the magical world, in the real world, unfortunately there’s totally a lack of.

Anna: Yeah. But I think what’s a great thing concerning Ron is that he had people who stood up to him. Like Ginny when, as you said he had an attitude about her going out with boys and everything. And she set him straight. And Hermione, when he was, “Oh you’re a girl!” She was like “Yeah thanks for noticing. Goodbye now, I already have a date.”

Parinita: Um hmm.

Anna: I think that having someone – and obviously women because he had a few issues about them – stand up and not let that kind of behaviour go on further, I think it’s very beneficial and I think that’s why eventually his relationship with Ginny got better when she dated Harry because he was like, “Okay, you’re dating my best friend. But you’re free to do whatever because you know I trust you.” And I think that wouldn’t happen if Ginny hadn’t put her foot down and was like, “I’ll do what I want and you have to deal with it.”

Parinita: You’re so right! I wonder because you see Ron’s behaviour in this fictional world, you see it replicated in the real world now. I wonder if you know just with these internet forums and things,

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: Where groups of men congregate. So I just wonder if Ginny and Hermione hadn’t been there, would Ron have been like a wizarding incel? Would he have been all like, “I hate all women because I get no girlfriends” and “Women are the worst!” and “Down with women!”

Anna: I mean dude with that kind of behaviour, of course you’re not going to get any women.

Parinita: Yeah, I’m glad well whatever his problematic misogynistic incel-adjacent behaviour, he grew out of.

Anna: Yeah.

Parinita: And he grew up. So that’s good. But there are other examples of misogyny in the Harry Potter series as well which again, isn’t something that I had considered myself when I read the series when I was younger.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: I’m slowly reading the books again and watching the movies again. And I wonder if it’ll be more noticeable to me now because I think about these things in my real world. So I wonder if I’ll notice it more in the fictional world. But currently it’s all the fan podcasts that I’ve been listening to which have pointed this out. So, of course Ron and the misogyny towards Ginny but then also Ginny, Hermione and Molly’s attitude against Fleur. And this is something because you read it from this limited Harry Potter perspective, I was like oh yeah Fleur is this silly little girl who you know whatever. But now when you look back at it, she is obviously this really smart, capable witch. Because she went into the Triwizard Tournament and she did all these cool things. And she’s also you know she’s kind and loyal. Like she sticks with Bill even though his family is horrible to her.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: And she looks after Harry and the rest when they come into her cottage and just barge in.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: I think in the Witch, Please episode, was it, that they pointed out the gendered labour of the resistance where she’s relegated to the kitchen and making casseroles for the resistance rather than –

Anna: Yeah.

Parinita: You know using her skills and capabilities and being in the front-line of Dumbledore’s Army [I meant Order of the Phoenix].

Screenshot of Tumblr post by siriusblaque. Text says: fleur delacour is so important i can't even put it into words badass girl whose "most previous" was her sister, who despite what anyone might think of her (cough molly cough ron cough hermione cough) looks past any aesthetic unpleasantries because she is completely and irrevocably in love with bill, who willingly risks her life for harry (the seven harrys, anyone???), who manages to create a spot of brightness in the middle of war (wedding!!!), who is feminine and badass at the same time, who opens her home to an entitled goblin and multiple refugees/runaways, who doesn't sacrifice one bit of her integrity or character despite the looming threat of war

A fan text I encountered while researching my master’s dissertation

Anna: Um hmm I agree. Well about the first things you said, about Ginny and Hermione and Mrs. Weasley I didn’t think of it at first but I never liked how they treated Fleur in the books.

Parinita: Hmm.

Anna: But I think that they all got so defensive because obviously she was so beautiful and Harry kind of liked her and Ron was very into her for some time. So everyone started getting protective about their people. Ginny, I think, because her brother was so – her brothers – with Bill and Ron watching her and saying oh how beautiful she was. And I think Hermione maybe with Ron because perhaps something was going on. And Mrs. Weasley because she’s like, “Oh that’s my son, where is she going to take him? And where did she come from?” And everything. So I think part of that was because they started feeling very protective over their people and their relationships they had with them. But –

Parinita: Yeah.

Anna: When in the books, when she stayed with Bill even though his face was like you know because of that fight and Fenrir I think it was – that werewolf –

Parinita: Um hmm.

Anna: Scratched his face and she’s like, “He’s beautiful to me and I’m not leaving his side whatever you say.” I think that was such a beautiful like “in your face!” moment for Mrs. Weasley and Ginny and Hermione because I think they believed she was very superficial even – because she was a bit of a snob but that was just her personality. Like one of her personality traits–

Parinita: And also she was this person who was in a new country

Anna: Yeah.

Parinita: And she’s in this house and family where everyone else seems to be treating her pretty poorly. So I might have been a bit of a snob in her position as well. I’m like yeah if you don’t take me seriously. And I think you make a very good point because when this happens, I think Hermione, Ginny and Mrs. Weasley, they do soften up to her.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: But there’s also so much to unpack just about our own social conditioning and how we have misogynistic tendencies as well against other women. Just pitting women in competition with each other because you’re beautiful or whatever and you know you’re jealous or you’re competitive about the other people. So yeah there’s more I think to unpack there. But I’m glad again that she was – although she was still stuck in the kitchen.

Anna: Yeah.

Parinita: But then, Mrs. Weasley has been stuck in the kitchen through all seven books of the series.

Anna: I know. I’m so conflicted about Mrs. Weasley because I think her like maternal instincts and everything was something that really helped Harry because he never had something like that.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Anna: So I’m glad that he found someone that would take care of him in the way a mother does – make him food and ask him if he’s okay, if he’s hungry, tell him to wash behind your ear and don’t forget something.

Parinita: [laughs]

Anna: You know that’s a thing I never heard that in real life. I’ve only read that in books.

Parinita: Me neither. And it has never made me want to wash behind my ears. I’m just like oh this is a thing fictional characters don’t seem to do or people in the West don’t seem to want to do.

Anna: [laughs] I know! But then you know she’s clearly a very talented witch because first of all, she can handle five children so that makes her a hero already in my eyes.

Parinita: [laughs] Absolutely.

Anna: And later on she has that amazing scene. I cried when I watched that in the movies. “Not my daughter, you bitch!” was one of the greatest lines in the book and I’m so glad they made it in the movies. And I was like if that’s what happens when she’s angry right now because one of her children were in danger, like all of her children were but you know with Ginny. Like imagine what else she could have done or how useful she could have been in a battle and not stuck behind making I don’t know sausages and whatever she was making all the time.

Parinita: But even if she didn’t want to be a part of the battle, for whatever reason,

Anna: Um hmm

Parinita: I think that her duties, whatever she did, was still very important in the resistance. I think it was the Women of Harry Potter Molly Weasley episode that pointed it out.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: That she provides both food-based nourishment so she’s literally cooking for the resistance.

Anna: Yeah.

Parinita: And she also provides mental and emotional nourishment for both the young people and for the adults. And her labour of nourishing the resistance in such different ways is completely overlooked. Her worries are dismissed. Her hobbies are dismissed as well. She likes reading Witch Weekly, she likes listening to Celestina Warbeck I think is the name?

Anna: Yes.

Parinita: I’m very confident that this is the name but I always have a misplaced sense of confidence.

Anna: Yeah I think – I think that’s it.

Parinita: Yeah and they make fun of her worries and they make fun of her being snappy about just because her stress-born snappiness. And I feel like she deserves so much more respect because it’s so similar in the real world, right? Like women in that position are just taken for granted. And –

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: Even in the resistance, there are different kinds of activism. It’s not just – like in India, currently, we have protests going on which the Coronavirus has sort of put a halt to at the moment. And there’s this group of women – of Muslim women and children who have congregated at this place in Delhi called Shaheen Bagh. And they are basically there just to hold the government to account. They’ve just been sitting there I think for two months. And they’ve been cooking there and having events and things. And these are women from really deprived backgrounds as well.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: It’s not like they are these elite activists who can take the time off work or whatever. But they’re just like if we don’t do this, nobody’s going to do this. And fortunately in India, they have inspired the entire country and there has been more such activism by deprived Muslim women and children in different parts of the country. But yeah I think that is a more stark example. But there are so many more examples like this just in the real world but whose work is just dismissed.

Anna: Yeah and that’s so sad because as you said, you can choose not to go to the battle-front or whatever like Mrs. Weasley stayed back. But don’t dismiss her and not appreciate what she does just because it’s something that she will do every day for you because she’s your mum or your wife or whoever. Like say thank you and don’t be – because I cannot remember like precise examples right now but there has been times you know Ron or someone will be snappy towards Mrs. Weasley because she’s being herself and she is watching out for her kids. They’re like, “Oh we have more important things to do.” Yeah right. If you don’t eat, I’d like to see you try do any of those things you know.

Parinita: I mean you literally had a tantrum in the forest and then left Harry and Hermione because you were hungry, because you’d gotten used to your mother’s really good food and taken it for granted! I know we spoke about Harry Potter a lot but I also wanted to make sure that we touched on the more – much more overt misogyny in Supernatural.

Anna: Oh my god.

Parinita: Which almost seems to act as this structural framework of the show much more than it is in Harry Potter. Because like I said, I’ve been watching it for a very long time. But I’d largely blocked out the uncomfortable history of violence against women. Maybe because of my bad memory – probably because of my bad memory.

Anna: [laughs]

Parinita: But you know that essay that we read, “Supernatural: A History of Violence Against Women”. Oh my god it made me so uncomfortable.

Anna: I know!

Parinita: But in a really good way. Just because it laid out all the different examples of the way that it had treated its female characters.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: And there aren’t that many female characters who survive anyway. But yeah the way that they had been treated, and the way that they had been insulted in a very gendered way.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: Yeah it was really uncomfortable.

Anna: I know. It makes me so angry because when I watched Supernatural, it was like a year ago I started. And I binged it like all the way through to now. And it was so much information at once that I didn’t have time to like analyse what I was seeing properly.

Parinita: Yeah.

Anna: Then I did a re-watch like a month or so later. And usually I don’t analyse things and movies and TV series, apart from Harry Potter because that’s the one thing that I know so much about and because it has the books. But usually I don’t analyse stuff very much. But then I started seeing this pattern of how women were treated. I’m not saying that it’s that they died in the show, because everyone dies. The main characters have died like a thousand times. So that’s not my issue. It’s the way they die every time. Spoilers for anyone who hasn’t caught up, I’m sorry, but you know Eileen [sighs] Eileen is one of my favourite characters and the way she was killed in … I don’t remember was season twelve or yeah – yeah season twelve. It was so brutal and so awful because she’s deaf – a deaf hunter. And by mistake, she kills someone. And they send a hellhound after her. A hellhound is like a dog from hell that you cannot see, you can only hear. And what you send something that cannot be seen to a deaf woman who cannot hear it to like take her apart. And it was like a ten second death scene. You didn’t even see it. That made me so angry. Or with Charlie like the second favourite character

Parinita: Yeah.

Anna: Who got a death in a freaking bathtub full of blood. You didn’t even see her fight. Like she was so amazing. She survived at Oz with Dorothy and whoever it was. She killed so many people, she was so skillful. And then suddenly she dies in a bathtub and we didn’t even see her fight! And what for?! There was no reason for her to die. Absolutely no reason.

Parinita: Yeah and it’s like what that essay pointed out. That it’s the way in which violence against women is used to just further the stories of male characters. It’s almost like that’s what they’ve been created for.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: Which is similar to arguments about characters of colour which are killed off for white characters and queer characters versus cisgender and heterosexual characters as well as characters with disabilities versus non-disabled characters. Where everybody who seems to be on the margin is just this sort of prop to be there just to be discarded when you want to heighten emotions. And there are even examples of this in Harry Potter as well. Which again, something I hadn’t considered but Witch, Please a podcast that I love and that everyone should go listen to.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: They spoke about Ariana Dumbledore, the implied violence against her. So the Muggle children, the Muggle boys, they were violent towards her when she was younger. But there was also this implied sexual connotation to that which I hadn’t picked up on and I want to now go back and re-read that extract.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: But that is what caused Dumbledore to turn against Grindelwald. Not that exactly, but that sort of led to that huge thing.

Anna: Yeah.

Parinita: To make Dumbledore – to give him this tragic backstory. And then there’s Helena Ravenclaw who is murdered by the Bloody Baron because she refused to date him? Like I don’t know. And then she’s forced to haunt this castle with him like she’s not even rid of him in death. With Lily Potter and Snape as well.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: Like that’s really troubling.

Anna: [sighs] I never liked Snape even after his arc. I’m like oh okay you were a great spy but I still didn’t like him and I don’t understand how people forgive him so easily because he was a Death Eater and he believed in everything that Voldemort or everyone was on about. And he had no problem admitting it. And I think that Lily felt she had to be his friend because you know he was the one she met back then when she didn’t know exactly what was going on and he helped her. But like he made some awful choices. And he treated her so badly. And that’s one of the things that I think is very common that when someone is  say bullying you, they’re like, “Oh my god, he likes you, that’s why he’s mean to you.” So what kind of excuse is that? Like oh okay I’m going to leave this person and let him be awful to me because he likes me? So I think that that was thing that I noticed with Snape and with Lily that because he liked her, he bullied her.

Parinita: So I love the character of Snape just because the way that the character is created has so many complexities and so many flaws and just like the character arc, I love it.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: But the character of Snape that is his interactions and his relationships, he’s a pretty shitty character.

Anna: Yeah.

Parinita: And you know it’s like with Lily, it’s not her job to reform him. Like if he can’t work on himself and be better there’s no reason for her to put up with it. So in one of the essays that we read about Ginny Weasley, one of the comments, somebody had said that they were upset with Ginny because she didn’t show remorse for what she had done. And the example that they presented was that when Ron was going through a really tough time, Ginny hadn’t supported him and hadn’t been nice to him. And I was like uh it is not Ginny’s job to be nice to her brother who is being a bit of an asshole. So I’m glad Lily and Ginny stood up to these terrible, terrible men.

Anna: Um hmm, I agree. And I think it’s a refreshing thing to see that eventually – even though she tried, you know she didn’t let’s say abandon her friend instantly with the first difficult thing between them – she stood up for herself after he called her a Mudblood. I think she cut ties with him if I remember correctly

Parinita: Yeah and because he wouldn’t give up his Death Eater friends and Death Eater beliefs.

Anna: Yeah.

Parinita: So if she is the only exceptional – if he hates all that she stands for but he only likes her because she is the exception to the rule –

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: Why should she put up with it? This is just like in real life where you know in terms of racism, in terms of homophobia whatever. You need to respect the entire community, you can’t just respect one person from that community. And I think these conversations are so important especially because of the huge role that popular media plays in influencing our attitudes and behaviours. As some people pointed out in the Alohomora podcast as well as some of the other texts that we read, Harry Potter as well as other media – but Harry Potter especially provides this new form of mythology and folklore.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: Which people are using to make sense of the world.

Anna: Yeah.

Parinita: I was just thinking of it in terms of protests that we’ve seen. So I mentioned the protests happening in India. But also protests that are happening in the US as well as some of the climate crisis protests where you see a lot of Harry Potter themed signs there which I love.

Anna: Um hmm.

Photo of a teenager holding a protest sign which reads: We grew up on Harry Potter, the Hunger Games, Marvel and Star Wars. Of course w'ere fighting back.

A photo from the March For Our Lives protest in the US

Photo of a young girl holding up a protest sign which reads: When Voldemort is President we need a nation of Hermiones

A photo from the Women’s March in the US

Parinita: Which I know a lot of people make fun of because they’re like, “Oh this is not the Harry Potter world, it’s the real world.” But in terms of religion, for example.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: People use religious texts so much to try and figure out the real world; to draw parallels between the religious texts and the real world.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: And with Harry Potter, I think a lot of people do the same. Because it was such a powerful part of many people’s childhoods or adulthoods and it’s just something that – you use stories that play a huge role in your life. And you use them to make sense of everything else in your life. That’s definitely something that I do. And I see that a lot in my generation and other generations have done that as well.

Anna: Um hmm. And I’ve read somewhere that there was a study of some sort that said that people who read Harry Potter are usually more accepting and they will stand up to things they believe are unfair. And I think that’s a great thing that just proves the point. When you see signs like, “Dumbledore would never let that happen” or something like that. It’s like yeah, these books and not just Harry Potter but everything that you can get that you know broadens your horizon, doesn’t get you stuck in a specific mindset. It’s wonderful and great to see that from such a small thing like a kids’ book that you – because many people would call it that because it has magic and it’s not in the real world and apparently we can never read anything else because it’s magical. I don’t know but –

Photo from a protest highlighting a sign which reads: Dumbledore wouldn't let this happen

Another fan text I encountered while researching my master’s dissertation

Parinita: [laughs] Well, as someone who thinks both children’s literature and fantasy are very, very important, I would have to disagree with all these people.

Anna: Yeah, thank you!

Parinita: [laughs] Yeah. I know a lot of people talked about how Harry Potter has created its own mythology and rituals.

Anna: Um hmm

Parinita: Not only in the fictional world but also in the real world. But you pointed out that Harry Potter has drawn a lot of inspiration from Greek mythology as well.

Anna: Um hmm. Yeah that was one of the first things that made me go like oh wow, I recognise that thing. Because there are many names from Greek mythology or the constellations that are – people are named after that in the Harry Potter world. And you know that’s not something you see. I certainly don’t see that very often in any kind of American or British – English text. That’s not something you see very often. And I was very surprised because they were like hidden gems and everything that that were very interesting. I think there’s a constellation that’s called Orion. I’m not sure if I’m saying that correctly.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Anna: And one of the stars in the constellation is called Draco. So I think – don’t one hundred per cent quote me on that – I’m going to check it. But –

Parinita: No, I know there is a constellation [I meant star] named Draco. I don’t know which belt it lies in. But yeah. Sirius as well is a constellation [I meant star again]. The dog star.

Anna: Oh! I think that’s the – yeah, you’re right. So Orion is a constellation and Sirius is a star in this constellation. And Sirius’s dad was named Orion.

Parinita: Hmm.

Anna: So like Sirius is part of this … you know how it goes.

Parinita: Yeah.

Anna: And there is so many things like that. Mandragora – mandrakes and the sphinx and the –

Parinita: Yeah the creatures like unicorns, griffins, the centaurs, the phoenix as well.

Anna: Yeah.

Parinita: Yeah. And also the name I think Sybil Trelawney whose ancestor was Cassandra Trelawney?

Anna: Cassandra.

Parinita: Yeah.

Anna: Yeah, yeah, yeah. She was a very powerful witch. She wasn’t a witch – wait. I think that was … oh she was meant to be –

Parinita: A seer? Like a prophet? She gave prophecies?

Anna: Yeah well … hmm … I think I may … no I think I’m like ninety per cent sure. She was a woman who was cursed by a god to have visions of things but people would never believe her.

Parinita: Yeah.

Anna: And she was in Troy – the Trojan War something. She was ugh I should know that! That’s so embarrassing.

Parinita: No, you know this happens with me with Indian mythology as well. Just because I seem to know more about like Christian mythology – Christian beliefs and Christian things more because that’s such a part of Western media. And I also went to a Catholic school so it’s something that I grew up with. But yeah this happens to me all the time. I’m like, “I don’t know details about my own mythology!”

Anna: Oh yes, she was – she was the daughter of the queen of Troy. Yeah.

Parinita: Ah right.

Anna: And she was sister to Paris, yeah. Yeah, yeah I knew that, okay. I knew that.

Parinita: And there’s Fluffy as well who is the –

Anna: Yeah Cerberus!

Parinita: The dog that guards the gates to hell. But what I also found interesting. So in one of the papers that we read, she compared the mythology of the Hogwarts founders to Greek gods and goddesses as well as houses being like the god and goddess cults of ancient Greek society. Whereas me and my friends, we were talking about how to us, the four house systems remind us of the Hindu caste system. Which is you know there’s like different segregation that happens based on birth and you are – once you’re in that particular caste, you can’t intermingle with other castes. Like traditionally. And you can only stick to the people in that community and you can do the same kind of job and you can’t be more than what your birth entailed.

Anna: Oh okay.

Parinita: So what I found really interesting is that the Harry Potter world is so full of potential to be read from multiple mythological lenses. If I read it through Hindu mythology or Indian mythology whereas if you read it from Greek mythology, we could still come up with many different things and they would be both valid because there’s room for multiple interpretations. Just like in fandom. Which I thought was pretty cool. So, some of the fan podcasts, I don’t know if you’ve thought about this – I hadn’t. Just because the context is so Western. But some of the fan podcasts did point out the more problematic representations of different cultures in the Potterverse.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: So specifically, they spoke about goblins and how the goblins – like there’s a lack of Jewish characters in the Harry Potter books. I think there’s one – Anthony Goldstein. Which the Witch, Please episode pointed out. They’re both Jewish co-hosts in Witch, Please so they look at it through a Jewish lens. And they think that the goblins are a really anti-Semitic representation of what Orthodox Jewish people are supposed to be. And this is not something that I thought of growing up in India because we don’t have these cultural contexts that we think about.

Anna: Yeah, same here.

Parinita: Yeah. And centaurs as well. So the other episode that we listened to which talked about just indigenous people in the US, so like Native American cultures and you know their beliefs. Witch, Please also codes centaurs as indigenous people – all the tropes and stereotypes that are used about centaurs, which I’ll link to in the transcript – the episode. But I found that really interesting because it’s so contextual. Like you know the things that are written in a context that is not yours, you don’t know these things. But then just hearing discussions of things from people within those contexts, it’s just like this informal school on the internet. Which I love.

Anna: Yeah. Um hmm I agree because for many years, I didn’t even know what anti-Semitic means because I’m sure it happens here but that’s not something I ever encountered or even discussed with anyone. So when you mentioned and when I listened to the podcast and you know through many things that I’ve read you know through the years I was so shocked. I’m like that’s so – that’s offensive!

Parinita: Yeah! No, absolutely. And me too! I had not thought of this. I only discovered this within the last couple of years, I think. You know all these stereotypes that apparently people here – because now I’m currently in the UK. So there are apparently a lot of stereotypes about Jewish people.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: But for me, I don’t even know what the stereotypes are. Because it’s not something that I’ve ever come across in India. So you know when there is something that people say is anti-Semitic because it perpetuates these stereotypes, I’m like, “Oh! I didn’t even know this was a stereotype about Jewish people!” Like I would have never made that connection.

Anna: Yeah. I only know one stereotype about them like with the money and something but I don’t even know the stereotype. It’s something I’ve heard maybe once or twice or I’ve seen on TV or something. And that blew my mind away. I was like oh my god – how is that even allowed to be a thing?! Like I don’t –

Parinita: That’s the thing. I think with J. K. Rowling, as you said, you know about the study that I’ve read as well, reading Harry Potter makes people like according to the study, more empathetic and respectful of different experiences. But I think that’s what the readers have taken from it. And what some of the readers have taken from it. Because now obviously fans are also calling out J. K. Rowling –

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: For being unfair and unjust. Like you said, you know, fans stand up to injustice. The most recent ones of course have been about transphobia.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: But before that, on Pottermore, where she’d written about magic in North America. And the Reading, Writing, Rowling episode that we heard about “Fantasy, Imagination and Indigenous Futurism”.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: And that episode was so good because it was such a good encapsulation of all the arguments against Native appropriation that J. K. Rowling has done and she’s never apologized for it. She’s never even addressed the critiques. Because you would think when you have that much power and that much influence –

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: You do acknowledge your mistakes. Because obviously everybody makes mistakes. I think she can hire a research assistant. She has enough money to hire a research assistant and do the work for her.

Anna: Yeah.

Parinita: But she obviously just wants to write it all herself. But then she doesn’t put in the work, she doesn’t research the cultures that she’s talking about.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: So she just has this token diversity – like she’ll just have this mention of a diverse community or a diverse person but not actually go in-depth about anything. And anything that she does include is stereotypical. And is offensive.

Anna: Um hmm I agree. I think she used to put more work when – I’m not going to say that the fame got to her head, but maybe it did. What’s the quote? “With great power comes great responsibility.”

Parinita: [laughs]

Anna: Is that from Spider-man?

Parinita: Yeah.

Anna: I think.

Parinita: Yeah, yeah.

Anna: So you have so many people following you and loving your work and you know when you’ve done something wrong or even if you didn’t realise – when people are telling you that you know this is wrong, you shouldn’t be saying – don’t try to cover it up by adding something that does not follow up with what you’ve done already. Just to say that oh you know I fixed it. Just say you’re sorry and actually try to search in-depth what it is that people are telling you you’re doing wrong. And learn from it!

Parinita: And it’s not that difficult now. Like I understand when you were in the nineties and when she was writing these books, and there wasn’t this mainstream conversation about diversity. There wasn’t really the internet and social media where people from these marginalised backgrounds could talk back to creators and could insert their own opinions and perspectives. Which is what a lot of Native American fans from a lot of different Native American cultures have been calling her out. And obviously a lot of trans fans and trans allies have been calling her out for her really problematic views and what she’s said. But she doesn’t take stock of any of this. And she doesn’t acknowledge that, exactly as you said, that she has so much of a responsibility especially because I think like the Witch, Please episode pointed out, that the Harry Potter fandom seems to attract all these people who are on the margins of society in some way or the other. So a lot of queer fans, a lot of fans of colour, a lot of fans with disabilities and things. And if they except more from you because Harry Potter has played such an important part in their lives, I think you need to take that trust so seriously. You need to be accountable to them. Just because you are now this powerful person, that gives you more of a responsibility like you said. Now that you’re famous and so influential, you have to be more careful.

Anna: Yeah. And it’s heartbreaking because you know she created this beautiful world and she has an amazing imagination. And she’s brought so many people together. And now she’s doing all these things and it breaks my heart because you know I looked up to her because I love writing and I love creating things in my head and you know I was like oh that’s great. And she’s done all this charity. And now she’s [sighs] she’s letting go of all this because she’s not willing to study. And she doesn’t take into consideration what people are telling her.

Parinita: Yes, this absolutely shows, I think, just a lack of empathy.

Anna: Yeah.

Parinita: And just a failure of imagination to think about people who are not as privileged as you, how their lives are. Like I know she’s had a difficult life as a single mother and things. But there are people who are still having as and much more difficult lives that they are going through. And she’s not making it better.

Anna: Yeah.

Parinita: She’s making their lives inherently worse.

Anna: You manage – not you – like her – managed to get out of this difficult life she was living and now she has a voice. Why can’t she help other people? She’s done charity and everything but … ugh give your voice to the people who don’t have one. So when they tell you you’re doing something wrong, don’t beat around the bush. Just listen to what they say and just try to be better. Because you have the ability to do so. If you say you know oh I have made this mistake and I’m fixing it, because of who you are, people will listen. And that’s not something that happens very often.

Parinita: Some people listening to us and indeed this entire podcast may think, why do we hate the things we’re talking about so much?! All we do is critique them. But we’ve both talked about the positive impacts of fandom. And for me this podcast and like I said, just critiquing the things that I love, is very much a part of the love of the thing itself. What is the positive stuff that you’ve received from fandom?

Anna: Oh my god there’s so many. I have met some of my best friends because of fandom and the online community and social media thank god. I have met some great friends that I’ve met in real life as well. But one thing that I can say for sure, I’m gonna speak about Supernatural mostly.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Anna: Because of how great the family behind it is you know both cast, crew but also the online family. They got me into volunteering for a great organisation. It’s called I’m Alive. And it’s a crisis intervention hotline. But it’s mostly online and I got sponsored by Random Acts which is the nonprofit organization from one of the actors that play on Supernatural. And they paid for my training and now I’m volunteering every week online. And I think what’s great is that you can make a difference, you know actively make a difference. Because speaking and talking and you know preaching maybe is – is awesome and it can be very inspiring. But it’s not very often that you see people actively doing something and I think that even if it doesn’t come from the cast or the people who create the show, the actual community behind it can do so much good. So if there is a fandom or something that you love and you have found people behind it that you go along with then you’ve made friendships, try to do some good because there’s so many people behind a family and a fandom. It’s not just you. You all can make a difference. We all can make difference in this world and god knows, we need it.

Parinita: Absolutely. And that just sounds so amazing, the work that you do and the family that you’ve found through fandom. It’s something that I think I’ve read a lot about as well and it just makes me really so emotional

Anna: I know.

Parinita: Because for me just the internet and just being a part of the fandom has given me a lot in terms of how I think about things myself. And just you know expanded my mind in all these different ways. But then hearing stories like yours, and then there’s also I think John Green and Hank Green’s Don’t Forget To Be Awesome.

Anna: Um hmm.

Parinita: They have a super awesome community as well who do a lot of volunteering and educational things. And I think there’s a Harry Potter group as well. Is it called Imagine Better?

Anna: No – I don’t know.

Parinita: I will have to look up the group which I’ll add to the text [it’s called The Harry Potter Alliance]. But I’m glad that just fandom brings all these people from such different backgrounds together to do things you would never have imagined yourself doing otherwise.

Anna: Yeah and it’s not just actively volunteering. Like the community itself can help people. You don’t have to pay money to do something. So you know Jared Padalecki who plays on Supernatural, he did this campaign a few years back. The Always Keep Fighting campaign. And I’m very sad I wasn’t around for it. But that phrase has helped so many people and it’s something that’s going around every day. Because I’m very involved in the fandom and I speak with people from it daily and we’ve made good friendships. But it’s not just the cast or the crew or whoever is creating this. It’s the people behind. And to see that you don’t have to pay money, you can just talk to someone because you both believe that you can always keep fighting and being strong and knowing that you’re not alone is so important. And you know just – keeping that in mind is a thing that’s very helpful and says a lot about the people behind the fandoms.

Parinita: I’m so glad I got a chance to talk to you about all the things but especially about just fandom and what it’s meant for you. Because to me, it just makes me so happy that there are so many different ways that you get joy and pleasure out of just being a fan online and things that wouldn’t have been possible without the internet and without discovering this community. Thank you so much Anna for being a part of this project and for talking to me about your experiences.

Anna: Thank you for having me!

[Outro music]

You’ve been listening to our episode on representations of gender and unfamiliar cultures. For anybody wondering, the non-profit group inspired by J. K. Rowling’s world that I was talking about but had forgotten the name of is called The Harry Potter Alliance. You can listen to the first four episodes of Marginally Fannish wherever you find your podcasts. Thanks again Anna for being such a fantastic person to talk to about some of my favourite things. And, as always, thank you Jack for taking care of the editing.

[Outro music]

You can now listen to Marginally Fannish on Spotify, Apple, Google, or SoundCloud. I’d love to hear from you and talk to you – so any feedback, comments or critiques are very welcome! Get in touch with me on social media, leave a comment on my blog, or email me at edps@leeds.ac.uk. If you’d like to follow the podcast or the PhD project, visit my website marginallyfannish.org where you’ll find both the podcast episodes and the blog. You can also receive updates on Facebook or Instagram at Marginally Fannish or on Twitter where I’m @MarginalFannish. If you enjoyed the podcast, please share it with anyone you think will enjoy it too.

Thanks for listening! Tune in again next time for all things fannish and intersectional!

Episode 4 A Lot of Gold in Gringotts: Representations of Class and Considerations of Gender

Episode Resources: 

For this episode we looked at the following texts:

Academic paper – Restorying the Self: Bending Toward Textual Justice

Alison’s academic presentation – Daemons and Pets as signifiers of social class in Harry Potter and His Dark Materials

Fanfiction – A Wand With Sixteen Strings

Fan podcast – Witch, Please “The Chamber of Whiteness”

Fan podcast – The Gayly Prophet “Witch Please Meets The Gayly Prophet: An Interview with Hannah McGregor”

Fan podcast – Imaginary Worlds “Fanfiction (Don’t Judge)”

Fan podcast – Imaginary Worlds “Fan fiction (special edition)”

Fan podcast – Black Girl Nerds “Geek Misogyny, No Totally”

Fan podcast – The Gayly Prophet “Three Owls In A Trench Coat: POA Chapter 3”

Fan podcast – Reading, Writing, Rowling “Revela Draconem: Draco Malfoy Revealed”

Fan podcast – Harry Potter and the Sacred Text “Failure: Dumbledore’s Army (Book 5, Chapter 18)”

Episode Transcript: 

This is a clean transcript of the episode. If you would prefer the original, unedited version, please let me know!

Photo of Alison Baker

[Intro music]

Welcome to Marginally Fannish, a show where we aim an intersectional lens at some of our favourite media and their fandoms.

[Intro music]

My name is Parinita Shetty and you’re listening to the fourth episode of Marginally Fannish. In this episode, I talk to Alison Baker about social class and cultural capital in the Harry Potter series. We introduce our individual class backgrounds in different British and Indian contexts. We chat about how literature and media perpetuate singular narratives about wealth in both India and the West. We discuss the class connotations of boarding schools, sports, accents, and jobs in both the magical world and the real world. We wonder what the cost of education at Hogwarts is. We explore how bad educational spaces (hello Hogwarts!) disadvantages certain students. We talk about the class implications of freely accessible public scholarship in alternative sites of education.

We also discuss the gender dynamics in both online and offline fan spaces. We love the way fanfiction encourages us to question the way things are. We talk about the different reactions to male interests and female interests in fandom. We chat about the gender politics of fanfiction, and the differences between male and female expressions of fannishness. We end the episode with book recommendations for children and young adults for those who are uncomfortable reading the Harry Potter series due to Rowling’s recent problematic declarations.

Happy listening!

[Intro music]

Parinita: I’m so thrilled to welcome Alison Baker on the podcast today. I first met Alison at a children’s literature conference in Dublin. And then again at a science fiction and fantasy fan convention in London, where she was one of the excellent people in charge of organising the whole thing. So we both have academia and fandom in common.

Alison: Yay!

Parinita: And we’re also both Harry Potter scholars.

Alison: That’s right.

Parinita: And that’s largely what we’re going to be focusing on today. So just to give you a little bit of information about her, Alison is a senior lecturer in education at the University of East London. And she’s also writing her PhD thesis about white working-class children in children’s fantasy fiction. And I can’t wait to read that thesis when it’s done.

Alison: [laughs]

Parinita: It sounds amazing. She has ten years’ experience of teaching on undergraduate and postgraduate teacher education programmes. And she’s also taught in Early Years, Primary, and Special Needs settings in both London and Yorkshire. And she’s likely to explain that the Weasley family have considerable cultural capital in Harry Potter’s world with the slightest provocation, whether at a fan convention or not. [laughs] I am very excited to hear all your thoughts about class and capital in Harry Potter and in fandom. And the ways in which this intersects with gender. But before we go there, do you want to briefly introduce your own experiences with social class?

Alison: Yeah sure. I would count myself as a lower middle-class person. My mother’s parents were factory workers. My dad’s dad was a sort of very minor civil servant. He worked for the Inland Revenue. And I grew up in an area of Hertfordshire – south west parts – which is just outside Watford. And I went to comprehensive school. And I am the first woman in my family to go to university and complete a degree. My mum did a teacher training qualification but she never did her degree. And so a lot of what I experienced at university was extremely alien to my –

Parinita: Hmm.

Alison: My lived experience. And certainly when I first started going into fandom, it was very much university-based fandom.

Parinita: Hmm.

Alison: The people I met all seemed to already know each other. I’d gone to a college with higher education, not a university. It is a university now. And everybody there in fandom seemed to be so much better educated than me, so much cleverer than me, and they all seemed to know each other. And it was a very male-dominated space. In particular, very male STEM dominated.

Parinita: Hmm.

Alison: So everybody there that I met, they were early internet adopters in the 90s. I didn’t have a computer. I’d never grown up with a computer. I felt very, very alienated. And I also experienced sexual harassment in fandom spaces. And one of the things that’s so wonderful to me since coming back into fandom, because I went away for ten years – it was just too awful.

Parinita: Hmm.

Alison: When I came back, one of the most wonderful things is firstly how much more diverse fandom is. Those people I was first encountering are much more now the older fans. Younger fans don’t put up with that kind of stuff as much. And while certainly some spaces in fandom, as I’m sure we will discuss –

Parinita: Yeah.

Alison: Can be really toxic and very alienating for women, by and large the fandom circles that I move in are much more intersectional, much more aware of white privilege.

Parinita: Hmm.

Alison: And male privilege and the privilege of the able-bodied versus people with physical and mental disabilities. And while I do think class privilege is very much still there, it is getting better. That is something that I love. It’s really important to me.

Parinita: For me, I’ve seen that as well because my experiences with fandom have largely been online.

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: I’ve learned so much in fandom just through access to these diverse perspectives that otherwise I wouldn’t ever have encountered.

Alison: Hmm.

Parinita: In terms of class, it was only when I moved to the UK, that I really realised the different contexts of class in this country as compared to my experiences in India.

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: So in India I grew up lower middle-class which in India is very different – it has a very different connotation here in the UK. In British terms I think it would be working-class, perhaps upper working-class.

Alison: Right.

Parinita: In a single-parent household. So my mother owned the house that we lived in so we didn’t have to worry about housing. But we definitely lived quite precariously in terms of her salary. So there were some weeks where we couldn’t afford proper food and she had to scrape together the tuition for my undergraduate education. She doesn’t have a degree as well. She really wanted to but she had to drop out because she had to work and earn some money. And she had to borrow money a lot while I grew up.

Alison: Hmm.

Parinita: But it’s so contextual because in India I know that there are so many people who are so much worse off than I ever was.

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: Because I grew up in a big city, I grew up in Mumbai, so you know that comes with its own associated privileges.

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: But I also knew people in Mumbai who were a little or even significantly better off than me and never had to worry about money. So I’ve grown up without a lot of money and that has really influenced how I see the world now.

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: And how I engage with money. And in India, I think a lot of people, including me, have this monolithic perception of the West. Where in the US and the UK in particular because both countries have such a hold on our imagination.

Alison: Hmm.

Parinita: And we have this idea that Western countries are extremely prosperous. And people don’t have the problems that we have with money and poverty. And it was only when I moved here to the UK and spoke to people and read and educated myself, that I began to realise the different kinds of systemic economic problems that exist. And it’s really helped me see both the UK as well as India in different ways.

Alison: Yeah and conversely, we have in Britain in particular, something I have a lot of problems with in our primary education in particular.

Parinita: Hmm.

Alisonl: Is we do see – obviously when we see India on the news, it tends to be when there are problems.

Parinita: Yeah.

Alison: So for example, you know with the rioting going on at the moment, and we did see a lot about the Delhi rape case – gang rape case.

Parinita: Yeah.

Alison: And things like that. But we also do tend to see India and other developing countries through charitable ways –

Parinita: Yeah.

Alison: Of looking at things. So we think of everybody as being very poor. And, of course, while there is huge poverty in India, there’s also you know there’s people who live very comfortable lives. And also people who are extremely wealthy. We tend to forget there’s a middle class in India.

Parinita: Yeah. And I suppose the culture and media, it perpetuates this idea so much. Like in India, it perpetuates this idea of the West, and in the West, it perpetuates this idea of India-

Alison: Hmm.

Parinita: And other developing countries. Like you know what the dominant narrative is.

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: And especially with things like literature and media, where this privileged group like this middle-class, upper middle-class groups usually tend to create media. So we have a very singular narrative almost. My understanding of the West was largely shaped by the literature that I read.

Alison: Hmm.

Parinita: So poverty isn’t really addressed. Except like maybe Jacqueline Wilson books. Those are the only books I remember reading in the West that dealt with poverty in any real sort of way.

Alison: We’re talking here about the dangers of a single story, aren’t we?

Parinita: Yeah.

Alison: That I know that you’ve discussed a couple of podcasts ago?

Parinita: That’s right.

Alison: But this is also a feeling that I have. This is my part of the hypothesis of my thesis is that actually we don’t see working-class characters in British children’s literature very much.

Parinita: Hmm.

Alison: And when we do, it is through social realism like Jacqueline Wilson. Who I think is amazing.

Parinita: Yeah.

Alison: The research that I’ve done with student teachers is that a lot of my students who define themselves as white working-class women, Jacqueline Wilson was so important to them growing up. Reading books about girls like themselves.

Parinita: Yeah.

Alison: How important that is. Theoretically this is Rudine Sims Bishop’s the window, the mirror and the sliding glass door.

Parinita: Absolutely.

Alison: With children seeing themselves.

An image with the covers of all Jacqueline Wilson books

Image courtesy @FansofJWilson

Parinita: So this made me think of Harry Potter, what you’re saying, that in realistic fiction it’s present, but not so much in fantasy fiction.

Alison: Yes.

Parinita: And in Harry Potter I know that you can read Muggles and Muggle-borns as well as house elves – you can read it through a racialised lens.

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: But I think you can also read it through a class lens as well. Coming from a lower-class background, they lack access to the resources and knowledge that children from wizarding families really seem to take for granted. And –

Alison: Absolutely.

Parinita: Yeah.

Alison: I think this is really evident – you can see it very much in the Deathly Hallows book. Where Ron’s insider knowledge is important but also the fact that Hermione has had to research.

Parinita: Yeah.

Alison: Because she has the intelligence but she doesn’t have the cultural capital that comes with being from a wizarding background. And, of course, Harry to an extent also lacks that. I mean he is the sort of the eyes of the reader.

Parinita: Hmm.

Alison: We see everything through his perspective. Because it’s a limited third-person narrative, we need to have that perspective of someone who’s explaining to us all this stuff that we can’t see.

Parinita: Right and with Harry, it’s something that you mentioned in your paper, which I’ll link to in the transcript, as well as in Witch, Please they mentioned that even though he’s been disadvantaged, so he comes from an impoverished background with the Dursleys, but he’s actually pretty privileged in the magical world.

Alison: Yes.

Parinita: Because he has inherited so much wealth and valuable objects.

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: The Marauder’s Map, his Invisibility Cloak, Hedwig as well. He’s still pretty privileged in terms of class as well.

Alison: Oh yeah.

Parinita: Because he doesn’t have to worry about money.

Alison: Yeah. He’s a lost prince. And he’s a jock you know.

Parinita: Yeah, that’s true. [laughs]

Alison: Yeah. In the Muggle world, obviously, which is sort of not really a mimetic world because in the real world we don’t, unfortunately, we don’t have magic.

Parinita: Hmm.

Alison: The world that J. K. Rowling privileges which is in the magical world, he is an enormously powerful character. He’s naturally good at Quidditch. Which is something that gives him a lot of cache in the school. He is wealthy. He has all of these people around him telling him how awesome he is.

Parinita: [laughs]

Alison: How important he is. So in that world, he is incredibly important. And actually the character that is the poor and maltreated character is Neville.

Parinita: Yeah! That’s true.

Alison: So you know in the wizarding world, while he comes from this old wizarding family and therefore has a lot of cultural privilege, he isn’t wealthy and he is sort of weedy and a bit nerdy and pretty rubbish at a lot of things. And so he’s kind of the foil to Harry’s success.

Parinita: I was also really interested – So in Witch, Please, I’ve been listening to a few of their podcast episodes.

Alison: Oh they’re really good.

Parinita: And they talk about how Filch and Stan Shunpike and even Snape to a degree in his non-Hogwarts avatar, are sort of examples of working-class or lower-class sort of –

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: In the wizarding world, their status is pretty… and the way the narrative positions it, it positions some kinds of working classes, for example, the Weasleys, they are always shown to be as poor. Everyone talks about their poverty.

Alison: Hmm.

Parinita: But they have a lot of like you said cultural capital.

Alison: Yeah they’re landed gentry. They’re not poor. And I think this is where people reading Harry Potter from countries where there is a lot of land, and land is not necessarily expensive.

Parinita: Hmm.

Alison: Like outside cities in the US, land is not expensive.

Parinita: Hmm.

Alison: It’s hard for people who don’t understand that we don’t have a lot of land. We’re a very small country. And so land is actually extremely expensive. So any family that has a house with six or seven bedrooms – I can’t remember how many bedrooms –

Parinita: Yeah.

Alison: The house has. That has a paddock and an orchard are not poor –

Parinita: [laughs]

Alison: In Britain. I mean that’s land that’s going to be worth maybe around a million pounds.

Parinita: You’re so right! And that’s something I never even thought of when I was reading it. So as an Indian reader, I miss a lot of class signifiers that you know –

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: That a British audience would probably recognise. But even as an Indian reader because of I guess my own experiences with not having a lot of money, the Weasleys seem to be doing pretty all right to me. Like the father, Mr. Weasley has this stable job, doesn’t have to worry about getting paid on time. They all seem to have enough food and clothes and you know I was like what are they complaining about? Is this the idea of poverty in the West? [laughs]

Alison: Yeah! And also you know having your brothers’ hand-me-downs at school is a very, very big advantage.

Parinita: Yeah.

Alison: Yeah you know Ron is teased for it and some of his stuff is … you know his wand is a bit rubbish and so on. But it does save a lot of money for the Weasleys to have older brothers who can pass things on. And the knowledge that is passed on to him.

Parinita: Yeah absolutely.

Alison: It’s really helpful to him. There’s other forms of privilege as well. I mean I was very struck when re-reading The Philosopher’s Stone that the animals that children are allowed to take to school. In the first book, they’re allowed an owl, a cat or a frog.

Parinita: Hmm.

Alison: No rats!

Parinita: [laughs]

Alison: But somehow Ron gets to take a rat to school? So there’s got to be some kind of privilege going on there as well. That he can bend the rules a bit.

Parinita: That’s true. He knows what rules are allowed to be –

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: Pushed and what not. And it’s true, it’s like people from a working-class background or in India like a middle-class, lower middle-class background, we don’t know this. We don’t have this possibility that we can imagine because these possibilities don’t exist for us, right?

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: So we don’t know what’s possible and what’s not.

Alison: Yes, so you don’t know which rules are the really, really important rules and which rules are the less important rules.

Parinita: Exactly!

Alison: Or you don’t know the workarounds for it. And that’s the kind of cultural capital and the cultural privilege that Ron’s family have.

Parinita: Yeah absolutely. And also even just with boarding schools, the class connotations of boarding schools.

Alison: Yes!

Parinita: Which I only realised again after moving to the UK. Because in India, when I was growing up, for me and my friends with similar sort of financial backgrounds, boarding school was this thing that our parents threatened us with. [laughs]

Alison: [laughs]

Parinita: When they’re like oh if you’re bad, we’re going to send you to boarding school. Like it was this form of punishment for us. And at the same time, we didn’t think of the cost and all these other factors. Because even in India, boarding schools are pretty elite usually. They’re for the wealthier sort of person.

Alison: Hmm.

Parinita: But I grew up reading Enid Blyton school stories. Like the Chalet School as well. And Malory Towers. So for me I had this romantic notion of boarding schools. But they’re actually so expensive!

Image of book cover. Text says: First Term at Malory Towers by Enid Blyton Image of book cover. Text says: The School at the Chalet by Elinor M. Brent-Dyer

Alison: Yes. I longed to go to boarding school as a child. It just felt like you know reading the books, it seemed like so much fun.

Parinita: Yeah.

Alison: And I grew up reading comics as a very small girl. I learned to read through reading comics really. And my favourite comic was called Bunty. There was a long-running serial in Bunty. I’m really showing my age here.

Parinita: [laughs]

Alison: Which was called The Four Marys. It was about four girls, all called Mary, who went to boarding school. And every week they had an adventure. You know there was something amazing like catching a smuggler or –

Parinita: [laughs]

Alison: A spy. Or working out that what seemed to be a ghost in the bell tower was actually you know the boyfriend of a maid or something –

Parinita: [laughs]

Alison: Like that. And they would just sound brilliant to me. I thought that would be a wonderful thing to do. Go to boarding school and catch smugglers.

Parinita: Absolutely! Me too!

Alison: Yeah. But funnily enough, the research – the fieldwork that I’m doing in school at the moment, the children that I’ve been reading Harry Potter with – they’re ten and eleven. They don’t want to go to Hogwarts. They think it sounds awful.

Parinita: Oh really?!

Alison: Yeah. But I think it’s partly because they haven’t grown up reading boarding school stories for one thing. And for another thing, I think it’s also a social class issue for them.

Parinita: Hmm.

Alison: One of the boys said to me, he didn’t want to go to Hogwarts because they play Quidditch. And he plays football. So I think that’s a way of him explaining how he feels he wouldn’t fit in at Hogwarts.

Parinita: That’s so interesting! Because another thing was something that I took for granted is cricket.

Alison: Yes!

Parinita: Which in India, cricket is very much a common person’s sport.

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: Like we play it in the street and just because of colonisation I guess, we’ve just inherited our love for the game And whereas when I came here, so my boyfriend, he’s Scottish. And for him football is the common person’s game and cricket is this elite sort of thing where you need all these – it’s a posh sport essentially.

Alison: Yes. Quidditch I think has a lot in common with cricket. But also it’s like polo. Because you know you’ve got to have a broom, you’ve got to have the space.

Parinita: Yeah.

Alison: I mean I grew up playing cricket on the street as well. We would have stumps chalked on a garage door and –

Parinita: Yeah, yeah.

Alison: I would bowl and bat against those. Also I think it’s the weather. [laughs] You know we don’t –

Parinita: [laughs] Yeah.

Alison: We don’t have the – the long summer days without rain are quite unusual [laughs].

Parinita: [laughs] Yeah, I have noticed.

Alison: Yes. And so football is ninety minutes. You can run around in the rain for ninety minutes. It’s not necessarily pleasurable but it’s doable. But yeah all you need in order to play football is a ball and two things that you have decided are goal posts.

Parinita: Hmm.

Alison: Which were, where I was growing up, it was usually someone’s gate. That was the goal.

Parinita: Yeah.

Alison: We used to play on the road you know with houses on one side of the road and the houses on the other side of the road and that you’d kick the ball and try and hit someone’s gate.

Parinita: [laughs]

Alison: You’d usually get shouted at.

Parinita: [laughs] Well … as one does.

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: That really makes me wonder whether … so in The Gayly Prophet episode they mentioned that Stan Shunpike, his accent, had class connotations –

Alison: Yes, it does.

Parinita: Just because of the way that it was written. And this is not something I would have ever picked up on. His and Hagrid’s as well.

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: Hagrid’s is more regional?

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: And they propose that Stan Shunpike hadn’t gone to Hogwarts because nobody in Hogwarts speaks like that. Which made me wonder, is there a cost of education to Hogwarts? Would they charge tuition? Boarding? Food? Like is it all free? Who pays for this?

Alison: I know. It’s very odd. Because … do you remember the character of Colin Creevey?

Parinita: Yeah, yeah.

Alison: Because he bounces up in a very unsubtle J. K. Rowling way. Says, “Cor blimey eh I’m Colin Creevey!” [adopts accent]

Parinita: [laughs]

Alison: “My dad’s a milkman!”

Parinita: Oh yeah that’s right.

Alison: And again that’s a British thing. I don’t know whether an American or an Indian person reading those books would know what a milkman was. But it’s a traditional working-class job.

Parinita: Hmm.

Alison: As is Stan Shunpike’s working on public transport –

Parinita: Yeah.

Alison: Is a typical working-class job. And so maybe there are working-class people at Hogwarts. We don’t know whether there’s tuition fees paid because Harry never gets a bill, does he?

Parinita: That’s true.

Alison: On the other hand, he has so much money that – well actually, no, we – I mean we know a lot about his financial position. So maybe if there is a tuition fee, we would know about it?

Parinita: But even if there isn’t any tuition fee, you still have to buy so many things.

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: Like books and cauldrons and all these things. So even if you don’t have to pay money to be educated, you still need all these things that –

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: A person who has a lot of gold in Gringotts won’t have to worry about.

Alison: Absolutely. You have to buy everything, don’t you? You have to buy your robes, you have to buy … I mean in Britain you know people have to buy school uniforms. There are very limited situations in which there would be a grant to help extremely impoverished –

Parinita: No, India is the same. We have school uniforms as well.

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: My mum had enough money for uniforms like that’s not something that I had to think about.

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: But I know there were people in my school who – so I went to a Catholic school, which in India, it’s called a convent school.

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: And that’s essentially for people from lower middle-class and middle-class backgrounds who want their children to be educated in good English.

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: Because English was also such a status thing and it’s still a status thing in India.

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: Because they think the nuns teach us good English. [laughs] Which, again, lots of colonisation things to unpack there. Another thing is Draco Malfoy and Dudley Dursley.

Alison: Yeah!

Parinita: Just in terms of – so they come from privilege and status.

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: So that’s very evident. They bully Harry and they bully people all around them. But they also have these over-indulgent parents.

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: And they undergo abuse and trauma of a different form than the one that Harry goes through and come through at the end of the series more empathetic and more … I suppose respectful of different exp – maybe not respectful. But at least understanding of different experiences.

Alison: Yes. I mean the Malfoys live in Malfoy Manor.

Parinita: Yeah.

Alison: Which again, they have inherited land. We know that Lucius Malfoy is extremely connected to the government.

Parinita: Yeah.

Alison: And definitely has a lot of social capital. The Dursleys, on the other hand, are nouveau riche.

Parinita: Hmm.

Alison: So they’re kind of newly arrived into sort of the upper middle class but are not accepted yet. So again this is something that British people would pick up on, particularly British people my age.

Parinita: Hmm.

Alison: Because I’m nearly the same age as J. K. Rowling; I think she’s a little bit older than me.

Parinita: Hmm.

Alison: But the very socially conscious or class-conscious sitcoms of the 70s and 80s in particular in The Chamber of Secrets where Dobby turns up and ruins the dinner party that Petunia is trying to give to her husband’s boss and his wife.

Parinita: Yeah.

Alison: They are very, very class conscious.

Parinita: Ah.

Alison: That shows that they’re social climbers and wanting to sort of elevate themselves. The way the décor is described is very much kind of a nouveau riche décor. And compared to sort of the old money aristocracy of the Weasleys.

Parinita: Hmm.

Alison: And that shabby but comfortable house.

Parinita: Yeah because –

Alison: Of the way –

Parinita: I think in the Witch, Please episode – or was it The Gayly Prophet one? But they noticed the comparison between The Burrow versus the Dursleys’ house and how in the movie – it was Witch¸ Please – in the movie, they showed it as stark and boring and it looked like the same house that everyone else had in the suburban streets. Whereas The Burrow was welcoming and warm and –

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: You would want to live there.

Alison: And idiosyncratic.

Parinita: Hmm.

Alison: It’s not the same as everyone else’s house. And so –

Parinita: Ah.

Alison: Yeah it’s not been bought off the peg. It’s something that has been inherited and added on to. Have you ever read any Georgette Heyer?

Parinita: Yeah!

Alison: Yes. So the way that the houses of the aristocrats in the old houses, in particular, A Civil Contract. The house in that that had started off as a kind of a Tudor house but then a Stuart bit was built on to it. And then a Queen Anne bit was built on

Parinita: Right.

Alison: And then another bit was added. So it’s a big hodge-podge of building styles.

Parinita: Hmm.

Alison: And you know it’s got long, drafty passages. It’s very inconvenient. But you know the family love it and they will do anything to preserve it.

Parinita: Yeah and just even having a house that you don’t have to worry about like being kicked out of –

Alison: Yes!

Parinita: Or not affording rent, surely that elevates you above poverty. Like –

Alison: Oh! So much! Yeah.

Image of The Burrow from the film Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets

Image courtesy Reddit

Image of the Burrow from the movie Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets

Image courtesy the Harry Potter Wiki

Parinita: In the books, class is mentioned only as a way of good versus bad, like positioning good wealth versus bad wealth.

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: Harry’s own wealth is passed without commentary really. And in the Witch, Please thing as they mentioned, the Malfoys are a representation of bad wealth. Whereas Harry is this – he’s come and he’s you know liberating house elves whereas the Malfoys, they have house elves. But Harry liberates Dobby and you know he’s nice to Kreacher and stuff eventually, but he doesn’t really try to upend the system of house elf slavery at all.

Alison: No.

Parinita: Like he’s not – there’s no radical measures in his idea of class.

Alison: Yeah!

Parinita: I guess.

Alison: Yes. He doesn’t challenge it in the way that Hermione challenges it. Although I think Hermione goes about it in a very white feminist way.

Parinita: Yeah!

Alison: She tries to trick the house elves into becoming free by leaving little knitted hats and scarves around the place. And that’s really wrong. Also she’s not their master. So she can’t free them anyway. Because she –

Parinita: And also this is something that we spoke about before and it’s something that I’ve been listening to in the podcasts, that she doesn’t have any conversations with them. Like it’s never about what they want. And when they do express what they want which is like they don’t want to be free, she just assumes this attitude of oh no you don’t know your own lives and it’s something –

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: I know better so I’m going to come and I’m going to liberate you. There’s no attempt at trying to raise awareness in a way that act – like including them in the decision.

Alison: No!

Parinita: It’s just I’m going to come here and I’m going to decide for you and your life will be great, thank you very much.

Alison: Yes! [laughs] And without any kind of idea of like well you know if they lose their place at Hogwarts, where are they going to go? What’s going to happen to them? And even when she sees what has happened to Winky, it doesn’t stop her. It’s a very uncomfortable thing for me to read.

Parinita: And it’s also presented, again like Harry’s perspective, it’s presented quite uncritically.

Alison: Yes!

Parinita: There’s no – it’s not like she is an example of a bad feminist. In fact, her activism isn’t really taken very seriously by anybody including the narrator. Like there’s no –

Alison: No.

Parinita: Yeah. So yeah, it is uncomfortable. But speaking about the cost of education at Hogwarts I just wanted to slightly shift to discussing the class implications of public scholarship.

Alison: Yes.

Parinita: Specifically how alternative sites can act as sites of education and politicisation. So in Hogwarts, Dumbledore’s Army provided that space where they were you know resisting Umbridge and so –

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: Teaching themselves Defense Against The Dark Arts. And Fudge was really afraid that Dumbledore was radicalising the youth.

Alison: Yes.

Parinita: And in the real world, the internet in general and fandom and fan podcasts in particular, can act as spaces of education. At least I’ve found that in my experience. I’ve learned a lot in these informal digital spaces. And this seems pertinent given that we’re in the middle of these university strikes in the UK.

Alison: One of the things sort of as a side note is how bad the education is at Hogwarts.

Parinita: [laughs] Yes!

Alison: So it’s interesting that the school is sort of the only school that we know about in Britain. And yet it is so bad. And the only good examples of teaching that we see are by Lupin who is promptly sacked because he’s a werewolf.

Parinita: Yeah.

Alison: He is a good teacher. He is very encouraging, the lessons that are described have logical progress, there’s a clear outcome. He assesses them, the students, and he gives positive and encouraging feedback to them. And the other one is Harry.

Parinita: Hmm.

Alison: Harry as a teacher we see him growing in his pedagogical understanding, we see him planning his lessons, and it is peer-to-peer. And he has a lot of peer-to-peer learning in the lessons that he gives the students. And thinks about who will work well with who. Who will encourage who. And the students really learn from him. And there are other examples of alternative peer-to-peer education. Because Hermione is in the role of a teacher a lot.

Parinita: Yeah.

Alison: Hermione is a good teacher. She does teach Ron and Harry. And we know that because she’s often told off for helping Neville, that –

Parinita: Yeah.

Alison: She is involved in peer education with Neville. But yeah all the very powerful examples of learning within the books are from you know the outsider teacher. And from peer-to-peer education.

Parinita: I think this bad teaching in Hogwarts, as you said, it’s the only school in the UK. And especially for students from Muggle-born families –

Alison: Yes.

Parinita: They’re at such a distinct disadvantage. Students from wizarding families, they have the skills or are they assumed to have some skills and knowledge? Or even if you have bad teaching in Hogwarts, it doesn’t matter, because your parents can you know make up the difference.

Alison: Yeah. You’ll get a job at the Ministry of Magic anyway.

Parinita: Yeah – or you know you can just have our wealth and you’ll have a house and that’s fine. You’ll have all this inherited wealth and objects. And it’s so similar to real life educational institutions as well. Like where children from families that have these class markers and status and the knowledge to … you know like reading, for example. Just reading to children. It gives so many benefits.

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: But not everybody can do this. Because not everyone knows to do this or not everyone has the time to do this. Because if you’re working all the time and you really don’t have time to do this extra thing because you’re cooking or whatever.

Alison: Yeah and the confidence as well.

Parinita: Yeah.

Alison: The confidence to know what to do in order to help your child. And particularly parents who had a poor educational experience themselves. Then they don’t necessarily know how to help their children with homework. Parents who aren’t confident in maths for example, wouldn’t have a clue how to support their children with maths homework.

Parinita: Yeah for sure. And also critical thinking. In India, mainstream education doesn’t really teach you how to think. It teaches you what to think and it teaches you to learn the answers byheart –

Alison: Yes.

Parinita: And parrot them out in the exam. So you have no contextual knowledge. You can’t apply the knowledge that you learned to any situation.

Alison: Hmm.

Parinita: And even in terms of history. And it’s just – I think a lot of the problems that we’re facing now are due to a lack of education and not questioning what you’re told.

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: But for me, I’ve found so much liberation online in the internet and podcasts and fandom. Hannah McGregor from Witch, Please says that it’s this form of accessible scholarship. She positions her podcast as making feminist scholarship accessible in a way by using Harry Potter and making it relevant to people’s lives. And not just in this ivory tower talking amongst themselves. And I find that so empowering because that’s been my experience with knowledge. Just because from my background, I wouldn’t have had this knowledge otherwise. And that’s why for me, I love doing this [podcast] as a part of my PhD research project, because I had this perception of academia as well. That they only talk amongst themselves and don’t engage with people and what people like. And for me, fandom and the internet has been such a fantastic educational resource that’s free, largely. You still have barriers because you still need access to technology.

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: Or the language and time to be able to play around with these things. But if you have that, it makes it so much easier to be able to get this information and knowledge even if you don’t have a very good formal education. Or even if you don’t have formal education.

Alison: Yeah, I agree with you. One of the things that I found very exciting working with children in school because I discuss the books with the children I work with.

Parinita: Hmm.

Alison: But they also create something. So there is an outcome. So either they make something or they draw something. Or we do some drama. Using these books and using in particular Harry Potter and the other books I’ve been reading with the children to interrogate their understanding of social class and class markers within the books –

Parinita: Hmm.

Alison: Has been really exciting and really interesting. It’s the way that the children have really taken to doing these things has made me think a lot about my pedagogy and the way that I teach my students at university. And the way that we can use creativity to draw out critical thinking in learners at all stages of their learning.

Parinita: Yeah! Absolutely. Just because I think critical thinking and just exposure to knowledge and questioning authority and different ways of thinking is so important. So with the university strikes in the UK, it was my first experience of striking and just talking to people on the picket line about the condition in the UK higher education –

Alison: Hmm.

Parinita: System. And it was so shocking to me because again you know this colonised mind. Like in India we think the West has it all figured out and has it all sorted out. So someone on the picket line was telling me about how in this neoliberal university where essentially students consider themselves to be consumers

Alison: Yes.

Parinita: Rather than learners. Again in the Witch, Please episode, one of them said how in the real world, governments and universities are using tuition and debt to deradicalise students.

Alison: Yes.

Parinita: So that young people don’t get together to overthrow the status quo and to overthrow the system.

Alison: That’s so true. And the way that – I haven’t had this experience so much but I’ve heard from other colleagues who are lecturing in other disciplines – the way that students, some students almost seem to want to be taught for the test. They are asking, “Do I have to – is this going to be in the exam?” Or “Am I going to have to write an essay on this text?”

Parinita: Hmm.

Alison: And therefore don’t want to explore widely outside of what they are going to be graded on. And that entirely comes from this neoliberal ideal of education as market and students as consumers. And wanting to not challenge themselves or challenge anything because what they want at the end is their good grade. That they can then go on and be part of a neoliberal market. And use their scholarship in employment. And –

Parinita: Yeah.

Alison: It is profoundly sad. And so the lack of willingness to challenge received ideas and ask what is education for? What is my education for? Is the way that we’re going about this the best way? And of course, the way that students are asking that if their tuition fees are not going towards paying their lecturers, where are they going?

Parinita: Yeah.

Alison: What are they being used for? And certainly in some universities, students seeing their lecturers striking while looking at a big new fancy building being built probably have the right to ask those questions.

Parinita: Yeah absolutely. Because literally the lecturers and the admin staff, they’re responsible for delivering this education to you. If they’re not well-paid, if they’re worrying about having to work another job just to pay the bills. Is that what you want? Is that what you really want from your education?

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: Which is why I think fandom, there’s so much potential there to be able to learn to question things that you regularly would take for granted. For example, for me it has been fan podcasts. But also fanfiction because as a teenager I used to read and write Harry Potter fanfiction.

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: And I learned so much there in terms of questioning things as – questioning canon, first of all. And then just that took me to – oh if canon is not this set thing, it’s dynamic, and fans have a say in it – maybe other things as well. So just the dialogue and the conversations that fans have. I don’t read a lot of fanfiction anymore. But I know that it’s played such a huge role in shaping what I think about the world. Just because it highlights marginalised perspectives; perspectives which are marginalised not only in canon but just in mainstream media and culture in general.

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: So when did you first encounter fanfiction? What has your experience been?

Alison: I wrote fanfiction myself from a very young age before I really knew what fanfiction was.

Parinita: Ah.

Alison: And my fanfiction was school stories. I wrote Chalet School fanfiction and I also wrote Antonia Forest’s fanfiction about her family – the Marlows.

Parinita: Ah.

Image of book cover. Text says: Autumn Term by Antonia Forest

Alison: And that’s what I grew up doing. Making my own stories really. And also the way I played as a small child. My dad is a huge fantasy and science fiction fan as well. And so he read me all of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings books and the whole of the Narnia series before I went to secondary school.

Parinita: Amazing.

Alison: And so I played out battle scenes from Lord of the Rings with my Barbies.

Parinita: [laughs]

Alison: And my other toys. My Barbies were hobbits.

Parinita: [laughs]

Alison: I always laugh a little bit when and this is again common – this is a gender thing in the way that boys’ interests versus girls’ interests are privileged. And that the assumption that girls who are playing with dolls are reenacting traditional femininity. Firstly, well what’s wrong with that? What’s wrong with being feminine? Just because girls like you know – and this is again a Hermione thing – just because Hermione wants to look pretty –

Parinita: Yeah. Or just because Fleur is feminine and badass at the same time. Ginny is feminine and badass at the same time.

Alison: You can be both!

Parinita: Yeah. You can be both.

Alison: So yeah that’s sort of my fanfic really. When I read the fanfiction A Wand With Sixteen Strings

Parinita: Um hmm.

Alison: How I loved that because it was the Antonia Forest characters in Hogwarts. And it was so brilliant. It’s so perfect.

Parinita: Yeah. And just school stories in general like they place – so I know a lot of these school stories, Malory Towers, Chalet School, they have some problematic gender dynamics. But when I was reading it when I was younger, for me, I glossed over that completely. And I loved that girls were going on adventures –

Alison: Yes!

Parinita: But were also having these domestic things and midnight feasts and sports and plays and like at the centre of their stories. Which I loved because I think –

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: And that’s why it makes me so mad when fanfiction is denigrated by people because it is largely female dominated. And it is largely, like a lot of teenage girls writing fanfiction. And you know this whole thing of the Mary Sue as well. It just drives me crazy.

Alison: Oh my goodness yes! As if when you read you know a lot of thrillers written by men for men, we can see the Mary – well the Marty Stu all over those.

Parinita: Yeah!

Alison: We can see the kind of rugged and handsome and incredibly clever and incredibly strong and always-gets-the-girl hero.

Parinita: No but even in that Imaginary Worlds episode that I listened to, what’s his name Luke Skywalker! Bruce Wayne! Batman! How are they not – like they call it Gary Stu but yeah Marty Stu is good as well. How are they not this embodiment of – it’s wish fulfillment. And men are so used to that being the norm that in fanfiction when women are trying to resist that and you know centre their own perspectives and experiences, that’s something to be mocked and that’s something to be ridiculed and not taken seriously.

Alison: And a thing that is of interest to girls is automatically considered to be of low quality and a bit silly.

Parinita: Yeah.

Alison: If a teenage boy has his walls plastered with Led Zeppelin posters and again here I am showing my age.

Parinita: [laughs]

Alison: That’s somehow okay because he’s idolising the guitar playing and the lyricism and the musicality. But when a girl – a teenage girl – like when I was a teenage girl, I had Duran Duran and Adam Ant posters all over my bedroom wall. But you know it would be assumed that I was doing that because I fancied them.

Parinita: Yeah.

Alison: Which yes, I did.

Parinita: [laughs]

Alison: But that wasn’t the only reason. It was also that sense of camaraderie of being around other girls who shared my interests.

Parinita: Yeah absolutely. This is why I’m so happy that the Archive Of Our Own they won the Hugo award. It’s such a fantastic space because it was started by largely women –female fans.

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: And they coded; they had lawyers; they had writers; they designed the structure that they wanted in a way so they had trigger warnings, they had spoiler warnings.

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: They normalized all this in the structure of their platform because they wanted to own their own platform. And especially in a space like science fiction and fantasy. I know we’re running out of time but I do want to talk to you about your experiences with that quickly just in terms of gender in offline fandom. Because I know that you’re more familiar with that than I am. My experiences have largely been online fandom.

Alison: Yeah. One of the things that I think has been evident for quite a long time in terms of gender and offline fandom is quite exactly what we’ve just been talking about. It’s the way that anything that is of interest to girls and women is assumed to not be of good quality. Anything that is of interest to men is assumed to be of amazing quality and for everybody. It’s a very, very interesting perspective. And I’m delighted that that has been overturned because of the amount of women’s writing that is being recognised in … and particularly – I know you’ve discussed the term women of colour – the way that black women and East Asian women, their writing has been recognised – and disabled women, actually.

Parinita: Yeah.

Alison: Within the Hugos in particular. And that’s been wonderful. And that has to be because more people are engaging with the writing – writing by women. And it’s not just seen as – writing by women is not just writing for women. It’s writing for everybody in the way that writing by men has traditionally been seen as writing for everybody. And, of course, within that we’ve got nonbinary and LGBTQ people’s writing being valued far more than it ever has been. And while you know there are reactionary groups springing up and claiming that this writing is only being recognised because it is by women and nonbinary people. Well, you know, too bad. Those kind of ideas are now becoming in the minority, I hope.

Parinita: Yeah. And I’m so happy about it. So in the Black Girl Nerds episode, one of them proposed that the difference between male fandom and female fandom is that male fandom is about collecting merchandise and trivia and knowing the canon completely.

Alison: Yes.

Parinita: Versus female fandom which is transforming the canon because –

Alison: Yes.

Parinita: Often women are dissatisfied by the lack of nuanced and complex representations of their identities!

Alison: I love that! Because that was another – you know when I first joined fandom, I was in my 20s and had a really, really bad experience of it. There was so much gatekeeping around you know these kind of almost like these sphinx’s riddles that you had to answer before you were allowed in through the door.

Parinita: [laughs]

Alison: Of the pub or wherever the meeting was. And it was sort of testing – this idea of testing. It’s not enough that you say I like Batman. You have to know the number of the comics, that which number of the comics did The Joker first appear in. Or where was King Tut from. And it is so frustrating. It’s a bit like some of those trading card things. It’s got to be one-upmanship.

Parinita: Yeah.

Alison: I think around my women and nonbinary friends, conversations are not all about one-upmanship and about knowing the sort of niche bits of knowledge.

Parinita: Yeah just loving the thing is enough. Just being passionate about it. And you know –

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: Just being excited about talking to somebody about a thing that you love, that’s enough. You don’t have to prove that you’re a real fan or you’re a proper fan.

Alison: You’re sharing your connection to it. And that’s so important. Which is where the transformative fandom comes from. Because I think women and queer and nonbinary people and trans people have always had to find the back door into the thing they loved. If you’re watching Star Trek for example which is where, of course, transformative fandom many would say started.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Alison: It’s a very male-dominated space. So you have to find your way into it. And I did love original Star Trek but my Star Trek enjoyment from fandom came through much more Deep Space Nine where it was a much more wider variety of people. And the person I saw in Doctor Who fandom was always the companion.

Parinita: Yeah.

Alison: And my Doctor was Tom Baker. And my companion was Sarah Jane Smith. Who was a brilliant character. You know she’s feminist, she’s not there just to scream and fall over. She was the person that often suggested different ideas to the Doctor. And different ways of looking at things to the Doctor. And I loved Sarah Jane. And it was really through her that I became a Doctor Who fan. I mean I was watching Doctor Who when I was six-seven-eight. You know I was a very small child. And –

Parinita: Yeah.

Alison: Sarah Jane has always been the person who stayed with me.

Parinita: That’s why I’m so excited that Jodie is now the Doctor.

Alison: Yes!

Parinita: Because my Doctor Who journey started with New Who. So I only started with Christopher Eccleston. And I loved it. But I loved it in a way that I didn’t really see myself in it.

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: Even when there were the companions and things. I was just like oh yeah this is fun, this is an adventure. But ever since Jodie’s run, I’ve noticed that there’s this sort of very deliberate increase in the diversity. Just even casual diversity as well as the companions. And I love Jodie’s interactions as well. I feel like they’re not trying to just make her a man in a woman’s body, you know?

Alison: Yeah!

Parinita: She’s emotional and enthusiastic and has relationships and it’s – I identify so much with her and with the companions and just with the stories now that she is my Doctor even though I love all the Doctors that I’ve met. But she is definitely my Doctor.

Alison: Yeah. I loved Rose when New Who started. But actually Donna was –

Parinita: Yeah.

Alison: I see myself in Donna.

Parinita: Absolutely.

Alison: She’s older, she’s you know she is a working-class girl, and you know I love the way she was very down to earth. And not always overly impressed with the Doctor

Parinita: Yeah.

Alison: As Rose often was. And then you know –

Parinita: And it wasn’t about a romantic relationship.

Alison: No.

Parinita: Which usually you always need to have someone fall in love with someone for it to –

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: For their presence as a woman to count.

Alison: Yeah. There was much more of a buddy relationship – a collegial relationship. And I really appreciated that.

Parinita: Do you have any final thoughts that you sort of wanted to say?

Alison: I do want to acknowledge the problematic and frankly transphobic nature of a lot of what J. K. Rowling has said at the moment. And the transformative works aspect of Potter fandom is something that continues to give me joy. And I do think that now Harry Potter’s ours. He belongs to the fans. I’m not so sure about the Fantastic Beasts aspect. Although my stepson loves Fantastic Beasts. He loves Newt Scamander. I see a lot of my stepson in Newt as a neurodiverse child.

Parinita: Yeah.

Alison: So I do love that. I sort of did want to acknowledge that there are other amazing books for children and young adults around at the moment. That if people feel uncomfortable still reading Harry Potter then I suggest they look at Patrick Ness’s The Rest of Us Just Live Here which is a brilliant book. Also I’m reading at the moment Scarlett Thomas’s Dragon’s Green and other books in that series. Also I love, although I acknowledge that some people have been very critical of Rebecca Roanhorse, but I love her book Trail of Lightning. So there are other things out there that people can look for and enjoy.

Parinita: Thank you for the excellent recommendations! I’m just going to add a book that I just finished reading yesterday. It’s called Nevermoor – The Trials of Morrigan Crow.

Alison: Yes!

Parinita: By Jessica Townsend. And I love it because it’s sort of like Harry Potter but also Jupiter North very much gives me a Doctor energy.

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: So it’s like a combination of two of my favourite things and it’s much more explicitly diverse. I don’t have to racebend or I don’t have to contend with just seeing white as you know the protagonists.

Book cover image of Dragon's Green by Scarlett Thomas Book cover image of Nevermoor: The Trials of Morrigan Crow by Jessica Townsend Book cover image of The Rest Of Us Just Live Here by Patrick Ness Book cover image of Trail of Lightning by Rebecca Roanhorse

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: So I love that. And I absolutely agree with you. I think J. K. Rowling … I’ve lost the feeling of affection that I used to have for her.

Alison: Yeah.

Parinita: And it’s been happening for quite a few years but this completely you know I’ve completely disconnected from her. But the series itself, it was something that really saved me during a very difficult childhood.

Alison: Yes.

Parinita: And it’s something that’s given me so much that I still love the books. And like you said, I think they belong to us. We don’t have to like her, we don’t have to agree with anything that she says. They belong to us because she’s put it out there and it’s changed so many people’s lives. But also I’m glad you recommended other books as well. Because there are more inclusive, more progressive books out there. And to quote someone on a podcast that we listened to, who quoted Sam Winchester from Supernatural, “At the end of the day, it’s our story. So we get to write it.”

Alison: We do.

Parinita: Which I think is a very good fandom encapsulation. And just yeah it’s a good way to think of Potterverse. Thank you so much for being on the podcast!

Alison: Thank you!

Parinita: And for the company! This was amazing. I’m so glad I got to chat with you.

Alison: I’m so glad you asked me. Thank you so much. I’ve really enjoyed it.

[Outro music]

You’ve been listening to our episode on social class in Harry Potter and gender in fandom. You can listen to the first three episodes of Marginally Fannish wherever you find your podcasts. Thanks again Alison for being a part of this project and allowing me to think about the world through the lenses of both class and gender. And thank you Jack for doing a stellar job with the editing even though the audio quality was sometimes terrible.

Episode 3 Just Let Me Hug a Tree in the Woods: Wicca, Paganism, and Religion in Fantasy Media

Episode Resources: 

For this episode we looked at the following texts:

Blog post – Harry Potter: “Making Evil Look Innocent”

The Guardian article – JK Rowling confirms that there were Jewish wizards at Hogwarts

The Chilling Adventures of Sabrina episode – Chapter Seventeen: The Missionaries

Fan podcast – Woke Doctor Who “Faith in the Whoniverse”

Fan podcast – Witch, Please “Special Bonus Episode: Secret Feminist Agenda 1.7”

Fan podcast – Harry Potter and the Sacred Text “Halloween Edition: On Witches and Brett Kavanaugh”

Fan podcast – Breaking The Glass Slipper “Cultural Traditions of Magic – with Zen Cho”

Paper on Tolkien spirituality – “Honouring the Valar, Finding the Elf Within: The Curious History of Tolkien Spirituality and the Religious Affordance of Tolkien’s Literary Mythology”

Fan podcast – Imaginary Worlds “Faith in Fantasy” 

Fan podcast – Harry Potter and the Sacred Text “Special Edition: Owl Post and Broderick Greer”

Fan podcast – Harry Potter and the Sacred Text “Special Edition: Owl Post and Rabbi Scott Perlo (Again!)”

Fan podcast – Harry Potter and the Sacred Text “Owl Post and Other Journeys with Professor Stephanie Paulsell”

Fan podcast – Harry Potter and the Sacred Text “Owl Post Edition: Reclaiming Tradition with Professor Matt Potts”

Fan podcast – Harry Potter and the Sacred Text “Owl Post Edition: How to Be in Community with Burns Stanfield”

Fan podcast – Harry Potter and the Sacred Text “Faith: The House-Elf Liberation Front”

 

Episode Transcript: 

This is a clean transcript of the episode. If you would prefer the original, unedited version, please let me know!

Photograph of Anna Milon

[Intro music]

Welcome to Marginally Fannish, a show where we aim an intersectional lens at some of our favourite media and their fandoms.

[Intro music]

My name is Parinita Shetty and you’re listening to the third episode of Marginally Fannish. In this episode, I chat with Anna Milon about the representations of Wicca, paganism, and religion in media. We discuss how Christianity forms the framework of most Western fantasy. As a practising pagan and scholar, Anna outlines how the word witch means different things to different people. We chat about faith as both a religious and a political identity. Anna shares her frustration about the inaccurate representations of Wicca in mainstream media and culture which further marginalises the religion. I learn more about Wicca’s attempts to make the religion more inclusive for diverse groups of people.

We also talk about the different kinds of faith in fantasy and faith inspired by fantasy. We discuss how popular culture stories are replacing religious stories and how this influences the ways in which people make sense of the world. We draw parallels between religion and fandom and discuss the importance of inclusivity and intersectionality in both. We’re excited about how canon – both religious and fannish – is increasingly being interpreted in ways which highlight previously marginalised voices. We love that people are making canon which was written dozens or even thousands of years ago (depending on which canon you’re talking about) more relevant to contemporary social, cultural, and political contexts. Finally, we discuss how fandom offers the space to question the dominant religious framework as well as read a text through multiple spiritual lenses.

Happy listening!

[Intro music]

Anna Milon is a Russian-born London-bred doctoral researcher who has a tentative hope never to leave academia.  She has edited two Tolkien collections – Tolkien the Pagan? Reading Middle-earth through a Spiritual Lens and Poetry and Song in the works of J.R.R. Tolkien. Her written works have appeared in Beyond Realities 2015Gender Identity and Sexuality in Current Fantasy and Science Fiction, and most recently, A Shadow Within: Evil in Fantasy and Science Fiction, all of which have been published by Luna Press. She juggles all this writing, editing, and researching with the not-at-all-unlikely hobby of Medieval Swordsmanship. She will be presenting a paper on were-foxes called “Sexy Fox: Female Sexualisation in Modern Retellings of the East Asian Were-fox Tale” at the upcoming GIFCon i.e. Glasgow International Fantasy Conversations which will take place on the 28th and 29th of May this year at the University of Glasgow. I’ll be there too presenting my paper on intersectionality and fan podcasts, so if you’re nearby, come say hi!

Parinita: Hello! Today with me, I have Anna and we’re going to be talking about religion and faith in fandom and in media and in the real world. So Anna, would you like to introduce yourself and tell us about your experiences with religion?

Anna: So I am a second year PhD at the University of Exeter, studying very broadly speaking paganism and pagan representation in fantasy. And I started my application letter with, “As a witch!”

Parinita: [laughs]

Anna: So I am an eclectic solitary pagan and what that means is I do not have a coven or a group that I regularly work with. I mostly work alone. And rather than being a follower of a specific pagan movement like Wicca or Druidry, I pick and mix. And I’m inspired by a lot of different spiritual movements and a lot of different settings and ways of practicing. So yeah, that’s me.

Parinita: Wow, I didn’t know about this background and I find it really fascinating and I’m so excited to know more about it. Because I knew we were going to be talking about paganism and Wicca but like all religious people, you’d have different experiences as well within paganism, within eclectic paganism, within Wicca. There’s no monolithic experience, right, so I’m really excited to hear about yours. Well, as for me, I’m not really a religious person at all. I went to a Catholic school in India, in Mumbai, and I grew up in a Hindu household. So I’ve been at close quarters with a lot of religion but I don’t really know details about it except what I know through the people in my life and through media and through just conversations, I guess. I’m curious about religion but not because I think I want to find religion for myself, but because I find it really interesting how people engage with religion and how it helps them. And their view of the world through a religious lens. So yeah that’s –

Anna: Yeah.

Parinita: That’s my experience or lack of experience with religion, I guess.

Anna: And I guess fantasy and fandom is an excellent space to do that. Because it allows for a lot of speculation and for a lot of expression of both the religion of the author or the content creator, but also of reading the work through a specific religious lens by the reader or the consumer.

Parinita: Yeah, absolutely. And I think growing up in India, there are so many different religions that personally I’ve been acquainted with. And I grew up reading a lot of British literature and some American literature. And I never thought of looking at it in a religious lens, really. Not until – like I know Narnia is now the sort of urtext of Christian parables and allegory. And I only discovered that a few years ago. So when I first read Narnia, I didn’t realise it was supposed to stand for anything. Even though I did grow up in a Catholic school, so I knew the tales and I knew the narratives. But that connection never made itself clear to me, I guess.

Anna: Me too, me too. I remember reading Narnia when I was about eight maybe and just completely missing all of the religious analogies. Even though I come from a non-religious household, but my mother was very invested in a classical education for me. So I did know a lot of the Bible stories, as kind of points of references rather than from a religious perspective. And even so I didn’t notice C. S. Lewis employing them. And the same really with all fandom texts that I’ve encountered. For instance, I wasn’t really aware of Tolkien’s Christianity until I became a teenager, an older teenager. I think I first heard of J. K. Rowling referring to herself as Christian in a documentary and I think it was the twentieth anniversary of Harry Potter documentary, so it’s quite recent.

Parinita: So I discovered fandom as a teenager and the first fan space that I discovered was this website called Mugglenet which was this Harry Potter dedicated resource. And I was so excited that there were other people who loved Harry Potter as much as me. And this was before all the books had been out. So I was still a teenager and I think only the four books had been out by then. Four or five. And I remember that there was an interview with J. K. Rowling. And the interviewer wanted to know what religion she followed because I think there were a lot of controversies, as one of the texts that we read outlined, about her books promoting Satanism and Wicca. And so I suppose that’s why the interviewer was curious. And she said that I don’t want to reveal my religion because if I do, then the plot of the final book will be really evident to readers – to really astute readers. It’ll be really clear to them what’s going to happen. Which I thought was very curious because it led to so many theories. You know when you don’t have the canon there, there were so many theories. And everyone had all these sorts of interpretations from all sorts of lenses, including atheism. Now that I’m more familiar with Christian theology and stories and narratives, I know that Harry stood for, like Aslan, stood for Jesus. Yeah so her Christianity was only evident to me through her conversations and not through the text itself. Since I did mention the controversies with Wicca and paganism and Satanism that Harry Potter had, how would you, in your life or your scholarship or whatever, how would you define Wicca? And witches? And paganism?

Anna: The term witch is incredibly loaded. Which makes it very rewarding and also frustrating to study. Where you have people who in the late medieval and early modern period prosecuted as witches for being allied with the devil, for being evil. Then witches as a female, feminist identity that’s reclaiming an independent, self-sufficient and powerful and intelligent woman. You have witches who are Wiccans. Who are followers of one of the first neo-pagan religions promoted by Gerald Gardner in the 1950s. And you’ve got witches who are spiritual individuals but who do not necessarily align themselves with Wicca strictly.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Anna: And I find that in Harry Potter, being a witch or a wizard very much doesn’t fit into any of those terms.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Anna: Because you don’t get any sense of pagan leanings within the books at all. In fact, one of J. K. Rowling’s tweets about religious diversity in Hogwarts explicitly mentions how the only religion she didn’t envisage as being part of the Hogwarts student body was Wicca. Which puzzled me at the time. But equally you don’t get a sense that these people who go to Hogwarts are heirs of the persecuted community of historical witches.

Screenshot of J. K. Rowling's tweets about religious diversity in Hogwarts. Text says: To everyone asking whether their religion/belief/non-belief system is represented at Hogwarts: the only people I never imagined there are Wiccans.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Anna: Neither do you get the sense that they have particular leanings towards activism or towards social movements.

Parinita: Or even a sense of community really. Because even within the witches and wizards in Hogwarts, there are so many different social, cultural, all these sorts of hierarchies. Not only within the humans but also you know like house elves, giants and … so even in terms of having a community of like-minded followers or adherents to a particular belief, that doesn’t really seem to be there.

Anna: Yeah so I was very surprised to see that Rowling’s books sparked this controversy around promoting Wicca as a bad thing, promoting Satanism as a bad thing. Because there’s really nothing there, apart from the word witch or wizard and apart from the idea of magic which is condemned by some fundamentalist Christian groups. And in terms of the internal religion of Hogwarts, that’s very, very Christian. They celebrate Christmas, they’ve got very Christian ethics. So not just the external religion in the context of which Rowling writes is Christianity, but also the wizards themselves can be conceived to be Christian.

Parinita: Yeah absolutely. And again, this is something that as someone who’s not familiar with these conversations and these contexts, it comes as such a surprise to me because when I was a kid and even later as a teenager, I knew that in the US, there were these groups that wanted to burn Harry Potter and were banning Harry Potter just because it promoted Wicca. Because of the word witch in it. And all the articles in India were really bemused because it was so alien to us. Of course we have book bannings as well but they’re for not the same reasons. And we would never think of banning Harry Potter for promoting Wicca. And then on your recommendation, I did watch “The Missionaries” episode of The Chilling Adventures of Sabrina just this afternoon actually. And how starkly Christianity was shown in opposition to Wicca there – again, that connection between the two was so evident to me only then. Because I’d heard about witch burning and stuff, of course, in the US and I think in the UK and Europe? I’m not sure. But I had heard about it through media, entirely through media. And for me, it had a much more gendered connotation than a religious one. Even though I knew that it was … well I suppose I vaguely knew that it was Christians burning witches as heretics. But because of the media that I consumed, to me it felt like it was because powerful women who live in this society that oppressed women. Which is why people were afraid of witches. Not because of their religious leanings but because of their gender and what they could do to someone who’d been oppressing them all their lives essentially. So yeah just in terms of Christianity versus Wicca, it was really interesting just because it’s something that I’d never thought of. Like in terms of where I’ve grown up.

Anna: Yeah I think there are sort of two things happening here. First of all there’s definitely this uneasy relationship between Christianity today and Wicca today based on the persecution of witches in the past who were not Wiccan because Wicca  didn’t exist. But –

Parinita: Yes.

Anna: Who are seen as ancestors of modern pagans. And then there is the reclamation of the term witch by second-wave feminists to mean this intelligent woman who’s being oppressed. And there is an interesting movement with the use of the acronym WITCH which expands to Women’s International Terrorist Conspiracy from Hell.

Parinita: [laughs]

Anna: Created in the late 1960s and for them, their motto is, “You are a witch by being female, untamed, angry, joyous and immoral. Immortal, sorry.” So it has very little to do with paganism and a lot to do with female agency.

Parinita: Hmm.

Anna: And I guess there’s this perception that both things – both paganism and female independence sit uneasily with traditional Christianity.

Parinita: So is Wicca a Western faith tradition then, would you say? Since I watched that episode, that’s really fresh in my mind. I was really interested in how it stands in contrast to other religions. Not just Christianity but other Western and Eastern religions. Because I don’t know, in India we have our own what would I guess be considered pagan. Again, I don’t know a lot of details about religion and I haven’t researched enough. But I suppose from a Western lens, it would be considered pagan or, like you were saying yesterday, indigenous. So you know things that probably, in Christianity, would be considered really not acceptable. So is Wicca then just Western based?

Anna: Yes. I absolutely would agree that Wicca is Western. Ronald Hutton says that Wicca is the only religion that England gave the world.

Parinita: [laughs]

Anna: Which I think is pretty accurate. Yes, it has grown and developed beyond England but the crux sort of seems to be in the UK. And at the moment, there seems to be a sort of divide between eclectic pagans who very much create new traditions and reimagine the past, and who tend to be Western or Anglo-centric or Euro-centric. And sort of revivalists who are people who are getting back in touch with their native or indigenous faith. They tend to be from colonised countries and cultures that are rediscovering a native faith that has been repressed by either Christian missionaries or by a colonising force. So they are in conversation with one another but they are sort of two poles of a spectrum.

Parinita: So then for a group of Wiccans, or for a group of pagans, would it be then like a political identity as well as a religious one? One of the texts that we looked at this time was the Woke Doctor Who episode of “Faith in the Whoniverse”. And one of the hosts, who’s a black American woman, spoke about how she didn’t recognise herself in Christianity. But she still had faith and she converted, I guess, or found the Orisha tradition from Africa which she really identified with politically as well as religiously because they were nature-based deities who looked like her. And so it was a very actively activist decision on her part.

Anna: I feel that yes, a lot of choices that pagans make are political as well as religious. It seems to be getting more prominent especially in relation to environmental activism and intersectionality. People see paganism as a more viable spirituality for a modern society.

Parinita: Hmm.

Anna: And as a more accepting spirituality. And indeed it is a lot more malleable than, for instance, Christianity which has just been around for a long period of time and has fossilized somewhat.

Parinita: Right. So we listened to two podcast episodes that dealt with Wicca, very personal interpretations of Wicca. Which was the Witch, Please episode as well as the Harry Potter and the Sacred Text episode. And that was my first introduction to proper Wicca, I suppose, just proper perspectives from people who were either familiar with it or who were non-practicing Wiccans. And I was unsure whether there was an intersectional analysis in Wicca. Because I know that in one of the episodes, in the Witch, Please one, they did say that the whole focus on menstruation – they didn’t want to make it transphobic, which is why they were trying not to have the focus so much on that. But then as somebody else said, it’s such a personal engagement with the faith that everyone has different engagements with it. So you know there’s no one catchall religion, I guess.

Anna: There is absolutely no one catchall religion. And in a way that’s a good thing because at the moment, since sort of the 90s, there are a lot of conversations around how a lot of the pagan traditions are very gender essentialist because of this view of nature and nature’s fertility as being very much binary with a union of the male and the female principle. And with the main worship deities being the god and the goddess. Which are not just socially masculine and feminine but are also very physically male and female. And as you mentioned, the focus on the female reproductive cycle or the stages of the female life – the triple goddess is represented as the maiden, the mother, and the crone. So where does that put women who are unable to have children or who have chosen not to? Luckily enough, certain Wiccan groups and communities and certain other pagan communities are finding ways to work around that by working with different deities or by viewing the male and female aspects as inherent in every individual.

Parinita: Hmm.

Anna: And it is the balance of the two or the intersection of the two that creates a harmonious person. As opposed to you representing one or the other.

Parinita: Ah. So another thing that I was thinking of just in terms of intersectionality … I know one of the people on the podcast, I think it was on the Witch, Please podcast, said that in terms of their belief and their perspective of Wicca, there is no fundamentally bad way to be a woman. And I understand that in terms of like they were, I think, talking about frivolousness versus femininity and like all ways of being a woman are acceptable. But then if I analysed it a bit further, it almost seemed to suggest that just by virtue of being a woman, you are … I mean you can’t be a bad woman I suppose. And I was thinking there are hierarchies even within women, right? Like just in terms of class and disability and which part of the world that you come from, what race you are, what … I suppose trans and non-binary folk as well. But like you said the gender essentialism is being countered. But even within the environmentalism movement, just because a lot of the Wiccan and pagan like not a lot – but a group of them do seem to be really actively trying to protect the environment as well. And with the environment movement as well, Extinction Rebellion was something that I was really fascinated with when it first started coming up and I was reading up about them and I was researching them and joined the group and everything. And I started getting this uncomfortable feeling. And then there were more articles about it and critiques about it later that it was very exclusionary to – not actively, they weren’t meaning to be – but they weren’t very inclusive to people who were not middle class, not white, not privileged in some way.

Anna: That’s ooof – there’s a lot to unpack there. Thank you for asking the challenging question. I think with what you said about is there a right and a wrong way of being a woman. I think we can bring that back to fandom and whether there’s a right and a wrong way for being a fan.

Parinita: Yeah that’s a very good point.

Anna: Yeah. We see the core idea be it feminism or being a fan or environmentalism as the defining trait of the people within the community.

Parinita: Hmm.

Anna: Often overlooking other areas of their beliefs, of their attitudes that might not be as positive or as palatable. And I also feel that we as a society really don’t take kindly to people’s complexity. That you can’t be all good. There will always be, unfortunately, a side of your life where you’re not as educated, not as aware and not as considerate as you perhaps could have been. But that need not condemn you entirely. And especially I feel with Extinction Rebellion, I also am very much interested in their work. But to give an example, their push for civil disobedience and their push for arrests, a lot of people can’t afford to be arrested, especially –

Parinita: Exactly.

Anna: Ethnic minorities, especially if they’re from less privileged backgrounds. However, this can be slightly flipped on its head by saying well only people who are considered privileged in this society are going to take that risk.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Anna: And those are the voices that we are putting up there and making them heard. The importance here I feel is to give a different platform and a different way of activism to people who are unable to get arrested or uncomfortable doing it.

Parinita: No, I absolutely agree. I think that the conversation is what’s more important than just – first of all the awareness that this is a problem. But I think that awareness is there now and it’s … with everything like with fandom as well. There was a huge conversation in fandom about the race blindness of fandom and the racism within some parts of fandom as well. Which again, people may not, like you were saying, they may not be educated enough or they don’t know enough. For me, it’s an ongoing process of learning and unlearning social conditioning in different aspects of my identity. And also unlearning the colonised brain that I have thanks to growing up in India and consuming largely Western media. But yeah for sure, I think the conversations are important. And do you think these conversations are happening on the Wiccan side as well? Or on the pagan side as well?

Anna: I think they are but there can always be more that’s done.

Parinita: Yeah.

Anna: And I wish that these conversations had a slightly more far-reaching platform. Because a lot of the times from what I’ve encountered, they happen at conventions and at meetings. But so many pagans don’t have a community and so much interaction happens online.

Parinita: Hmm.

Anna: And I feel that it’s online in spaces that slip under the radar –

Parinita: Yeah.

Anna: That you can have a lot of these problematic discourses still circulating.

Parinita: Hmm.

Anna: And I feel that it’s the same with fandom.

Parinita: Absolutely.

Anna: With things like Comic Con, everyone is lovely for the most part and people try to be considerate and people try to raise awareness. And then you go to a Reddit thread and –

Parinita: [laughs] Yeah.

Anna: It’s a lot of weird creatures.

Parinita: But also I suppose you do have – at least I have the tendency of creating my bubble, like safe space within everywhere that I go online. Because I know that even on places like The Guardian’s Facebook articles, if I go read the comments, I’ll just spiral into this “Why am I doing this to myself?!” Because you would think even with a space like that, it would be fairly okay, but nope! Nope! It’s not okay; you shouldn’t go there unless you want to, I don’t know, fight with random strangers. But fandom is the same. And I guess with religion and faith and Wicca, it would be the same. That you don’t actively seek out negativity, I guess. Or antagonism. And the conversations would be more fruitful if there was, like you were saying, a larger platform for the community.

Anna: It’s difficult to know when your safe space becomes an echo chamber.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Anna: And where that boundary lies. A couple of years back, I pitched a topic for the Tolkien Society Seminar in Leeds. And my topic was Tolkien the Pagan? Question mark. Reading Middle-earth through a spiritual lens. And I was trying to promote a conversation about non-Christian interpretations of Tolkien’s work. Because the Christian view is so prevalent that there seems to be no space for much else and I was trying to create that space. And the Call for Papers was accepted and I was warned whether I was prepared for the consequences

Parinita: [laughs]

Anna: And I sort of laughed it off at the time.

Parinita: Oh dear.

Anna: And within the first couple of days, on Facebook, that post had over two hundred comments. Most of them very aggressively denouncing the choice of topic saying that Tolkien’s texts are Christian only. That if you are a non-Christian reader, you can’t possibly understand what he is getting at and what Middle-earth is all about.

Parinita: Wow.

Anna: Which, to me, was quite jarring. And I was quite taken aback at the vehemence with which these people defended or claimed the texts for a specific group of people. But, on the other hand, if I didn’t encounter that, I wouldn’t have known that such a large percentage of people who consider themselves fans have this sort of reaction.

Parinita: No, absolutely. And it’s just I suppose this perceived assault against – not only in fandom, in religion as well – like when you are the dominant group but there’ll be one lone voice, like in your case your Call for Papers, that offers another interpretation of either the religion or just another religion or a fan theory or whatever. And how this creates this really uncomfortable feeling, I guess, among the dominant group. And it leads to so many different kinds of violence and oppression. In your case, it wasn’t physical violence and it wasn’t oppression I guess; but it was trying to silence any dissent or any interpretation that doesn’t match your own. And it was something that like with Harry Potter and the whole fundamentalist Christian furore against it, it’s the fact that in the US, Christianity forms the structure of a lot of their country and media and culture. And in India, it would be Hinduism. But just like in the US, in other parts of the world, and in India currently, the majority religion is feeling this threat by religions that are so much smaller in their countries. But the way that they’re responding to it is really – that’s what I find really scary. And it’s really dangerous. And in your case luckily there’s been no – I mean you know the two hundred comments I hope were –

Anna: No, I got off lightly.

Parinita: Yeah. Not to diminish the feelings that you must have had. But I’m reading this book about the alt-right culture online and I have a very nice, optimistic view of the internet because that’s been my experience so far. Again, my safe space is very much constructed and deliberate. So I have a really nice experience online. But I know that a lot of women online don’t. And in your case, I wonder if it was … I suppose with the CFP, they wouldn’t know who put out the CFP – the Call for Papers.

Anna: Yeah, luckily they didn’t.

Parinita: Yeah. Because –

Anna: They mostly pinned it on the Society which was that one step removed and that was helpful.

Parinita: Yeah but that’s another thing – it’s not just oppression of one, if you’re a woman, it’s so much worse for everything.

Anna: Yeah. And in fandom, especially, you can see how arbitrary these distinctions and these prejudices sometimes are. Because sometimes people will defend the canon until the cows come home. And sometimes people will defend their own idea of what the show is supposed to be like against the actual showrunners and the cast. And I’m thinking here about the announcement of Jodie Whitaker as the … Thirteenth Doctor? [asks hesitantly]

Parinita: Uh huh yeah. [laughs]

Anna: Got the numbers right.

Parinita: [laughs]

Anna: And the backlash that she got. Whereas that’s canon. That is a showrunner decision. Therefore, surely all of us canon-loving people should make peace with that as a natural progression of the show. But unfortunately it seems that people are very, very fixed in what they want to be the truth.

Parinita: But also fixed in a very certain way that only privileges their group of people, I guess. So speaking of, just because something that you’d mentioned earlier, the religious diversity in Hogwarts where one of the things that we read was The Guardian article about J. K. Rowling’s tweets about the “very evident”, according to her, religious diversity in Hogwarts. But as she mentioned and as others have mentioned since, Anthony Goldstein, I think, is the only Jewish character. And it’s like his presence doesn’t really – it’s the exception that proves the rule, right? Christianity, as you said, is the framework of Hogwarts too. And Anthony Goldstein’s Jewishness has nothing – there’s no mention of it in the text. It’s like Dumbledore being gay, there’s no mention of that in the text itself. So I feel like there were so many – I suppose not missed opportunities … but there was a lot of room for exploration in terms of the religious diversity in Hogwarts. Which I think fandom could be doing but it’s not something that is evident in the series at all.

Anna: Yeah. Perhaps it’s a bit too late for the series because I feel that the majority of backlash against J. K. Rowling was because she refused to acknowledge that the texts were done and the texts were fallible. But when she wrote them, diversity – whether it be sexual, ethnic or religious diversity – wasn’t really on the forefront of everyone’s minds as it is now. And that’s all right in a way. She could not have written different books being who she was and who she is now.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Anna: But adaptations of the Harry Potter series can be different, can be diverse. And that’s very much the conversation currently happening against the upcoming Lord of the Rings on Prime adaptation where the announced cast is very racially diverse. And the question is how the showrunners are going to deal with that and interpret that. And how will it differ from what we suppose Tolkien’s own vision of Middle-earth was. Which presumably, based on the time when he was writing, was white and straight. To come back to your question about the lack of exploration of religious diversity in fandom, I’m quite surprised by how little people engage with that as far as I’ve seen. I haven’t really seen a lot of fanfiction or fan art that provides meaningful interpretations of characters as religious. Maybe because of this stigma in some young social groups in some corners of fandom, of religions – any kind of religion – being very oppressive and very anti-fantasy.

Parinita: Hmm.

Anna: Um so yeah.

Parinita: Which actually that reminds me. I had I think come across a Tumblr post about how Muslim students would celebrate Ramzan in Hogwarts. In terms of when they celebrate Eid, the fasting, and how they’d have to talk to the house elves and you know have arrangements for –

Anna: I’ve seen that. It’s a good post.

Screenshot of Tumblr post by bertiebottsbigbean. Text says: why don't we talk about muslim kids in hogwarts during ramadan? imagine waking up at 3 every morning and walking down for suhoor, to find the house elves have prepared a feast for them. imagine the kids having an extended curfew, so they can go and eat iftar at 10, where the house elves once again provide a ten course meal, topped with dates and traditional delicacies from around the world. imagine the kids being allowed to go into the kitchens in the middle of the night if they were still in the mood to eat. imagine the kids being allowed to leave class to do their prayers, and sending lunch times to read the quran. we need to talk more about muslim kids in hogwarts.

Parinita: Yeah, yeah. So you’re right, it’s very limited. But I think in fandom, there is an opportunity – and I haven’t gone looking for religiously diverse texts really. But I just think that the diversity, especially in a text like Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings or Doctor Who which has such a global appeal, which has fans from so many different parts of the world and cultures and religions and everything, there is so much more room for exploring diverse aspects. And even in Doctor Who, in the Woke Doctor Who episode, they mentioned that ever since Jodie’s run, there have been more episodes that have focused on different faiths. And they wonder whether it is not only because there’s a diverse cast now, but there’s also more diverse creators in the writing room. And that’s what leads to more diversity. Like the other text that we looked at the interview with the Malaysian British writer Zen Cho, and how she was saying that – which is true and it’s something that I hadn’t really until someone pointed it out, I hadn’t realised it – that a lot of Western fantasy is very Christian and it’s the sort of fantasy that is global now. We all have our brains shaped by Western fantasy traditions. So like Game of Thrones, Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter. And everything else is othered and everything else is exoticised or even denigrated depending on who’s doing the writing. And the fact that there are now more diverse voices – because diversity is so interesting, right? Not just for people from marginalised religions who see their practices there and feel this sense of recognition but also for people from dominant religions who have always been seeing the same kind of texts. And now they have an opportunity to read something different and to learn something different, I guess.

Anna: Yeah. I absolutely agree with you there. And I think that the othering of the non-Judeo-Christian framework is doing more harm than the texts themselves that are written within a dominant Christian context. Because that episode that you’re referring to, it’s Breaking the Glass Slipper non-Western magic episode. And the crux of the discussion there is that the texts even when written through a Christian lens, when written well enough, do offer other ways of interpreting them. Do offer other spiritual reference points that don’t necessarily require an explicit mention of, oh that character is Muslim or creation of an internal magic or spiritual system that actively references a non-Western religion. But we are not used to reading them that way.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Anna: And I think that fandom spaces are a good place to introduce the habit of reading texts through multiple spiritual lenses.

Parinita: No, absolutely. Currently in fandom, a lot of conversation about diversity seems to be focused on race. So currently for me, it’s me unlearning seeing white as normative and trying to see … make my brain more diverse, I guess. Trying to accept more diversity within the characters that I read. But you’re so right in terms of religion as well. Now if I go back to a lot of the media that I watch as well, Christianity is so much the framework. And it’s something that I just took for granted really. I didn’t stop to consider because, like you’re saying, I don’t know how to read it through a different spiritual tradition even though I come from a different religious – not personally religious but culturally, I come from such a different tradition. Another one of the episodes that we were listening to, the Imaginary Worlds episode about “Faith in Fantasy”, featured different religious leaders. So there was a Rabbi, there was a Minister and there was an Alwaez – a Muslim leader. And they talked about how they read similar science fiction and fantasy texts, the really popular ones, based on their own faith traditions. So they read it through a Muslim lens or a Jewish lens or a Christian lens and I found that fascinating. Because I’ve never read anything through a Hindu lens, not really. And is that something you find that you do? Your Call for Papers was about Tolkien and paganism so you did actively look or try to look for paganism in Tolkien. Is that something you find that you have to do or something that comes really easily to you?

Anna: I try to. I think I fail more than I’m comfortable admitting. Because a lot of very Christian concepts that I have internalised, I don’t necessarily recognise as Christian. For instance, I have a very strong sense of sin and virtue as these two opposing forces. And human characters in fantasy are necessarily sinful and the sort of benevolent elves, supernatural creatures, magician characters are necessarily virtuous. Which again, is a very, very Christian divide. But through hard work and self-abasement, you can achieve a modicum of virtue and atone for your sin. And that needs to be challenged as much as the more overt links to Christianity. When trying to read things explicitly through a pagan lens, I often get frustrated because I find a lot of the references that are thought to be pagan are to this witchcraft-light social movement that has very little to do with spirituality and has a fairly little understanding of what being Wiccan or being pagan actually entails. For instance, the Chilling Adventures of Sabrina are an endless fount of frustration for me.

Parinita: [laughs]

Anna: Because they’re not witches! They’re Satanists!

Parinita: That’s what I –! I mean when I was watching this episode – I’ve had this show on my radar for quite awhile and this episode was quite an episode to begin with, to introduce yourself to, [laughs] because it was very much Christianity versus Satanism. Because they’re following Lucifer, I believe. I don’t know … they called him the Dark Lord. But yeah they’re following Lucifer, and they consider god – the Christian god – to be the false god? Like it’s a very binary opposition. So yeah.

Anna: First of all, I don’t see anything wrong with Satanism. It’s its own thing with interesting ideas.

Parinita: Yeah.

Anna: But I feel that by calling a religion that is so explicitly against Christianity witchcraft, as they do in the show, they’re promoting some quite entrenched and quite erroneous ideas about what witchcraft, Wicca, paganism actually is. I know people who identify as both pagan and Christian, specifically Roman Catholic. And there seems to be a way to enmesh those two religions. Plus [sighs] really I don’t think I’ve ever met a pagan who was actively dismissive of Christianity as a fake or false religion. Sure as a social structure, it has its own problems but so do all religious and spiritual movements. And also the attributes that the Church of Night in The Chilling Adventures of Sabrina uses are often very misogynistic, often very aggressive. No, we do not actually eat children.

Parinita: [laughs]

Anna: No, there are no blood sacrifices. Just let me hug a tree in the woods somewhere.

Parinita: [laughs]

Anna: And I understand that it makes for a nice, visually compelling show. But unfortunately it is a very inaccurate representation of paganism as a group of faiths.

Parinita: Again, that’s something I would not have thought of until you just said it. Because it is like not taking Wicca or Wiccans or witches seriously as their own faith and as their own religion. Because like you’re saying, it makes for a good show and it makes for a good story-line. But you would not have Muslims, for example, or Hindus or you know any other non-Western religion or even a Western one. Like Jewish people. You wouldn’t have them the way that Wiccans are presented on the TV show. So it’s almost like you’re using another religion just as set dressing, as just this sort of fun cultural anomaly. For the people who are writing and for the mainstream who’s watching, it’s just fantasy. And it’s not a real religion that a lot of people follow.

Anna: Yes. And it’s interesting where that divide lies between scare quotes “real religions” and “made-up religions”.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Anna: Because fantasy is quite rich in both. And paganism seems to be somewhere in the middle where in Harry Potter you use the language of witchcraft without any kind of spiritual underpinning. They perform spells, they make potions, but there’s no sense that it’s an act of worship or an act of spiritual transaction. And in shows like Supernatural, you have a Christian framework with angels and demons and god is somewhere out there. But I feel it’s a lot less willing to cross certain boundaries. Like you wouldn’t have … Dean and … Sam and Dean, there we go!

Parinita: [laughs]

Anna: Sam and Dean walk up to heaven and sort of have a chat with god over a beer.

Parinita: Hmm.

Anna: Because it’s not that kind of show. There are some boundaries there that prevent them from doing that. Whereas I feel that with paganism, because it isn’t counted as a real religion in many cases, there are no boundaries like that. There’s nothing protecting the sacred aspects of paganism.

Parinita: Hmm. And when you said made-up religion, it made me think – I always have this vague … not daydream, I guess, but vague thought. If we have the apocalypse, we have a lot of reasons for that like the climate, religion, I don’t know so many different things. And far into the future, if there are descendants of humans or whoever or aliens or whatever, they find our – whatever texts that they do, and whatever media, paraphernalia whatever – and what will they think that our beliefs and our religions and our worldview was based on what they find? Because currently popular culture seems to have such a grip on a lot of people. In fact in the Imaginary Worlds episode that we listened to, the Rabbi, she did say that popular culture stories almost seem to have replaced religion for a lot of people in terms of the stories that we tell each other. And a lot of mainstream religions that we see today like Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, they’re thousands of years old. And they were at some point made up. Like someone did make the texts that we see now. And two thousand years from now, we don’t know what religions are going to survive, what is going to replace the religions that are so mainstream now. Like that fascinating paper that you sent me about Tolkien spirituality which – I’d never heard of it. But when I was reading the paper, there are so many parallels with religion that already exists now in terms of … they have a canon, they have the book that they read, they have a lot of metaphors, they have a lot of faith that they place on some elements and some aspects of the books. And like you were saying, there are some people who believe that their reading of the books is the only correct reading. And everyone who doesn’t follow the religion is not understanding the books correctly. Right?

Anna: Yeah, absolutely. And you’ve got things like people being inspired by Tolkien. Especially The Silmarillion and the creation of Middle-earth and the Valar to have their own religious groups. And things like Jedis and people seeing philosophies portrayed in Star Wars as religions. I think that even without these explicit examples of adapting fantasy into faith, we already believe in fantasy much more than we think we do. Firstly because fantasy leads us to faith. If you think about Doctor Who and how much faith his companions – his or her companions place in the Doctor. If you think about the trope of the Chosen One, who is infallible, and we as readers place our faith in that character. Because we know the formula. We know that in the end, they are going to overcome whatever difficulties are thrown their way. Is that enough to supplant more conventional religions? I don’t know. But it’s an interesting question.

Parinita: Yeah for sure. And so Harry Potter and the Sacred Text, it has a lot of engagements with spiritual leaders. So some of the episodes that we listened to, there were Reverends and Rabbis and just even scholars of religious studies. And a lot of the things they were saying, I found so many similarities between religion and fandom. Because for me as a non-religious person, a lot of the things that religious people seem to find in religion, I found in fandom. And just people who like the same things that I do. So that finding that sense of community, and you know even having rituals based around your favourite things and going on pilgrimages as well. It’s something that I never thought of as – I know religious people go on pilgrimages but then if I go to something that’s Harry Potter related or if I go to something that’s related to the movies or something that I like, a TV show, that is a pilgrimage in a way. It is me going there because I love this thing so much. Canon as well. All these debates about what counts as canon. Like in Judaism, Rabbi Scott Perlo I believe, he was talking about how there is a debate between some people what they consider to be canon. So that made me think of fandom as well. The more conservative fans and adherents who think that the original text is the only canon that’s acceptable. And there can be no deviation to it. So like what you said with Lord of the Rings and the Christian interpretation. Or with Doctor Who even with just the white, male Doctor being the only acceptable Doctor. Whereas on the other side, you have the more progressive sort of believers, I guess, who are open to canon being disrupted and expanded and just who like there being more of the thing they love. And have more to look at.

Anna: Yeah, absolutely. And fandom not only functions very much as a spiritual movement, it also inherits a lot of the language of one. You mentioned pilgrimages. A lot of fans will have shrines of their favourite book or show paraphernalia. Canon can also be interpreted as a religious term.

Parinita: Metaphors as well. Like you know in terms of metaphors for real-world social and political issues. So fandom does that with texts, like Harry Potter or Doctor Who. But also with religion, like even though these texts were written two thousand years or more ago, you’re still trying to make it relevant to today’s contexts. Or at least I think at least successful religion, that’s what they should be doing. Like I was telling you about this article that I read about this radical church in the US. And they made social justice the framework of their church. I’m going to link to that in the transcript of this episode. But they just meet together and they read things like Marx and feminist theory and also religion, like extracts from the Bible. And they all connect it together. It’s almost like getting an education, right? For me, that’s what fandom is. Just learning to look at things through different lenses that I wouldn’t have otherwise. Community, just coming together, and meeting people that you wouldn’t otherwise have met and they might not be … like you were saying the echo chamber. It’s a way for me to get out of my echo chamber a bit because we’re coming around a community because we all love this thing. But we’re coming from so many different backgrounds and so many different perspectives. And perhaps even political leanings. And it makes it more interesting, I think.

 

Photograph of a church pamphlet. Cover text says: Jubilee Baptist Church. Love as if a different world is possible.

Picture from the Jubilee Baptist Church referenced above. Image courtesy BuzzFeed

Anna: Absolutely. And I think it’s very valuable to have a community that is so diverse both nationally, ethnically, religiously but also in terms of education and lifestyle and professional careers. Where those things also greatly impact outlooks on the world and ways we see current knowledge. And fandom is this unifying force that allows us to explore new ways of finding information while also always being able to bring it back to that community, bring it back to that thing that’s familiar and that’s safe and that we love. Which is why it’s so important that we protect the fandom space and maintain it as accessible and as welcoming to everyone.

Parinita: Yeah, absolutely. I agree. And I think that that’s what to me currently is most exciting with fandom. So, like I said, I discovered fandom first as a thirteen-year-old with Mugglenet. And I used to read Harry Potter fanfiction and I used to write Harry Potter fanfiction. But now what really excites me is all the critical commentary and the fan works that are around it. In the Harry Potter and the Sacred Text episode with Reverend Broderick Greer, he said, “Who in our culture is imagined out of stories? And who needs to reimagine themselves back into them?” He was talking about religion but he was also talking about fandom. Because in religion as well, with Christianity, with all religions I think, Hinduism as well. They are written in a very patriarchal way and Hinduism is very upper caste. So a specific group of privileged people. With Christianity I don’t know if it was white men because it was in the Middle East but privileged people nonetheless. Or at least now they’ve gained a sense of status. And now it is mostly white men who are adherents to the religion [Editor’s note: I meant in control]. But it was written to privilege just a certain group of people but there were so many other voices that were not – like of women, of different races, classes, you know even religions. And now there is more of an effort within both religion and within fandom to highlight these marginalised voices and to actively look for these voices so that even if the canon itself has a lot of blind spots and it has a lot of missing gaps, fans and followers are now working to fix these gaps. And I love that.

Anna: Yeah. And this notion of reading certain groups of people back into stories speaks to the idea of re-enchantment of the world that’s been loosely going on since the 70s. And is this drive to see the world as more intersectional, as more holistic, acknowledging that no group of people has primacy over others. That humanity as a species does not have primacy over non-human animals, over the natural world in general. And a more magical view of the world that allows us to maintain our identity while also entertaining all of these other ways of being in the world.

Parinita: Yeah and just even with science fiction and fantasy, I completely agree with you. It allows us to imagine a different world; allows us to question, really, things, the way that they are and allows us then to imagine possibilities as well. Which I think in religion, in fandom, in fantasy, that’s a really good thing for me to take from them.

Anna: Yeah, absolutely.

Parinita: Thank you so much, Anna, for talking to me about your faith and about religion. I have learned so much from our conversation. My brain is so full of ideas and I just want to go back to Harry Potter and now read it through a religious lens and find out all the ways that – maybe I can write more fanfiction now. Maybe I can go back to my thirteen-year-old [laughs] skills and you know write fanfiction from a religious lens.

Anna: Thank you so much. It’s been an incredible pleasure. And good luck with your project!

Parinita: Thank you!

[Outro music]

You’ve been listening to our episode on representations of religion in media. You can listen to the first two episodes of Marginally Fannish wherever you find your podcasts. Thanks again Anna for being a part of this project and for expanding my brain in so many different ways. Religion is not something I think about too often and you had such a refreshing and illuminating perspective to share. And thanks as always to Jack for helping me with the editing.

You can now listen to Marginally Fannish on SpotifyAppleGoogle, or SoundCloud. I’d love to hear from you and talk to you – so any feedback, comments or critiques are very welcome! Get in touch with me on social media, leave a comment on my blog, or email me at edps@leeds.ac.uk. If you’d like to follow the podcast or the PhD project, visit my website marginallyfannish.org where you’ll find both the podcast episodes and the blog. You can also receive updates on Facebook or Instagram at Marginally Fannish or on Twitter where I’m @MarginalFannish. If you enjoyed the podcast, please share it with anyone you think will enjoy it too.

Thanks for listening! Tune in again next time for all things fannish and intersectional!

Episode 2 Failure of Imagination: Representations of Race in Media and Fandom – Part 2

This is Part Two of the episode. Go here to listen to/read Part One.

Episode Resources:

For this episode, we looked at the following texts:

Fan podcast – Episode 21 of The Gayly Prophet “Clearly, Hermione is Black: An Interview with Prerna Abbi-Scanlon and Tahirah Green” 

Fan podcast – Episode 165 of Black Girl Nerds “Racebending and Whitewashing in Media”

Fan podcast – Episode 18 of Woke Doctor Who “Sweep Your Own Yard”

Doctor Who episode “Rosa”

 

Episode Transcript: 

This is a clean transcript of the episode. If you would prefer the original, unedited version, please let me know!

[Intro music]

Welcome to Marginally Fannish, a show where we aim an intersectional lens at some of our favourite media and their fandoms.

[Intro music]

You’re listening to the second part of our episode on race and representation. As three Indian fangirls of mostly Western media (but also Bollywood!), we have a LOT of thoughts about this episode’s theme. We didn’t want to stop talking, which is why we divided this episode into two parts.

In this part, we talk about how incredibly amazing the internet, social media, and fandom have been in helping us decolonise our minds by allowing us access to diverse experiences and perspectives we otherwise wouldn’t have encountered. We chat about whitewashing media and religion both in India and the West. Then we discuss racebending both in fandom and in canon. We wonder whether the magical world was involved in the British Muggle world domination project. We geek out about exciting Doctor Who developments (spoiler alert for those who aren’t caught up with episode 5 of the 12th series). We discuss what representation means to us as fans who aren’t white. We express our love for an increasingly diverse canon in different kinds of media, but we also stress the importance of authentic, nuanced, and respectful portrayals of diversity. We discuss what our vision about the future in science fiction and alternative worlds in fantasy says about our attitudes towards marginalised groups around us in the real world. We end Part Two with our suggestions for how Hogwarts can (and should!) decolonise its curriculum.

Happy listening!

[Intro music]

Parinita: So this brings me to a section that is really interesting just because of the impact it has on popular culture at large. Which is whitewashing and racebending. So we listened to a podcast episode, a Black Girl Nerds episode called “Racebending and Whitewashing in Media”. Had you guys come across the term whitewashing before?

Aparna: Yes. Whitewashing is where a retelling of a story that wouldn’t necessarily have white people, when it is told to a larger audience, happens to have only white people. Or like a story that does not necessarily need to be told by white people or shouldn’t be, is being told in a very – completely negating the experiences of more marginalised voices. And the most striking example of it, which they mentioned in the podcast, is well is that of Jesus.

Parinita: Yeah [laughs]

Aparna: [laughs] They listed out all the actors who’d played Jesus and it was all white people, one after the other. It was quite funny.

Parinita: But I never even thought of Jesus as anybody except not white. Like I went to a Catholic school in India and all the portraits of Mother Mary and Jesus and you know all the saints and everything – all of them were white. And it’s only recently that, just through conversations online, again because the internet is the most fantastic educational resource, it was like, yeah he was – first of all, he was Jewish because he literally started the religion.

Aparna: Yeah.

Parinita: And he was Middle Eastern so he would be brown.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: And this is just such a disruptive notion to just what we think of as Jesus. And then it starts making you think what other aspects of history or mythology have been whitewashed, you know?

Aparna: Exactly!

Sanjana: But see if you’re basing it on Indian things, then everything like supreme is white only for us.

Parinita: [laughs] That’s true. Fair and Lovely everywhere.

Sanjana: Yeah, everywhere. Like we are having a constant battle by trying to tell colourists who are colouring our comics, to tell them that you know this guy is from this region. He would look not this white. And they say, “But hero, sir. Hero? Hero, madam.” Because the hero can just not be anything else but white.

Parinita: But I mean it’s not just the West though that has a hold on whitewashing their gods. We also have like plenty of whitewashing of our Hindu gods and goddesses.

Sanjana: Yeah, yeah. All our gods have been portrayed like whatever live-action stuff has happened, is all like by these white-looking men. Whereas Krishna literally means dark.

Parinita: [laughs]

Sanjana: Like it’s as dark as the dark clouds. Like it means dark.

Aparna: But we don’t make them dark, we make them blue.

Sanjana: Yeah. Okay rain clouds are not dark clouds, they’re blue clouds.

Parinita: [laughs]

Aparna: We can’t have a dark-skinned person.

Parinita: Exactly! Like what would that mean having a dark person like – only upper caste. How can we have a non-upper caste actor –

Aparna: We’ll invent a new skin colour for them.

Parinita: [laughs] Yeah like blue, natural skin colour in –

Aparna: Asphyxiation.

Parinita: Yeah!

Sanjana: [laughs]

Parinita: And also like Ranveer Sharma in Gully Boy like sorry to move from mytho – oh from religion and mythology to Bollywood.

Sanjana: Singh! Ranveer Singh!

Parinita: Hmm? Ranveer Singh! Oh Shar – who’s Ranveer Sharma? I don’t –

Aparna: There is no such person.

Parinita: I’m sure there is.

Aparna: Unless there’s a different Bollywood in Leeds.

Parinita: [laughs] Ranveer Sharma, if you’re listening to this, please prove everybody else wrong. And you exist. I believe in you.

Aparna: [laughs]

Parinita: So Ranveer Singh in Gully Boy, he had his skin darkened because he was playing someone who was Muslim and also from the slums in Mumbai. So from Dharavi. So of course why wouldn’t you get an actor from the slums or from a … lower … caste background? I don’t like saying lower. But you know non-upper. This is like the whole non-white situation again like –

Aparna: [laughs]

Parinita: Positioning it against yeah I don’t know we need to come up with a word. Maybe that could be our task for next episode. But yeah just from a non-dominant religion and caste. And why would you do that? We should just darken –

Movie poster of Gully Boy

Sanjana: But the same thing happened with the Mary Kom movie as well, now that we’re talking about Bollywood. They cast Priyanka Chopra in it and made her look a little bit like she was from –

Aparna: North Eastern.

Sanjana: The North East. But why not find – there is a whole cinema happening there. There are a whole bunch of actors available.

Parinita: And they’re so underrepresented in our –

Sanjana: Yeah!

Parinita: Mainstream Indian media and culture.

Sanjana: You had a chance to represent them! You had a chance!

Photo of Priyanka Chopra on the left and Mary Kom on the right

Priyanka Chopra and Mary Kom. Image courtesy The Economic Times

Parinita: Yeah but let’s just get Priyanka Chopra. Maybe she’ll get her husband to watch it as well and maybe it’ll get popular in Hollywood.

Sanjana: Oh tabhi she didn’t have husband at that time haan.

Parinita: Oh didn’t? Maybe they were dating. I don’t know her life. I’m not obsessed with Priyanka Chopra like you Sana! [laughs]

Aparna: Sana is trying to situate you correctly –

Sanjana: I’m situating you correctly –

Aparna: On Priyanka Chopra’s life.

Parinita: I mean Sana is the resident Priyanka Chopra fangirl.

Sanjana: No! I don’t want to say that. I’ve disliked them greatly after like … anyway –

Aparna: Oh!

Sanjana: That’s a wholly different – yeah, yeah.

Aparna: No, no say it.

Sanjana: No, I can’t.

Aparna: After she turned out to be a Modi supporter.

Sanjana: [laughs] Yeah.

Parinita: So another example of whitewashing that is very close to our hearts is … even though it technically is a cartoon. So Avatar: The Last Airbender, it’s very Asian! Like it’s the setting, even though it’s made up, it’s very Buddhist, Eastern-Asian and you know like it’s very –

Sanjana: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Without a doubt.

Parinita: But, of course, when Mr. M. Night Shyamalan decided to make a live-action remake, which Sana has warned both Paru and me against watching.

Aparna: [laughs]

Parinita: Because as much as we love the TV show, she wants to protect us from the terribleness that was the movie. But he betrayed desi people and Asian people everywhere and he just cast everyone as white. Except Zuko who is Dev Patel. But otherwise everyone else is white. So that was where the term racebending came from. Because you know airbending, waterbending – benders. And that’s where racebending came from. So it started very negatively but –

Avatar: The Last Airbender characters in the movies versus the TV show. Image courtesy Ashworth’s Film Reviews

Sanjana: I love the word and the origin.

Parinita: Racebending? Yeah. Like I love it I mean if it was negative, I probably wouldn’t have liked it as much. But why I like it is because fandom is such a creative, innovative force that they decided to make it an empowering term.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: And they have responded to texts that are canonically very white. And they’ve racebent. So like black Hermione, for example, in Harry Potter

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: A huge swathe of the fandom considers Hermione as black and also considers Harry as South Asian.

Fan art of Indian Harry Potter, black Hermione Granger, and Ron Weasley

Racebending Harry and Hermione in fan art. Image courtesy Inverse

Aparna: Yeah!

Parinita: Like Harry is a desi guy because James Potter I believe is supposed to be Indian, so Harry would be like a mixed-race kid.

Sanjana: Oooh!

Parinita: And again, that would be such an exciting sort of – then you’re thinking of things like why is James Potter Indian and like you know imperialism and … was there imperialism in the wizarding world? Wizarding is also a very gendered term. But anyway. Was there imperialism in the magical world that we –

Sanjana: Yeah.

Aparna: I mean wizarding world exists parallel to our own, no?

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: But do you think they were involved in colonising India? In colonising Africa?

Aparna: For sure!

Parinita: The rest of the world?

Sanjana: Unfortunately.

Aparna: Without a doubt.

Parinita: Where did Parvati and Padma’s parents come from? Like why are they in the UK? It would be very interesting to –

Sanjana: Many people went there to study and all.

Parinita: Sure.

Sanjana: Some people stayed there. Haan that only.

Parinita: Yeah, yeah. There’s no other reason. We like chicken tikka masala, sure.

[Aparna and Sanjana laugh]

Sanjana: No but also like you’re saying, they’ve taken it and made it like a positive thing. Like the episode that you’re mentioning also mentioned like Nick Fury being cast as black. Whereas the comics had him as a white male character.

Parinita: Oh really?

Sanjana: Yeah.

Image of Nick Fury from the comics and from the movies

Nick Fury in the comics versus the movies. Image courtesy Reddit

Parinita: Another thing. So the new exciting Doctor who we know almost nothing about.

Sanjana: Yes!

Parinita: So one of the fan theories was – because she’s this really mysterious Doctor right? So one of the fan theories is that she might pre-date the Doctor – the first Doctor that we know of which was the 1960s Doctor whose name I don’t know. And there was some trauma that happened that made her lose her memories. And that’s why Jodie doesn’t remember her. Nobody has remembered this previous incarnation. So there might be this whole cycle of Doctors that we don’t know about. So it’s almost like racebending canon in a way. Like which has been such a –

Aparna: Haan.

Parinita: White, male … all the Doctors have been white and men and now there’s a woman. One sole woman that we have and now we have another woman and we don’t know what’s happening.

Aparna: Yeah.

Parinita: But I love this potential like all these possibilities that could exist.

Aparna: Exactly! And it’s sort of cooler that it pre-dates all of these other Doctors because that means like before any of them existed, there was this one.

Photo of the two female Doctors - Jodie Whittaker and Jo Martin

The Doctor and Doctor Ruth image courtesy The Metro

Parinita: Absolutely. And also like she is older, she’s not as young as the other Doctors. I mean Peter Capaldi was pretty old but she like usually you think of women and there’ll be like a young woman like most of the companions were young women.

Aparna: Yeah, of course.

Parinita: And she’s older, she’s black, she’s a woman. Even though like you know I’m not black, I was so excited to see her! I was like oh my god

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: Representation! We need so little!

Aparna: Yeah exactly.

Parinita: Like we’ve been so starved of representation that –

Aparna: I know!

Parinita: Even the tiniest things make us so happy.

Aparna: Like when the – the reveal of Jodie Whitaker as the Doctor happened, there was this video that I kept encountering of this little girl whose mother was filming her watching the reveal. And she just burst into tears because she was so happy. “There’s going to be a girl Doctor!” she kept yelling. And it was just the most adorable thing.

Parinita: I mean watching Wonder Woman for me like that made me cry so much.

Aparna: Yeah!

Sanjana: Yeah!

Parinita: Just because it was so not male gazey and it was very much like a woman’s –

Sanjana: Right.

Parinita: Movie made for – it just – we need so little. I mean we want more, but we need so little –

Aparna: [laughs]

Parinita: To be happy and even – like I was telling you, Paru, this is what men feel like all the time!

Aparna: [laughs]

Sanjana: Oh my god.

Parinita: Feel represented and – so I’m glad that canon is becoming more diverse.

Sanjana: No, the other day, I’m telling you, this is like a continuous thing of trying to tell the men around me even in the family, is that when we’re watching TV shows, we made it a point to watch newer things. Like wherever something off discussion happens, I these days pause it and say, “This is how women feel all the time.”

Parinita: [laughs]

Sanjana: “Do you understand your male privilege now?” And then I un-pause and continue watching.

Aparna: [laughs] Before we move on from racebending, I want to give a shout-out to Hamilton which is my favourite racebending thing ever.

Sanjana: Oh my god yes!

Parinita: It’s true! I didn’t even think about that.

Aparna: Best example of all these old white people who have made America and –

Sanjana: Yeah! Washington.

Aparna: And they’re all being played by all these really kickass people, it’s the best.

Parinita: Yeah – what does he call it? The America of yesterday being portrayed by the America of today? Something like that?

Sanjana: Yeah.

Gif from the musical Hamilton. Text says: Immigrants, we get the job done.

Parinita: That is my favourite racebending text as well. And that’s like proper canon now.

Aparna: Exactly!

Parinita: But that’s the thing that you know, when you have this colonised mind, you don’t even imagine what you can imagine. You know like unless you step out of this this sort of bubble, this echo chamber, you don’t know what is possible.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: And when someone shows you what’s possible, your mind just –

Sanjana: After reading and hearing all of these things what struck me was that the world has changed a lot in the last ten years, like ten or twenty years. It has changed a lot in the sense that it has become a lot more closer – like it’s easier for you to find someone like you on the internet. Who is discussing and thinking the same thoughts. Or echoing the same thoughts back. Because what I’ve tried to understand is that stories were written at a certain time and to not fault the creator completely. Hold them accountable but not blame them completely because they wrote at a different time when they weren’t as educated because they didn’t read enough or they didn’t have enough people talking about things. People are trying to change the stories that were written. Like even if you see larger universes like the Star Wars universe, the first three movies versus the movies now, there is a lot more diversity. And you know even Harry Potter the movies versus the play, there is again you know

Aparna: Yeah.

Sanjana: There is a move to correct what you thought – took for granted so to speak.

Aparna: Correct. Like even in the Star Wars movies, even though one of them is set before the three original movies, there are women pilots and there are –

Sanjana: Yeah.

Aparna: Which never happened like the original trilogy doesn’t have it. But those sort of corrections like nobody is caring about the uproar that it’s creating in the traditional fans. Because everyone’s moving forward.

Sanjana: Nobody cares because it’s so awesome that there are women pilots and they are commanding the planes and it’s just very good. Even Anne With An E?

Parinita: Yeah.

Sanjana: How they’ve taken the original books that were written so long back and interpreted it so beautifully. Like I love how they’ve introduced Cole.

Parinita: They’ve politicised the text more than it ever was political.

Sanjana: And Aunt Josephine also, it’s so cool what they did with her.

Parinita: Yeah! But – so this is a good example of sort of reinterpreting something that was written like –

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: A hundred years ago. A bad example of doing that is – again, I don’t know if you guys – I’m on Twitter in the morning so I know these things. But there was this huge backlash against Barnes and Nobles which is this American bookstore. And one of the stores, I’m not sure who, but somebody here decided that you know all these classic books that are out of copyright so basically anybody can print them? So like things like Anne With An E, Jane Austen and things whatever all these Western classic books. So in order to make them diverse, because I guess now diversity is also a buzzword that everyone wants to capitalise on because we live in a capitalistic society. So they decided that oh you know children should be able to recognise themselves. So they just published covers which had diversity in terms of race and ethnicity. So things like Native Americans, black faces, brown faces. So racebending the characters almost.

Book covers of racebent book covers of classic books

The Barnes and Nobles racebent covers. Image courtesy Ad Week

Aparna: Hmm.

Parinita: But the backlash was that first of all, these people did not write for like a black audience or a brown audience.

Aparna: Exactly.

Parinita: Or a Native American audience. Secondly, instead of spending all this money and resources on diversifying a text that is not diverse, why don’t you just give opportunities to diverse creators to create their own books?

Sanjana: Yeah!

Aparna: Exactly!

Parinita: Yeah. So the internet is all ablaze with this conversation.

Aparna: [laughs]

Sanjana: Yeah.

Aparna: But the internet is also making people more –

Sanjana: Aware!

Aparna: Mindful of these things and more aware of these things. And that’s great.

Parinita: Oh absolutely! Because of this internet outrage the American Dirt her book tour was cancelled and instead they’re going to have a discussion essentially where she talks to people who have concerns.

Aparna: Right.

Parinita: And so I think they’re trying to rectify their mistakes. And the Barnes and Nobles, I believe they’ve decided not to do it anymore.

Aparna: Oh wow.

Parinita: Because there was such a – I mean they’d already printed it. And I might be completely lying and making this up. But I think they’ve decided – or maybe it’s just wishful thinking. But I think they’ve decided not to do it anymore. But they’ve spent all the money so yeah.

Sanjana: Hmm. Another thing that has changed from then to now is the Young Justice series. And the first episode came out in 2010. And the newest season has come out now, like at the end of 2019. And there is a vast difference between the representation of people and the diversity in terms of even gender and genderfluid characters and –

Parinita: Oh like She-Ra! She-Ra is also another fantastic thing where the earlier She-Ra was I’ve not watched it. But the one on Netflix, lots of gender diversity, there’s a nonbinary character. Or no, I think a genderfluid character. And yeah there’s just so much representation.

Aparna: Speaking of, we’ll now come to the Rosa Parks episode of Doctor Who. So my opinion of this episode changed completely after listening to the podcast Woke Doctor Who, their episode “Sweep Your Own Yard”. Because when I first watched it, I was very excited and I really liked the episode. But when listened to this podcast, and it was viewed from the experience of what was wrong with it and what could have been done better and why they didn’t like the episode. And it all just came so clearly to me of how like they spoke about how the power of the people’s movement was missing and the activism of Rosa Parks was reduced to – her reduced to this tired seamstress. And even though they got a black woman to write the episode, she’s from the UK, not from the US. But the things that were lacking showed very like little concern. This is what I call a Wikipedia article level research. [laughs] When the context was not properly understood and that’s why something that probably had good intentions behind it ended up being a really clumsy way of telling a story.

Sanjana: Yeah I made initial judgements about the episode in general, not realising that there was a podcast waiting to –

[Aparna and Parinita laugh]

Sanjana: Make that come crashing down. And I was like what?! And I was pausing saying like how could you not – but that just showed me if I had not heard that podcast, I would have gone away feeling that they did such a good job of it.

Aparna: Yeah!

Sanjana: And then without hearing that, I would have been praising them and not realising how much harm they did. Because at the end of the day, I would have gone back wondering wow, good job. And it was actually ‘cause it did more harm to the story of Rosa Parks than it did good. How it’s important to just you know go a little bit beyond the initial research and to get the right people to write it. Or even consult on it a little bit so that you heard it firsthand. It’s not that hard anymore. So that can’t be an excuse.

Parinita: So I think I have a slightly different opinion.

Sanjana: Hmm.

Parinita: Because I did this a little long way round. So I’d watched the “Rosa” episode when it first came out a couple of years ago. Loved it – completely loved it. And then I listened to this podcast first, I listened to it a few months ago, but then I listened to it again in preparation for this episode. And then I went back and watched the “Rosa” episode again. And I totally am with Woke Doctor Who on some of the critiques. I think that they’ve completely erased black women’s experiences – you know black women’s activism. That was the crux of the civil rights movement in the US and even now like with – like they mentioned Black Lives Matter, #MeToo.

Aparna: Yeah.

Parinita: They’ve completely erased them. So black women have – and they were the ones who do the most activism with intersectionality, with everything like what we’re doing here on this podcast. And I think they also – yeah like Paru said, reduced the activism of Rosa Parks. And the episode positioned it as if it didn’t happen at that moment, it would never happen.

Aparna: Yeah.

Sanjana: Hmm.

Parinita: Which now we know isn’t true because she would have just done it on another day. So like I guess it was a convenient form of storytelling.

Sanjana: Yeah she was chosen for it.

Parinita: Yeah. She was chosen for it because like they said, she was a light-skinned black woman. So it was a very deliberate, very smart, very well-strategised choice. So it removes the agency of the activists and of Rosa herself.

Aparna: Yeah.

Parinita: For the convenience of storytelling. And another of their critiques was that the UK has a habit of talking about American racism like pointing its fingers to the US because racism there is so much more extreme. And it’s so much more visible. Because of you know like all the stuff that we hear on the news. Police brutality against black men, black women. And so it’s easier to point fingers there but they do it at the expense of not exploring racism in the UK. Which might be different but it still exists. So racism still exists in the UK but they don’t explore that. They had a critique that Yaz and Ryan’s experiences of racism weren’t brought up in the show. Which I disagree with.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: Because Ryan and Yaz were attacked. Like Ryan was slapped by the white man right in the beginning, as soon as he got –

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: As soon as they got to –

Sanjana: Yeah, that even I agree.

Parinita: They had to – they were kicked out of a bar, they were called Negro and Mexican because you know Yaz’s identity doesn’t matter obviously. They weren’t able to get a room in a hotel – or they had to sneak in through the window. The police came after them. And then they sat and talked about how even in the UK in 2019 – 18 whenever that was, like it’s not like Rosa Parks had cured racism. Because –

Aparna: Yeah.

Parinita: Ryan was still checked by the police more than a white person was. Yaz, even though she’s a police person herself, she’s called Paki on the road which is a slur in the UK and she’s called a terrorist as well. Because of her identity.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: So I guess they didn’t explore it as much as they could have. But it wasn’t a story about them. I feel like they did.

Sanjana: No, that I agree with. Because when I initially wrote down my thoughts about the episode, that was the one thing that I took away about how then and now they did discuss about how they showed them how they were being treated plus they showed them discussing about the now. And so the then and now of how they were being treated was discussed to a small extent.

Parinita: To a small extent, yeah. And another critique that I agreed with was that the fact that this dude who comes from the 71st century and he’s a white supremacist. And they couldn’t believe in Woke Doctor Who that even in the 71st century –

Aparna: Yeah.

Parinita: Black people are still having to prove their humanity. Why is there white supremacy in the 71st century? Like if your idea of science fiction – and this is a critique I’ve heard about other science fiction as well. Like if your idea of the future doesn’t envision equality, or it envisions a certain group of people who are already marginalised now. Either they don’t exist in the future like your diversity stretches to having aliens and robots.

Aparna: Yeah.

Parinita: But not black people, brown people in positions of equality … what does that then say about what you think of these people, these groups now?

Aparna: Exactly.

Sanjana: Haan.

Parinita: So yeah that’s a critique that I totally agreed with. And I agree with their critiques and I totally get where they’re coming from, so this isn’t to respond to – they’re totally justified in having these concerns. But I watched the episode again, and I still loved the episode. I still thought it was a good episode. And I think that the episode could be used to explore the gaps that it doesn’t address. I think it would be such a good starting – a discussion episode. If you watch it with a child or even if you watch it with an adult, and then have a conversation after that. Because it ends on such a triumphant note.

Aparna: It does.

Parinita: And even though Jodie in the end, she does say that Rosa had to struggle. Like she didn’t cure racism.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: She lost her job. She knew the consequences. She got arrested, she lost her job, it was a lifelong struggle for her. And obviously racism still exists. But what she did was still important and having her story on a mainstream popular show like Doctor Who I think that’s really – it is important. And of course, there are mistakes that everybody would make. Like no text can be perfect you know but I think even an imperfect – in fact, an imperfect text, there’s more opportunities for conversations.

Sanjana: Yeah but see the point is that how many people have this conversation. It’s just that. I agree with you completely. You can take away a lot of positive things from it and at the end of the day, it’s not all bad. But the thing is how many of us have a discussion about it after watching the episode.

Parinita: No, absolutely! Again, if we don’t know that there was something wrong with the episode –

Sanjana: Yeah.

Aparna: Yeah.

Parinita: We wouldn’t possibly have a discussion

Sanjana: Exactly.

Parinita: When I first encountered these critiques is when I’d first watched the episode and then I went on Twitter because I was so excited about the episode and I wanted to know what other people were saying, and I did then encounter these critiques from –

Sanjana: Right.

Parinita: Black people in the US. Saying that no this is what you need to do to get a true picture of Rosa and her activism. Like lots of Twitter threads. So, the internet and social media there is a huge educational … you can learn so much from there.

Aparna: Yeah.

Sanjana: Absolutely.

Parinita: Yeah but then like you’re saying, not everyone has these conversations and maybe that’s something that like –

Aparna: Also Doctor Who is not a small show. They know the kind of audience they attract and they’ve been doing this for years and years. So if they are making a Rosa Parks episode, sorry, but I would expect a little bit more from them.

Parinita: Yeah. I agree. But I think that’s the – like I loved Woke Doctor Who – the episode – for making me think of all these critiques –

Aparna: Correct.

Parinita: And for making me thinking of all these things.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: But I just don’t agree with all their critiques because I think the show tried, not always success – in some places, it didn’t try at all. And that absolutely like it needs – it could have been very easily woven into the story. Like having more black women, having Rosa’s activism could –

Sanjana: Hmm.

Parinita: It wouldn’t have – it would have added to the story. I don’t know why they decided not to have that as a part in the story. But there are some critiques that I felt like the show did try to address if a little like if not completely, if that makes sense.

Aparna: And now we’re coming to another What If? section.

Sanjana: [makes sound effect]

Parinita: Our last section of the podcast.

Aparna: Yes. And this is one What If from Parinita. What if you had to decolonise the Hogwarts curriculum? What would you include in it? I’m going to start with mine. Basically I was just reminded of this conversation that Harry and Hagrid have in the very beginning about – I’m paraphrasing – but Harry asks why more people don’t know about magic. And Hagrid says something to the effect of then everyone will want to use magic to solve the world’s problems – their own problems. So my curriculum change would be to expose the people in the wizarding world to more of the world’s problems. Like the climate crisis. I don’t know maybe they can solve it, in which case it would be magic well spent. So maybe there are wizards and witches who want to use magic to solve the world’s problems and they should know about the world’s problems to be able to solve them.

Parinita: And also magic is not a finite resource. Why don’t you solve human problems?!

Aparna: Exactly!

Sanjana: Yeah!

Parinita: Why are you hoarding magic like your skills and stuff?

Aparna: That’s what!

Parinita: Like use it na, use it to solve everyone’s problems.

Aparna: See no! Like even if it involves – even if it needs you to mind-control spells or on policy makers to make them –

Parinita: As a PhD researcher, I have a huge ethical problem with mind control.

Aparna: I have no problem with it. No more trees should be cut to build flyovers.

Parinita: I’d like to tell my examiners I don’t approve of mind-controlling my research participants.

[Aparna and Sanjana laugh]

Aparna: What about you, Parinita?

Parinita: So my decolonising would involve first of all hiring more diverse staff. Having more people who are just not white, able-bodied like whatever class backgrounds they belong to. Just having more diversity in the staff in general. Making more efforts to recruit people from diverse backgrounds as well. And why not have more interactions with Muggles? I know this is something that might not be possible in a Hogwarts – this would be a systemic overhaul with the Ministry of Magic and all. But I feel like there’s a lot to learn – a lot that Muggles can learn from wizards, like Muggle children can learn from wizarding children but also magical children can learn so much from Muggle children as well. Like in terms of the literature that they read. And like all this conversation that we’re having about We Need Diverse Books and Own Voices –

Aparna: Yeah.

Parinita: I feel like that can be incorporated into Hogwarts as well. So they’re reading widely. They’re not just reading wizarding books, they’re also reading Muggle books. And not just British Muggle books and they’re reading books from all over the world, especially the countries they’ve colonised.

Sanjana: So I’m just going to interject and add this because I had a – they should have a course on world literature and they should read like Satyajit Ray and Chinua Achebe and stuff is what I wanted them to read.

Parinita: Yeah. And also it’s 2020. Figure out your technology problems now. Technology and the internet –

Sanjana: Yeah! Oh my god!

Parinita: And social media are very important decolonising conversations. Please get your shit together. Read some Twitter threads, read some articles. Like you need the internet, you need computers and smartphones.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: That’s my decolonising Hogwarts curriculum idea.

Sanjana: So in that event I feel like they should have a film studies course.

Parinita: Hmm yeah.

Sanjana: And like you know like have world cinema screening.

Aparna: [laughs]

Sanjana: Like have like a Gandhi class and have a …

Parinita: [laughs] Yeah.

Sanjana: Just arrange them on the carpet and watch movies.

Parinita: I mean I feel like –

Sanjana: I’m sure if they want, they can project it on the wall or something.

Parinita: Like they’ve figured out magic, surely they can figure out Muggle technology. But also with this decolonising Hogwarts curriculum, I feel this is also really important in Muggle educational systems. Like in the UK, the students here don’t seem to learn about the effect that the Empire had. Like I was reading this book about Brexit, written by these two academics who live in Oxford, and they’ve based it on solid research and things. And they’re like yeah, students have this very skewed idea of what the Empire was and what the effect was on the world. And now it’s like those same students who are complaining about foreigners and immigrants and voting for Brexit because they don’t understand why all these brown and black people are here. Like why are we here?! Like you’ve destroyed our economy, why do you think we’re arriving here?!

[Sanjana and Aparna laugh]

Parinita: And in India as well. Like we don’t learn about caste, we don’t learn about religion in – we don’t even learn about the Empire really, except in really abstract terms. We don’t learn about the ongoing impact –

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: The British divide and rule policy has had and how it’s been taken advantage of by politicians and media and culture and everything. So –

Aparna: Yeah.

Parinita: I think that decolonising needs to be a worldwide phenomenon.

Sanjana: No, no, it’s true. We study history very badly. We’re not told about the real, actual stories because recently we did a comic on path-breaking women and I just realised there’s so much of history that we’ve just not been told. Why aren’t we reading about these women in school books is what I don’t understand.

Aparna: Okay that’s a good place to wrap up this episode. I’m going to ask everyone for their closing thoughts.

Sanjana: Well it’s more of a closing thought on the general research that this podcast has brought in my life. And I just – I love the conversations that we’re having on a daily basis. It’s just – it’s very liberating to think on – to think. Just after college now.

Aparna: [laughs]

Sanjana: And I hope that even if no – like a few people listen and think even a little bit, I feel like it might it’s – that’s my closing thought. Just thoughts.

Aparna: Parinita?

Parinita: My closing thought is diversity isn’t political. We need more diversity, all kinds of diversity, everywhere. And I feel like this podcast is such a good way of allowing me to question my own biases and assumptions. Like you think you’re open-minded and you think you –

Sanjana: Yeah!

Parinita: You know, you have these thoughts. But you don’t even know what you’re missing. Once you know that what things you have a blind spot on, it’s nice to be able to educate yourself. So –

Aparna: That’s true.

Parinita: Thank you internet and thank you social media.

Aparna: [laughs]

Parinita: And fandom! Thank you fandom.

Aparna: And my closing thought is a sentence that I heard at a workshop that I attended in Bombay last week. Which is that we are responsible for the stories we hear. And all the stories are out there, especially now with the internet. Everyone’s story can be heard. So we have to just listen. Thanks for listening!

Parinita: Bye!

Sanjana and Aparna: Bye!

[Outro music]

You’ve been listening to Part Two of our two-part episode on race and representation. If you haven’t heard the first part yet, listen to it for our interpretations of intersectionality, our complaints about token diversity in science fiction and fantasy, our struggles with our colonised minds, and the importance of Own Voices. Thanks again Paru and Sana for sharing my PhD brain and being the best podcast partners in the universe! And a big fat thank you to Jack for doing all the technical editing bits so I don’t have to.

You can now listen to Marginally Fannish on Spotify, Apple, Google, or SoundCloud. I’d love to hear from you and talk to you – so any feedback, comments or critiques are very welcome! Get in touch with me on social media, leave a comment on my blog, or email me at edps@leeds.ac.uk. If you’d like to follow the podcast or the PhD project, visit my website marginallyfannish.org where you’ll find both the podcast episodes and the blog. You can also receive updates on Facebook or Instagram at Marginally Fannish or on Twitter where I’m @MarginalFannish. If you enjoyed the podcast, please share it with anyone you think will enjoy it too.

Thanks for listening! Tune in again next time for all things fannish and intersectional!

[Outro music]

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