A PhD project exploring intersectionality through fan podcasts

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Tag: Enid Blyton

Episode 7 There’s Never Chicken Tikka Masala At Hogwarts: Different Cultures in Fantasy Media

Episode Resources:

For this episode we looked at the following texts:

Fan podcast – Breaking The Glass Slipper Cultural Traditions of Magic with Zen Cho

Fan podcast – Breaking The Glass Slipper Islands in Speculative Fiction: Live from WorldCon

Fan podcast – Imaginary Worlds Do You Speak Conlang?

Fan podcast – Imaginary Worlds In Defense of the Star Wars Holiday Special

Fan podcast – Reading, Writing, Rowling Amy H Sturgis: Fantasy, Imagination and Indigenous Futurism

Fan podcast – Reading, Writing, Rowling Harry Potter Voices Across Borders

Article – How Knowledge About Different Cultures Is Shaking the Foundations of Psychology

Episode Transcript:

This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity. If you would prefer the original, unedited version, please let me know!

Photo of Aditi Krishnakumar

[Intro music]

Welcome to Marginally Fannish, a show where we aim an intersectional lens at some of our favourite media and their fandoms.

[Intro music]

My name is Parinita Shetty and you’re listening to the seventh episode of Marginally Fannish. In this episode, I talk to Aditi Krishnakumar about how different cultures are represented in some of our favourite fantasy worlds. As readers who grew up in India, there were many cultural stereotypes in Western texts which we just didn’t pick up on. Now, we’ve learned a lot through the collective intelligence of online fandom.

The ways in which mainstream media portrays different cultures influences audience attitudes about people from these cultures. The dominance of Western fantasy and culture in fiction marginalises other ways of being in the world. In a lot of fantasy worlds, diverse cultures are used either as set-dressing or just for comic relief. The ways in which different languages and foods are depicted can also sideline certain groups of people.

What is considered the norm and what is exotic in popular fantasy? Whose cultures and intellectual histories are privileged? Such conversations about diversity among fans can play a huge role in decolonising traditional ideas of fantasy. Retellings of old stories – both in traditional media and within fandom – are increasingly used to subvert problematic ideas and reflect progressive values.

Find our conversation about all this and more in today’s episode.

Happy listening!

[Intro music]

Parinita: Today, I’m so glad that I get to chat with Aditi Krishnakumar. Aditi grew up in India and she now works in the finance industry in Singapore. And she enjoys reading and is a published writer. So we share a children’s book publisher – Duckbill Books in India. And when Aditi’s book was due to be released, my editors asked me if I’d like to interview her for their blog because they know I’m a middle-grade fantasy nerd. I fell so completely in love with The Magicians of Madh. And Aditi creates such a fascinating world populated with the most absurd characters – absurd in the best way possible. I love absurd characters. And so she has a bunch of absurd characters and cultures and I just didn’t want to stop reading her world. And if you’re into comic fantasy and middle-grade books, you should definitely check her book out as well. This week, Aditi and I are going to talk about how different cultures are represented in some of our favourite fantasy worlds – both of us love reading fantasy. And we’re also going to chat about our experiences in online fandom a bit. So Aditi, do you want to introduce your own experiences encountering different cultures – either in fiction, fandom or the real world?

Aditi: This is probably true for lots of us growing up in India – the first things that you read, the first fantasy, everything – it’s all Enid Blyton.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: And all the magical creatures that you hear about are the brownies and the pixies and –

Parinita: [laughs] Yeah.

Aditi: [laughs] And you know the things they eat, the puddings and cakes and jellies. So that was pretty much it. And then The Hobbit I guess was next. And these are all … they’re just so very, very British. Both of them. Like really British books. Which is fine because they were by British writers. But I think … it has changed now – but growing up, there was definitely not many fantasy books that were really relatable for me.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: In that world.

Parinita: I’m the same as well. I grew up reading Enid Blyton and other British and American books.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: So there was The Baby-Sitters Club and things and –

Aditi: Charlotte’s Web.

Parinita: Yeah. So even things that weren’t fantasy, or even if they were fantasy, the fantastical world was a whole other thing. And that real world in the UK or in the US was also this sort of foreign, alien world almost.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: And I also grew up watching a lot of Bollywood movies. I love Bollywood movies. I grew up in Mumbai.

Aditi: Um hmm.

Parinita: So it is pretty diverse but it’s still a very limited diversity. Even though we have a lot of people from all over the country in the city, especially when you’re younger, you only really interact with a limited group of people.

Aditi: Right, right. ’Cause in school you’ve just got a small bunch of friends.

Parinita: Exactly. Or in your housing society you’ll have neighbours and things. And so Bollywood introduced me to all these different cultures. I’ve never tried to look at Bollywood critically until a few years ago. And there are so many stereotypes in terms of different cultures that they portray in Bollywood movies as well. When it comes to tribal folk in Bollywood movies – and in Hollywood as well, I guess – and their customs, it’s just –

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: So full of stereotypes. Or even different religions or people from different regions – Gujarati stereotypes or South Indian stereotypes or Bengali stereotypes. There are so many. And in Enid Blyton, I know that she’s now being criticized a lot because golliwogs were supposed to represent black people in her books?

Aditi: Right, yeah. I think it’s one of those things that you can still – because I still think some things are really good about her books, especially her school stories, I think. You know they show girls being independent.

Parinita: Oh yeah.

Aditi: You don’t see that in The Famous Five and stuff but where her stories are exclusively about girls … I mean she does have problems and you can acknowledge them. But I think there’s still some great stuff.

Parinita: No, absolutely. I still love Enid Blyton’s books because it made me fall in love with reading.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: Those are the books that I read when I was six – The Faraway Tree and The Famous Five and things. And obviously at that age, I didn’t pick up on these anti-foreigner sentiments. And golliwogs and racism toh I wouldn’t even have thought of. Because I had no conception –

Aditi: I didn’t even know what a golliwog was.

Parinita: Yeah! Exactly! I mean there were pictures of the golliwog in the books, in some of the toys ones …

Aditi: In Noddy they had some golliwog pictures.

Parinita: Yeah. But I would never have – just because growing up in India, I don’t have that idea that oh this is supposed to represent black people. I just thought oh this is a doll.

Book cover of The Three Golliwogs by Enid Blyton

Aditi: You know I used to have those trolls when I was a kid right, those troll dolls.

Parinita: Yeah, yeah.

Aditi: Which I just thought it was something like that.

Parinita: It’s like with Harry Potter as well right? You can love the world and the story but you can also critique it. It doesn’t need to pass by unproblematically but you can still love it. I think it’s that balance. And it’s difficult because I think especially the books and things that were written a longer time ago when these conversations weren’t happening, if we read them through 2020 [the year the episode was recorded in] lenses, it might not be as diverse and inclusive as we want them to be. And I think it’s important to have that conversation that this is where it is missing.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: I would still want to read Enid Blyton books because the stories themselves are something that I have such positive associations with. So just to begin with our episode, a few of the podcast episodes that you and I listened to, touched on the theme of the dominance of Western fantasy and culture in fiction.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: And how this either marginalizes or exoticises other cultures and beliefs. And we talked about Enid Blyton a bit. When you were listening to this, did you think of any examples yourself?

Aditi: I mean one was Blyton herself ’cause there’s this some – I forget which one it is, it’s one of these Five Find-Outers books.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: Where … oh I remember – I think it’s The Missing Prince or The Vanished Prince or something like that. So there’s an Indian price called Bongawi.

Parinita: Oh.

Aditi: Or Bongawa or something.

Parinita: Yeah that very Indian name. [laughs]

Aditi: Yes. So I mean that’s the kind of thing I thought – at the time I honestly I’m not sure I even realised they meant Indian like people from India. I don’t know what I thought. But it’s not something –

Parinita: Yeah because they also call Native Americans Indians, right? A lot of these early books, American Indians was this other thing.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: So in Breaking The Glass Slipper, The Cultural Traditions of Magic Episode with Zen Cho

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: She was talking about how the fantasy fiction that we read is, it currently depends on which culture is dominant. And mostly the stuff that is dominant right now is Western fantasy. It’s British and it’s American. And even on television. So I didn’t even realise these ideas of fantasy that had been shaped by Western culture. Because you grow up in India, at least if you grow up in certain parts of India, in cities and things, you have access to both Western and Indian culture.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: You have influences of both. So I thought it was interesting that she pointed this out, because even she is from Malaysia – she’s Malaysian-British. And she pointed out how a lot of Western fantasy is very Judeo-Christian. And it exoticises anything that doesn’t fit within that framework. And I was like oh yeah I actually hadn’t thought about that.

Aditi: It does, right? The other thing that you’d shared, I think the article [she meant podcast episode] about the Star Wars Holiday Special.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: I like Star Wars but I think that’s part of the reason everyone tends to make fun of that. And you can kind of see why people make fun of it ‘cause it’s just so obviously –

Parinita: Have you watched it? The Star Wars Holiday Special?

Aditi: I hadn’t watched it for years but when I read that article, I saw a bit of it on YouTube.

Parinita: Yeah. Oh my god. So just as an aside, because I have to say I just love that movie so much [laughs].

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: One of my friends introduced it to me a couple of years ago.

Aditi: Um hmm.

Parinita: We were just doing this bad movie night thing where we’d have these regular bad movie nights at their flat. And we watched this and I just couldn’t believe that this cultural touchstone that Star Wars is and The Star Wars Holiday Special, what it is. I don’t even ironically love it, I very sincerely and –

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: Unironically love that ridiculous little movie that even George Lucas has completely divorced himself from.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: Like nope, I’m not going to do this. But yeah, sorry I interrupted you.

Aditi: I think it started from George Lucas because you always read about how he was influenced by Joseph Campbell and I read this book at some point of how Harry Potter also reflects the hero’s journey from Campbell. But the thing is Joseph Campbell’s books themselves have always felt like they are so … even his books about oriental mythology are still so much from a Western lens.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: And that’s the proto-text that people very often consider now for fantasy writing or for epic writing. But that itself is such a Western lens that you know that’s –

Parinita: Yeah and even on a couple of the Imaginary Worlds episodes that we listened to. How they were talking about basically science fiction – I don’t know if it was the ones that we listened to but I listen to a lot of his episodes. And just the analogy with science fiction. Things like Star Trek where the whole concept is discovery and whatever, but it is a very Western colonial perspective as well.

Aditi: It is.

Parinita: Which you don’t think about right? At least I don’t. I’ve grown up not thinking critically about media at all.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: I just – I’m entertained by media. And it’s only now that I found that I have those tools and the vocabulary to articulate these things. But also I enjoy doing it. I enjoy looking at these things critically. I was watching Star Wars the original trilogy the other day and the Ewoks are also so very stereotypically tribal I was like okay yeah this is interesting. I didn’t realise how much …

Aditi: When you see it as a kid, you just think that they’re kind of cute.

Parinita: Yeah! And even The Star Wars Holiday Special. So the first twenty minutes is – and this is what I love telling my friends about this movie, about how ridiculous this movie is – it is twenty minutes of unsubtitled Wookie dialogue.

Aditi: [laughs] I read that.

Parinita: So they’re just –

Aditi: That’s just –

Parinita: Yeah. [laughs] They’re just literally grunting. You have to just imagine what they’re saying to each other and you don’t have this context. But like I said, I unironically love this movie. But because I love critically analyzing it, I was also thinking, to me it was a bit like how someone who doesn’t speak the dominant language in a culture or doesn’t belong to the dominant religion or the race or whatever, depending on where they are, and how for them, their culture is marginalised as well.

Aditi: Yes.

Parinita: Like in this Wookie land, obviously nobody understands them. We, the audience don’t understand them. And it’s so easy to make fun of it – to laugh it off.

Aditi: But you know on a somewhat related note, this is one thing I found when watching not the really big-budget Hollywood movies but some TV shows and things like that. When they’re speaking, especially when they’re speaking in Tamil occasionally and very often they’re allegedly speaking in Tamil which I speak. But I don’t know that it’s Tamil.

Parinita: Aaah.

Aditi: Because it sounds nothing like it. And I have to read the subtitles. So it’s sort of –

Parinita: [laughs] Ohhh right!

Aditi: You’ve not actually even got someone like a decent voice coach. Which they would do if someone was speaking French or Spanish or something.

Parinita: I know we’re going to talk about it a little more later but just because like you said that it’s just the politics of language as well. I was watching um what’s uh I’ve completely blanked out on the name – Hasan Minhaj’s show? The one on Netflix? [Patriot Act]

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: I love that show. And he was doing an episode on India – the Indian political system. I think it was about Modi. I’m not sure. So he started speaking in Hindi at one point and the subtitles said, “speaks in a foreign language”.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: And I was like ummm first of all, you’re a global platform. You’re on Netflix. I mean it’s produced in the US but it is on a global platform. So foreign for whom? And also you’re literally talking about the Indian elections. It wouldn’t have been so difficult to figure out that it is Hindi or to just look it up or something. Yeah, I sent a very outraged message to one of my friends.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: Saying, “Foreign to whom?!” So the problem isn’t obviously including diverse cultures in your world. You want diverse cultures. It’s only I think when you use these unfamiliar cultures as if they’re – I think Zen Cho mentioned this – as if they’re set-dressing in your fantasy world.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: Especially if that culture is marginalised in the real world.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: One of the things that we read [I meant an episode we listened to] was the whole Native American fiasco that J. K. Rowling had found herself in.

Aditi: Oh my god yeah. With those Skinwalker things. That was just …

Parinita: Yeah! And honestly I have to admit, I don’t know that much about Native American culture and about what they consider really sacred and what they consider really a part of their culture. I think another thing that’s really popular on the internet now – or it was a few years ago – was the term “my spirit animal”.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: Like something is my spirit animal. Which now a lot of Native people on Twitter and things say that, “No this is offensive to us, we don’t like you using this. So instead why don’t you use Patronus because that’s basically what you mean and that’s not offending anybody.” She’s [Rowling] so rich. Why doesn’t she just hire a research assistant to do this stuff?

Aditi: I know! [laughs]

Parinita: It’s just ridiculous to me.

Aditi: No, I think that’s what’s happened with her is that as long as she was writing about British things in a British setting, she probably knew what was too sacred to be touched simply because she grew up with it. But once anyone, not just J. K. Rowling, once anyone starts writing about something that unfamiliar …

Parinita: But you would think that especially now because this she did not write in the 90s – about Magic in North America on her Pottermore essays

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: It was now. When these conversations are very present. This is happening on the internet. And even if she doesn’t spend time on the internet, the fact that you have this power and your voice is reaching so many people and you know that your franchise is super popular, you would think that you would make more of an effort.

Aditi: You should do a bit more.

Parinita: Yeah!

Aditi: It’s not just that. It’s like her list of wizarding schools.

Parinita: [laughs] Oh my god.

Aditi: You’ve got three of them in Europe and all of Asia has one wizarding school in Japan.

Parinita: Yeah! In Japan! I was listening to this other podcast Woke Doctor Who where they were doing a Harry Potter thing. And one of them, she’s Chinese-American. And she was like um Japan attacked China a few decades ago.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: I don’t think Chinese wizards would be really happy to go to Japan just like yeah hello, everything’s all right. And Africa I think has one? The whole of Africa has one wizarding school as well.

Aditi: Yeah. This is basic maths. She just needs to work out the population and figure out where the schools should be, that’s it.

Parinita: Yeah. And the UK I mean it’s such a tiny place and they get this whole British wizarding school. Which of course has its own issues. So I didn’t realise this earlier. All these British politics I’ve only learned the nuances of once I’ve moved to the UK.

Aditi: Um hmm.

Parinita: But Jack, who is Scottish, he had encountered this thing about Seamus Finnigan. He doesn’t read Harry Potter but he knows some things.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: And Seamus Finnigan, this Irish character who loves blowing things up and setting things on fire.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: And I was like oh my god what! [laughs] I didn’t even make that connection that your one Irish character loves blowing things up.

Gif from the Harry Potter movies of Seamus Finnigan accidentally blowing up a potion

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs] I guess there is an element of parody. I suppose you’re just doing it …

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: Or maybe she thought that she was doing it as parody, I suppose?

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: But I don’t know where that line is between – this North America thing, definitely she’s crossed the line because there have been Native American fans of Harry Potter who’ve called her out on it and she hasn’t yet to my belief, she hasn’t responded to the critique at all.

Aditi: Right. And the other thing is the Nagini thing which has been another disaster I think for her. And in so many ways it’s just so wrong to begin with. She’s not really focused on the mythology. Which is a secondary thing. But also this whole concept. I don’t know if she thought about it at the time when she said that killing Nagini was necessary. I don’t think Harry Potter spoilers count now, do they?

Parinita: No, no. I mean I’ll put a spoiler warning anyway. But yeah.

Aditi: But when you realise then that she was in fact a woman who was forced to be in that form and then killing her is necessary. And it’s just such a really, really terrible thing.

Parinita: And especially in a world where the characters of colour you can count on like maybe if not one hand, on two hands. Even though I think Nagini is from Crimes of Grindelwald?

Aditi: She is, yeah.

Parinita: I haven’t watched that movie yet. It’s on my list. As a proper Harry Potter scholar I suppose I should.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: But I’ve heard such bad things about it that it’s completely put me off watching it. But yeah even in the Harry Potter world but also in that prequel world, there aren’t that many characters of colour. So the way to include diversity isn’t necessarily to make this dramatic death scene.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: I don’t know it just seems basic. And some of these ideas you know they become so ingrained in you unconsciously because of what we’re exposed to, because of what we’re reading. We internalize these ideas of fantasy that we don’t even understand that oh this is our idea of fantasy. Which is why I love Terry Pratchett, his Discworld books.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: Because they push against it so often. They just take these tropes and stereotypes and they turn it upside down in a way that the reader’s like oh yeah you’re subverting it! And in a way that’s not obviously subverting it. Like he’s not saying oh look at me, look at how clever I am.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: But I mean he is pretty clever. So I love Terry Pratchett.

Aditi: Yeah, that’s true. And all of his characters who make a difference like Vimes and Lady Sybil and Granny Weatherwax, they’re not stereotypical, heroic characters.

Parinita: Yeah. And they’re taking witches, for example, or aristocracy or just guards. And it’s taking them and it’s not completely doing away with their identity. It’s not subverting it in a way that their history doesn’t matter if that makes sense.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: It’s using their history and their identity to subvert, which I really like.

Aditi: No, I think that’s cool. The solution is not to say I’m introducing this character who’s diverse but they’re exactly like all the other characters and it’s just that from their name or the actor playing them or something, that’s how you know that they’re diverse.

Parinita: Yeah! Exactly. I’m always torn you know as a writer but also as a reader. Because currently diversity is so … we’re still not there yet where we’ve achieved equal representation.

Aditi: Right

Parinita: So what’s the better way where you don’t mention anyone’s race or ability or gender, gender identity or whatever. And you just allow people to read themselves into it? Or you explicitly mention all the diverse identities so that it is more explicit?

Aditi: Yeah actually I think both ways work. I mean to an extent. ’Cause if you’re in a fantasy world with made-up names then it’s fine, you don’t have to. People can just imagine anything. Sometimes in the real world, just the sort of names and locations give you a bit of an idea of at least culturally what you mean. Honestly and I know I’m speaking from a position of privilege here because I can afford not to care but it’s just … something I’ve never really thought about one way or another in books. Because all this thing about shipping and who do you want to be dating whom and all that, I’ve never been involved in and never really have I cared about it. It’s always sort of like you know …

Parinita: Yeah like what other people say. I honestly didn’t think about these things either. Until I was listening to this episode um I forget the name of the Harry Potter podcast – oh yeah #WizardTeam. And it’s these two black American fans who are reading each chapter.

Aditi: Um hmm.

Parinita: And they just have a commentary. And they read Hermione but also Hagrid and Minerva McGonagall as black because they’d said that there is nothing that said otherwise in the text. In Harry Potter, all the characters who are not white – their race is mentioned.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: Whereas everybody else is normal I guess. Or you just don’t need to know their race because they’re obviously white.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: So I realised that when I’m reading Harry Potter or I’m reading any text that is Western-authored, for me everyone is white. I’ve not yet been able to decolonise my mind that much that I read my race or another race into it. I need to be told that this person is black or this person is Asian just for me to be able to even imagine differently. I suppose because –

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: I’ve only been reading certain kind of books and watching a certain kind of –

Aditi: You know that happens with me too. When it’s a Western writer … yeah you’re right, unless they specifically say this character is whatever they are, you just assume that they are white.

Parinita: Yeah. Which is why I’m trying to … so over the last, I think, year or a bit, I was trying to read more fantasy exclusively authored by women. It just started off randomly but then I realised that I actually really enjoy the different kinds of stories that are here now when it’s women who are authoring these worlds. And in a way that I didn’t even realise I was missing. Because I was reading most of the books that are written by men or TV shows and movies that are created by men.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: And then I started reading more books from women of colour as they say in the US which now it’s a term I’ve adopted whereas both of us – we are women of colour. We are both from India. Like even in Singapore –

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: There everyone is from … I think it’s very multicultural right? A lot of different countries’ inhabitants?

Aditi: It is, yeah. Especially in the business district and all you could be in any country because there are Chinese and Japanese and Indians and Europeans so there’s like everybody.

Parinita: Yeah. Which I think is so … like there’s so much potential because now at least in a lot of bigger cities, it is so multicultural.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: In Mumbai, it may not be in terms of – there are of course non-Indians who come and live there as well. Who some people will call expats because immigrants is only for brown people.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: But there’s also so many people from other parts of the country, right? India is essentially like twenty-seven different countries in one.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: And there is so much potential. But it seems like the way it’s divided is between dominant and marginalised – that’s the sort of relationship different people share. It’s such a pity because we’re missing out on so much. We as in we from the dominant culture within India or Singapore I guess.

Aditi: Yeah, no we do. But honestly, I’m not quite sure what the way around this is because when you think about it, it just doesn’t end well if you try to force people to interact. So it’s just one of those things that has to happen organically.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: And I hate that word but that is the only word for it.

Parinita: No, that’s true. Which is why for me, media is such an important way to do this. Because if your media shows these cultures – and whatever media not just books and fantasy but also movies and TV shows and things. If you are showing them only in stereotypes, then that’s how people who don’t know these others – who don’t interact with people who are not like them in the real world will then have this idea of those people, right? I didn’t sound very coherent but –

Aditi: [laughs] No but I know what you mean. You’re right. Because if your only exposure to somebody is through Hollywood which will happen if you’re Indian and you’re maybe living in a smaller town or something. Your only exposure to people from like China may be through movies.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: And then you’re just going to have this idea that could be really, really wrong.

Parinita: Yeah. And now of course there’s like ugh just mentioning China now is so fraught because just the amount of – I don’t know how it is in Singapore because obviously it’s a very different part of the world. But in the UK there have been so many attacks against not just Chinese people but also East Asian people in general. Because of this whole Coronavirus thing. And it’s just like it – it’s just – it makes me very depressed to talk about, honestly I shouldn’t have brought this up. But I think there is a link between how you consider people from another country just because of the media. Not just entertainment media but news media as well. If they’re so othered that it’s almost like they’re aliens and you know their – even the language that’s used, like in the US, for example, oh aliens.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: Mexicans are aliens.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: Of course it would have an effect. The language that you use is important. It is political. In India as well, people from Pakistan or from other parts of the country – if you use a word like cockroaches for them; if you’re a minister of a party who’s using this language, how do you make it better? That organic growth, it’ll be impossible for that to be achieved you know.

Aditi: Right. Yeah, no that’s true. There has to be … I don’t know it’s really depressing to think about it.

Parinita: It is. Let’s move on to some of our fantasy before we get really, really sad about this. Because while it is important, I don’t know how much we can do – what we can do about it.

Aditi: But can you imagine if Trump, when he was talking about Mexicans, if instead of calling them illegal aliens, he called them expats or something?

Parinita: Yeah! Exactly. I obviously consider myself an immigrant in the UK currently because I’m living here. But I can’t call myself an expat because first of all that word is … I’m very doubtful of that word.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: I side-eye it. But also I’m brown so I’m not allowed to call myself an expat. And I’m not rich so I’m definitely not allowed to call myself an expat.  So moving on to less depressing topics. Or maybe not. Maybe Harry Potter might also depress us. But I do love Harry Potter. [laughs]

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: Despite all the problems that it has.

Aditi: No, that’s okay. We’ll still have fun.

Parinita: Yeah. [laughs] So perhaps we could think about what is considered the norm and what is considered exotic in some of our favourite worlds. One of the examples that I think you’d shared with me a few weeks ago was from Pratchett.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: Do you mind just briefly talking about that?

Aditi: Right. So Pratchett whom I mean I love him to bits. I don’t remember which book it was. I think it was Snuff.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Aditi: But there’s this bit where there’s one of the characters whose mother or grandmother or something came from a country that is sort of a stand-in for China.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: And there’s a running joke throughout the book that she makes a dish called Man Dog Suck Po and then there’s another dish with another similar name. It’s basically played for jokes.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: I thought that was tragic because Pratchett is so brilliant. He doesn’t need to do this.

Photo of a page from a Discworld book. Text says: Vimes hesitated. It didn't do to upset an old mum. It was time to let the duke out. Vimes never normally bowed to anybody, but he bowed to Mistress Upshot, who almost dropped her tray in ecstatic confusion. 'I am mortified, my dear Mistress Upshot, to have to ask you to keep your Man Dog Suck Po warm for us for a little while, because your son here, a credit to his uniform and to his parents, has asked me to assist him in an errand of considerable importance, which can only be entrusted to a young man with integrity, as your lad here.' As the woman very nearly melted in pride and happiness Vimes pulled the young man away. 'Sir, the dish was Bang Suck Duck. We only have Man Dog Suck Po on Sundays. With mashed carrots.' Vimes turned back and shook Mrs Upshot warmly by the hand, and said, 'I look forward to tasting it later, my dear Mistress Upshot, but if you'll excuse me, your son is a stickler for his police work, as I'm sure you know.'

Parinita: Yeah I know. And I think even with people who consider themselves progressive, people who consider themselves I suppose above such cultural goof-ups – or just horrible cultural missteps – it’s so important to be on the guard against these things. Because like we were talking about earlier, it’s so internalised.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: That you don’t even realise what you’re doing is ridiculous or is terrible.

Aditi: Right. And I mean there’s not even a moment which would possibly have redeemed it when people try this thing and say, oh it’s actually good and I liked it or something. It’s just a joke.

Parinita: Yeah. It’s just like diversity for the sake of humour and comic relief. And the Amy Sturgis episode on Reading, Writing, Rowling that we were listening to about indigenous futurism? They were making fun of the horrible way in which Rowling has written about indigenous people. They mentioned, “the radical idea that Native Americans have their own intellectual history.” It’s this thing that to others – to people who are not well-versed with this culture or who are just looking at it from this colonial perspective – don’t realise that Native Americans, even though their knowledge and practices differ from ours, or in India it might be different regions or even or tribal or rural sort of practices, it is still a valid way of understanding the world and interacting with the world. It just doesn’t match your own. And it was reminding me then of other cultures within Harry Potter whose cultures and intellectual histories are dismissed and mocked. So for example, Ron and just I think the magical world in general is so suspicious of goblins. And the way that they engage with magic and objects and whatever.

Aditi: Right. And it’s so silly because when you think about it, the goblins are running the economy. You should be really grateful to them because I don’t think anyone in the wizarding world can do maths.

Parinita: [laughs] No. I mean their system is so complicated like how many Knuts and Sickles and –

Aditi: Can you imagine if you’re trying to make change and you’re going what is twenty-nine into seventeen or something.

Parinita: [laughs] I know. And yeah, so I was also thinking that the Muggle culture within that and the Muggle-born culture as well is also so diminished.

Aditi: It is. And you know there’s one thing that didn’t occur to me at first but later when I re-read and thought about it, I thought it was really awful. Which is right upfront when Hagrid says, we don’t reveal ourselves to Muggles. And the reason is that they’d want magical solutions to their problems. And okay you don’t want to just be fixing people’s glasses and all, I get it. But when you realise that wizarding medicine in Rowling’s world is so advanced.

Parinita: Yeah!

Aditi: And they’re just keeping it to themselves because they can’t be stuffed. That’s really awful.

Parinita: Yeah! And we were talking about this in an earlier episode – me and my friends. And we were like, could they fix the climate crisis? Why wouldn’t you? You live with the Muggles as well right? Do you not want the planet to be all right?

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: And also the thing is that they have such a paternalistic attitude towards Muggles and Muggle-born culture. So I re-read Philosopher’s Stone recently.

Aditi: Um hmm.

Parinita: And this Hermione’s obsession with reading everything to know about the magical world and being this rule-follower until … she isn’t. But still largely following rules.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: And I was thinking that that’s so similar to the experiences of an immigrant right?

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: Either in another country or even in another –

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: Like from rural to urban or whatever. And you want to be the best version of yourself because if you go wrong, you will be held as the representative for your entire race or religion or … yeah whatever. And nobody seems to really be that curious about Hermione’s Muggle background – except Arthur Weasley. But even he isn’t – it’s in a way that’s –

Aditi: It’s like he’s looking at something in a zoo.

Parinita: Yeah! Or in a museum. Okay magic is super advanced in some cases. But in other cases, like Muggles, we use ballpoint pens. [laughs]

Aditi: [laughs] They’re using quills and ink.

Parinita: Yeah! We don’t use chamber pots and I don’t know … some of them I think still use chamber pots or was it just Dumbledore – I don’t know. I have this –

Aditi: It’s Dumbledore who found chamber pots in the Room of Requirement.

Parinita: Oh yeah! Yeah! Which like … um plumbing?

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: So no, it’s just like there’s so much that can be achieved through cross-cultural collaboration.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: If the wizards and witches actually respected or were curious about Muggle culture, imagine how much better Hogwarts would be. Health and safety would definitely be better. Because they don’t seem to have heard about it. Maybe therapy? Some of the professors could also do with therapy, I think.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: And just the internet! Imagine how much miscommunication has happened in even just the Order of the Phoenix.

Aditi: I mean just imagine if Harry had a cellphone then Sirius would not be dead.

Parinita: I know! [laughs] I know!

Aditi: But you know another thing that I – and that’s another thing that I realised only after you put that thing about food in the Google doc [we use while planning the episode], the other thing that struck me is that in all of Harry Potter, all the food is just exactly like in Enid Blyton.

Parinita: Oh yeah!

Aditi: And I think the most foreign thing they have is like bouillabaisse.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: Even that is making fun of it but –

Parinita: Yeah because, oh what is this foreign thing that only Fleur seems to want?

Aditi: Yeah. But actual British culture I mean they do have a lot of other food I would think.

Parinita: Oh, you know what the national dish of the UK is? Chicken tikka masala. [laughs]

Aditi: Yeah exactly. But there’s never chicken tikka masala at Hogwarts.

Parinita: Exactly! I’m not even joking. This is something that Scotland claims to have invented which I’m taking with a grain of salt.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: It was some Bangladeshi immigrants in Scotland that apparently invented chicken tikka masala. Which fine whatever. When I used to read about Enid Blyton food as a kid, it used to seem so exotic and so exciting to me.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: And when I re-read it as an adult, I was like oh you’re eating boiled eggs with a twist of salt? Okay.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: That’s cool. I understand because I’ve read this that she’d written about it in the post-Second-World-War atmosphere where there was lots of rationing happening in the UK. So she was trying to make simple food and things sound exciting. Which worked because yeah it was super exciting even to this kid in India who had really yummy food around her. So the diversity in Hogwarts, what are the Patil twins eating? Are they happy with this bland British food?

Aditi: They’re having toast and marmalade for breakfast.

Parinita: Yeah!

Aditi: Every day.

Parinita: Yeah! Do they not want some masala in their –

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: I know what a struggle it is because I have a white Scottish boyfriend who is used to some spice but is not used to Indian level of spice.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: So  it’s always a compromise in terms of spice. And he knows I like chili in everything. I like chili flakes in most things.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: So I need some spice. How can you be an Indian or a child of an Indian immigrant in Hogwarts and not want … I don’t know some curry powder in everything.

Aditi: All of them. Or even Cho Chang, she never gets noodles. I think they’re always having –

Parinita: That’s true! There are no noodles in Hogwarts! What a travesty! There’s no fish and chips either. Which is I suppose would be considered more … I don’t know if there’s a class connotation …

Aditi: Maybe they can go to the Hog’s Head and get fish and chips.

Parinita: Ah perhaps. So it’s all healthy food in Hogwarts. Which is quite boring. Even dal would have also – [laughs]

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: Or lentil soup as they call it here. [laughs] That would have been at least more exciting. I never thought about the food in Hogwarts actually, about how narrow it is. What a fixed definition of food there is. And yeah I wonder if there’s fanfiction out there about just having a desi Christmas or a Diwali maybe.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: Maybe the Patils could celebrate Diwali or I don’t know whatever other – I’m very bad with my Hindu festivals. And in … I don’t know in Star Wars and things, food is not really mentioned …  except in the Star Wars Holiday Special where there was another twenty-minute segment which consisted of a person on the TV cooking something.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: With an increasing number of arms that came out. I’m telling you, everybody needs to go watch this movie because it is amazing. [laughs]

Aditi: [laughs] Food is not … I mean you see a bit of it here and there but it’s not really a focus.

Parinita: Which I don’t understand because for me food is the most important part of any adventure. [laughs] Like why – I suppose they’re busy fighting a genocidal maniac I guess so it’s okay.

Aditi: Maybe Jedi knights don’t care about food.

Parinita: Oh what a sad future! Is this the future that we’re heading towards? Oh no!

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: I know there have been a lot of critiques in A Song of Ice and Fire for his [George R. R. Martin’s] obsession with describing food. And Lord of the Rings as well. No, his [J. R. R. Tolkien] was trees.

Aditi: Yeah. [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs] Even in terms of food of course but there’s also language.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: We briefly spoke about that before and yeah I was thinking – just like in terms of the Wookie language, but also like in any of the fantasy worlds, of course, English is – because they’re written I suppose in the UK and the US. But the foreign languages that I can think of for example in the Lord of the Rings I think Elvish is one.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: Right? And the Orcs have their own language.

Aditi: Yeah, yeah.

Parinita: From what I remember. And obviously one is good whereas the other is evil.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: The people who come from the East are not to be trusted. [laughs] They’re villains. Whereas the Elves, they have this gentle tongue.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: No problems there.

Aditi: But yeah, no I think the way they handle languages is – and I think that’s a problem with Tolkien definitely ‘cause he’s … I mean I don’t want to speculate because it was so long ago so I don’t want to speculate about whether or not it was intentional. But everything that happens is focused on the West. And the East … I mean there are a lot of these mysterious events that happen there like the elves walk on the shore of the sea and they came to the west and the two blue wizards went there and they were never heard of again. So you have no idea what’s happening there. It’s just the sort of – for all you know there are snake charmers. It’s this sort of mysterious exotic place and we’ve got no clue what’s going on. And a part of it is also I think is that it was Tolkien’s area of study.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: The Anglo-Saxon and Nordic. And so it’s natural possibly that all the languages he invented should sort of be based on that. But yeah I don’t know I think culturally it’s also that his intention was to create a mythology for England.

Parinita: Hmm.

Aditi: So he wasn’t trying to be diverse which –

Parinita: Yeah

Aditi: I mean that’s not an excuse – it isn’t diverse.

Parinita: No. I mean I do understand what you’re saying. I suppose especially when – he was writing what during the 60s? The 1960s? 50s? Or something like that.

Aditi: Yeah. I mean he started writing a bit earlier than that. Started creating a bit earlier than that. But yeah then the books were coming out then.

Parinita: Yeah so I mean I do understand why diversity wasn’t such a big thing. But then the sort of ideas that we have … because I think Zen Cho said that currently Western culture is global culture. Just because of how cultural imperialism has moved in terms of media. And English itself is considered this language of intelligence.

Aditi: Hmm.

Parinita: In India.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: I’m talking specifically of India. One of my neighbours back home in Bombay, she had an interview in a school for her kid. Her kid was three or four so they wanted to get into a this fancy international school.

Aditi: Um hmm.

Parinita: And she was so worried. She wanted me to come to her the night before and teach her English because she was like, I don’t know to speak English. She speaks in Marathi. And she’s like, if I speak in Marathi and if I’m not able to speak in English, they’re going to think I won’t be able to look after my child’s education or they’re going to think I’m not intelligent.

Aditi: Oh god.

Parinita: Yeah! Right?! And this is in Mumbai where it’s full of Maharashtrians. It’s full of people who speak Marathi.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: And I did tell her don’t worry about the language so much. But also, on the other hand, there are people – people who speak in English – who do equate English with intelligence. And if you don’t speak in English, you’re obviously not as intelligent or your ideas are not as worthy as someone who does speak in English.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: Yeah it’s so sad. I think just talking about these things, it helps. But if you’re just talking amongst people who think like you, it’s … we’re just coming up with problems on this episode. [laughs] Like here’s a problem!

Aditi: No but actually now that you mention it, so there is this the thing in Lord of the Rings, the book, it doesn’t come in the movies. So Frodo, when he leaves Bag End, he meets these elves who are all going West because everyone goes to the West, it’s amazing.

Parinita: Yeah. [laughs]

Aditi: So there are two forms of Elvish that are primarily spoken in Middle-earth – Sindarin and Quenya. And Quenya is the one that is better and higher and everything. So he knows the Quenya greeting because Bilbo taught him.

Parinita: Ah.

Aditi: And he uses that and the elves are immediately like I think they name him Elf-friend on the spot.

Parinita: [laughs]

Aditi: So that’s pretty much the same thing that’s happened to your neighbour I guess.

Parinita: Yeah!

Aditi: Or that she thought would happen to her.

Parinita: And also just as a side-note, I find it really interesting that people like Tolkien fans are so excited to learn like Elvish or Star Trek fans are so excited to learn Klingon but not an actual foreign language that might make their neighbour more comfortable or somebody you know more comfortable.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: You know language is like food as well. I think in one of the episodes that I was listening to after we spoke when we were planning the episode, it was another Imaginary Worlds podcast episode about food in fantasy. And one of the guests was talking about how food is used to express xenophobia. Not just in the real world. Obviously in the real world where if you meet this unfamiliar food –

Aditi: Um hmm

Parinita: You’re like eww what is this, and it meets with disgust. But also in science fiction and fantasy, where if you’re going to this new either planet or country or land or whatever, there’s so much that can be done to push against what happens in the real world rather than just replicating what happens in the real world.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: I’m happy that even though something is so internalised, it’s difficult to unlearn these things, but still there’s still conversation happening. Like you and I we’re having one but also just on the internet in general. There’s more conversation about diversity so people are becoming aware of these things and it’s helping decolonise traditional ideas of fantasy.

Aditi: Yeah, I’ve learned to re-examine a lot of the things I thought and the way I read fantasy just through like Tumblr and Facebook. Well not Facebook so much, Tumblr. And stuff online.

Parinita: Yeah absolutely. Me too. Because you’re not learning these things in school, right? Nobody is telling you these things. Where else are you learning these things?

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: It’s just the internet and for me fandom. That’s one of the major reasons that I started this podcast for the PhD project because for me, fandom has been such a tremendous learning experience and critically analysing things and unlearning problematic things that I have internalised.

Aditi: I think part of the problem in schools at least might just be that they don’t know how to have these conversations. ’Cause one of the literature texts that I did in school was The Tempest.

Parinita: Hmm.

Aditi: And I mean I love Shakespeare too but that is also problematic in so many ways. But that’s just something they don’t talk about in schools. And maybe they don’t know how – they can’t you know …

Parinita: Oh yeah! You’re so right. I think more contemporary texts need to be used in schools anyway.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: But even if you want to place them in conversation with what you consider classic texts, there is such an opportunity to talk about anti-Semitism or to talk about problematic ideas in something like Shakespeare for example.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: I used to do this reading programme in a school in Mumbai.

Aditi: Um hmm.

Parinita: And one of the people really wanted to get rid of the fairy tale books in the library. Because she said that, which is true, a lot of the fairy tales, they have really problematic ideas of gender.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: But I told her that I think getting rid of these books would really be a lost opportunity because they’re going to be getting these messages outside anyway. Like we were talking about Disney.

Aditi: Yeah

Parinita: It is this huge corporate behemoth which is going to pervade everything.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: And I think a better use of that would be to read these stories but then teach the kids to problematise them; see what can be challenged in these ideas within the story that you don’t have to accept.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: And similarly in Shakespeare as well, I’m sure.

Aditi: Right. Because it’s the same thing we were talking about earlier. You can appreciate something and still realise that it’s got problems.

Parinita: Yeah! Exactly. So one of my favourite things is retellings of fairy tales or of mythology.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: Or just of old stories that were written when everything was really problematic if we look at it from now. But then they subvert the stories in ways that make them really relevant and contemporary and make it more exciting for us.

Aditi: Yeah. But actually you know I was reading this thing on – I think on Tumblr or somewhere a while ago. And I thought it was really cool. So it was about fairy tales and the original fairy tales, not retellings. About the good things even in those. So basically the one I remember is Cinderella ’cause she was saying that obviously it’s full of problems. But then the thing is also that Cinderella manages to stay hopeful despite all the horrible things that are happening to her.

Parinita: Hmm.

Aditi: And she stays kind and she is still a good person despite everything. And that’s something worth remembering even if there are problems with the rest of it.

Parinita: That’s true! That’s such a good point. Because that’s true even in the texts that we’ve talked about today right? For example Harry Potter.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: Or you know Lord of the Rings, Pratchett whatever. Some which we love more than others.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: For me it’s definitely Harry Potter. I’m an avowed Harry Potter fangirl. But also Pratchett. But yeah, you don’t need to toss out the whole thing because you have one problematic element. Or maybe more than one problematic element. You can still search for the good in that. Harry Potter has positively impacted so many people in the world.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: You see these examples in activism as well where they draw on Harry Potter in the way people might have drawn on religion first. They’re drawing on Harry Potter as a sort of cultural myth almost. And they’re using it to understand the world. That’s why I love fandom so much because there is room for all these different interpretations and you’re learning from each other. So in an academic text that I read, Henry Jenkins, who’s awesome – he’s one of my favourite academics. He’s a fan scholar, so he’s both a fan and a scholar. And he talks about the collective intelligence of fandom.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: Where one person doesn’t know everything. It’s impossible for one person to know everything.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: But everybody has different skills and knowledge and you’re coming together in this space around a thing that you love. And you’re drawing on your own experiences and knowledge and backgrounds and whatever. And making sense of it together.

Aditi: Yeah I think actually that’s why I like Tumblr so much ‘cause it’s really a space where that happens. People just join conversations.

Parinita: Like you were saying, you learned a lot of queer perspectives and ideas about queerness and queer ideology and things from Tumblr and fandom right?

Aditi: Yeah. Right. Because that’s just not something that – I mean I knew that queerness existed but it just wasn’t something that was really on my radar when I was reading. Just like I wouldn’t have thought that a character was non-white in a Western book, I would not have thought that a character was queer unless the writer just said it outright.

Parinita: Yeah because if you’re not a part of that marginalised group, I guess you’re not really thinking about these identities. There was another discussion about disability and neurodiversity.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: I was listening to this other podcast where they read Hermione and Luna as well as Neville I think in Harry Potter as neurodiverse. As autistic.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: They said something which really struck a chord. That when writers are trying to write or are writing disabled characters into stories, they’re usually really rife with stereotypes. Especially if it’s someone who doesn’t have experience with disability.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: And they’ve done research but they’re using … they’ve obviously not talked to a person with a disability So it’s a stereotype. So people with these disabilities, they would rather recognise their own identities and practices and behaviours and whatever in characters that are not explicitly said to be disabled.

Aditi: Right. No actually you know that makes sense. ’Cause also I think the problem would be that a writer would be afraid of being accused of bias if they had too many flaws in a disabled character or something of that sort. So they just end up being these perfect people.

Parinita: Yeah, yeah! Or just that one thing gives them this super skill or something.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: That their disability becomes their magical power. For me, just these fandom conversations are so great. Like I was telling you, fan podcasts have become my new fandom expression.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: Because Tumblr would have sucked – although fan podcasts suck a lot of my time also. But I don’t have time for two things right now. So luckily I get to do this as a part of my research. So I’ve chosen a good project.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: Yeah I learn so much. But even within fandom, I feel like even within these conversations … we were talking about cultures earlier; I feel like there are cultures within fandom as well.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: Not just say Harry Potter would be different and Lord of the Rings would be different. But even within Harry Potter fandom for example. So initially in fanfiction and things, there’s been a lot of conversations about gender and queerness.

Aditi: Yeah

Parinita: A lot of engagement with that. But not so much with race. A few years ago I think it was called out. This became a topic of conversation then in fandom that  you know there’s this race-blindness that’s happening and people are not really talking about race. Then trans folks were also complaining about this.

Aditi: Yes.

Parinita: But now I feel like in terms of diversity, there’s a lot of conversation happening about race. But not so much about other marginalised identities. Not so much for example about disability or class or I don’t know religion I guess. I do see a few things – there were these really cool texts about Muslim students in Hogwarts and how they would celebrate Eid and how they would do the month of Ramzan.

Screenshot of Tumblr post by bertiebottsbigbean. Text says: why don't we talk about muslim kids in hogwarts during ramadan? imagine waking up at 3 every morning and walking down for suhoor, to find the house elves have prepared a feast for them. imagine the kids having an extended curfew, so they can go and eat iftar at 10, where the house elves once again provide a ten course meal, topped with dates and traditional delicacies from around the world. imagine the kids being allowed to go into the kitchens in the middle of the night if they were still in the mood to eat. imagine the kids being allowed to leave class to do their prayers, and spending lunch times to read the quran. we need to talk more about muslim kids in hogwarts

Aditi: Yeah I think you were mentioning that. And that also brings up the question of the same thing, Patil twins and Cho Chang. I mean is everyone a Christian who goes to Hogwarts? Because they seem to celebrate Christmas and Easter.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: I don’t even know. Because I don’t get the impression that anyone is really overtly a believer.

Parinita: Yeah because they don’t talk about Jesus or anything. Or the birth of Christ or anything.

Aditi: Yeah so Christmas just seems to be for crackers.

Parinita: Yeah. A cultural rather than religious celebration.

Aditi: Right. So in that case there’s no reason why they can’t like you said have Diwali or something. I’m sure they’d have fun doing that too.

Parinita: How fun would Diwali sweets at Hogwarts be though?

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: Like jalebi and I don’t know I just miss Indian food a lot. I wish it was a bigger part of Hogwarts as well.

Aditi: And just think what they could do with the fireworks. [laughs]

Parinita: Yeah! Exactly.

Aditi: They don’t know what they’re missing.

Parinita: I mean maybe the animals like Fang wouldn’t have a great time during Diwali at Hogwarts but some sacrifices have to be made, I guess.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: But yeah even like Eid or something.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: Just having you understand each other through your customs and rituals and celebrations without exoticising them.

Aditi: Right. Or Chinese New Year because I’m sure Cho Chang can’t be the only Chinese student there.

Parinita: Yeah! I mean I hope not. Because there seems to be one token diversity everywhere. But yeah, just different cultural, regional, national celebrations would be really good. Scottish as well. They’re in Scotland. We don’t really know anything about Celtic culture.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: So I think we’re just about running out of time. But thank you so much Aditi for being on this podcast and for being a part of this project. It was so fun talking to somebody who has the same cultural contexts but also different fandoms and just bringing both our fandoms together and just geeking out about what we love and what we love to hate.

Aditi: [laughs] Thanks for having me. It’s been fun – great fun.

[Outro music]

You’ve been listening to our episode on representations of diverse cultures in fantasy media. While editing this episode, Jack showed me a great example of encountering unfamiliar food from a different culture in one of his favourite shows Star Trek. Commander Riker participates in an officer cultural exchange programme and begins to understand the Klingon culture through its food. If, like me, you’re curious about checking it out – the episode is called A Matter of Honour. If you know of any other fictional examples of different cultures interacting with each other without the Western colonial perspective, I’d love to hear them! Thanks for such a fun conversation, Aditi. And thanks for all the editing and recommendations, Jack!

[Outro music]

You can now listen to Marginally Fannish on SpotifyAppleGoogle, or SoundCloud. I’d love to hear from you and talk to you – so any feedback, comments or critiques are very welcome! Get in touch with me on social media, leave a comment on my blog, or email me at edps@leeds.ac.uk. If you’d like to follow the podcast or the PhD project, visit my website marginallyfannish.org where you’ll find both the podcast episodes and the blog. You can also receive updates on Facebook or Instagram at Marginally Fannish or on Twitter where I’m @MarginalFannish. If you enjoyed the podcast, please share it with anyone you think will enjoy it too.

Thanks for listening! Tune in again next time for all things fannish and intersectional!

Episode 1 More Inclusive: The Journey of Three Indian Fangirls

Episode Resources:

For this episode, we looked at two texts:

Episode 52 of the Imaginary Worlds podcast – The Sorting Hat

The Last Jedi Killed My Childhood, and That’s Exactly Why It’s Great


Episode Transcript

This is a clean transcript of the episode. If you would prefer the original, unedited version, please let me know!

Photograph of a protest sign. Text says: Death Eater in the Ministry is not the part of Harry Potter I wanted true. #NoCAA #IndiaForAll

Image courtesy @batsaboutcats

[Intro music]

Welcome to Marginally Fannish, a show where we aim an intersectional lens at some of our favourite media and their fandoms.

[Intro music]

My name is Parinita Shetty and you’re listening to the pilot episode of my PhD fan podcast. In this episode, I talk about the role this podcast plays in my PhD project’s research methodology and the shape it’s going to take throughout this year. I’m joined by my co-hosts Sanjana Kapur and Aparna Kapur and we introduce our different fannish journeys as fans in India who largely consume Western media. We chat about our evolving ideas about fans and fandom, and how much we enjoy critiquing the things that we love. We also talk about how impossible it is to choose a favourite Time Lord in Doctor Who, how terribly biased the Harry Potter books are when it comes to glorifying Gryffindor and vilifying Slytherin, the problematic bits of our favourite Enid Blyton books which we only picked up on as adults, why the term “ruined my childhood” is not always a bad thing (though it mostly is!), and why a Hogwarts in India would require more cross-cultural connections between magical students and Muggle students who are both fighting fascism and trying to overthrow the government.

Happy listening!

[Intro music]

Parinita: Welcome to the pilot episode of Marginally Fannish. Now before we start, maybe it would be a good idea to introduce ourselves to people who don’t know who we are.

I’ll go first. My name is Parinita Shetty and I’m from Mumbai, India. And sometimes it really feels like I’m living two lives at the same time. And my Indian life is my real life and my current life in the UK is my sort of temporary fake life. And in India I write and work with children’s books and young people in many ways. And I first came to the UK in 2016 to study for a master’s in children’s literature. And I went to the University of Glasgow. And I fully planned that after my master’s I would go back to my real life in India. But when I was shortlisting topics for my master’s dissertation, I discovered this whole new academic field called fan studies where I found out that there are – there’s this group of academics who are fans themselves of different media and they study other fans and they study their favourite media. And this completely blew my mind because I’m a very fannish person but I had no idea that I could bring that aspect of my identity into academia. I had this idea of academia as this sort of ivory tower thing – very serious, doesn’t dabble with popular culture. So this was pretty cool. So for my master’s dissertation I ended up studying two Facebook fan pages of Harry Potter and Percy Jackson – both book series that I love – to research how participation in such online fan spaces develop critical literacy skills among the members. And I loved the project so much and I learned so much from it that I didn’t want to stop studying it. So I decided to come back to the UK – and I never thought I was going to do this – but I came back to do a PhD in Education and I’m currently at the University of Leeds where I’m this really weird researcher who sits in the corner and unlike all the other people in the department who are studying things like pedagogy and educational policy and how to teach English as a foreign language, I’m studying fan podcasts and online fan communities and creating my own fan podcast. So it’s really strange to explain to others how I make sense in that department. But anyway, that’s a longer than I hoped introduction of me. Do you want to go next Sana? Since you were partly responsible for bringing us together?

Sanjana: Yes. I was. With some cheating that was involved which we’ll get to later.

Parinita: [laughs] Yes.

Sanjana: But anyway, so I’m Sanjana as you have just mentioned. Sana to most because we’ll be referring to ourselves as how we call each other so Sana, just don’t get confused, that’s me. I also write for children like you do. And my main job is writing comics. And besides writing and editing and running behind my two-year-old, I absolutely love diving into different universes. I mean it’s like a meditative experience to binge a book or a show. It’s just everything else fades away. In fact, when we were kids, we used to play Star Wars, Star Wars and fight over being Luke Skywalker and like it was just a thing. And we tried sneaking in little things about things we are really big fans of like the book that Paru and I wrote together – Paru being Aparna – wrote together, we had like seven redheads playing around in a garden at some point. So I mean it’s there, it’s throwaway sentence but it’s there. So like we really dive in very well into like whatever we are reading and it just becomes a part of what we are doing in that moment. So yeah that’s a basic,  small introduction of me.

Book cover of Ruckus on the Road written by Aparna Kapur and Sanjana Kapur

Ruckus on the Road, written by Aparna Kapur and Sanjana Kapur

Parinita: By the way, while Sana said that we’re using the names that we call ourselves, everyone else except these two call me Pari. And I refer to myself as Pari. But to these two I will forever be Parinita.

Sanjana: Yes.

Aparna: Because Pari means fairy and we don’t just want to call you fairy. I don’t think you’ve earned that title.

Parinita: [laughs] Apparently I’ve not earned the title.

Sanjana: Grant us some wishes and then we’ll see.

Parinita: But also Sana, do you want to like –

Sanjana: Yes.

Parinita: Say –

Sanjana: Yeah so –

Parinita: What the connection between you and Paru is? Because I don’t think anybody who’s not our family and friends actually might know.

Sanjana: Yeah, so Aparna and I are sisters

Aparna: (gasps) What?!

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: Gasp!

[Everybody laughs]

Sanjana: Yeah. Which is why we could I think write a book together because otherwise we wouldn’t have ever been able to do that. I don’t think –

Aparna: It’s also why we became friends because Sana was feeling bad for me at a party.

Sanjana: Yeah this is true. So a little bit about how we became friends because that has a lot to do with the things that we are fans of and all these universes that we share across the oceans now. So our friendship began at a literature festival. We met Parinita and it just took off from there. And which led to a party at a common friend’s house, which was Nimmy. So it was a quiz party, we were doing quizzes and I was the quiz master. And how we actually got together was – so the teams were all different universes. We had Marvel sidekicks – not sidekicks. Marvel arm candy. Comics of the books arm candy.

Parinita: And Lord of the Rings characters I think as well?

Sanjana: Hobbits was one of the –

Parinita: Haan.

Sanjana: Yeah. Teams. I secretly slipped the chit to both of you because you both looked like you didn’t have any friends.

Aparna: [laughs]

Parinita: We didn’t! It was true. We really didn’t. I had accidentally invited myself to this party because I’d only met them the day before so yeah I didn’t have any friends there.

Sanjana: Yeah so I sort of cheated them to make friends with each other and … then over the years it’s just been one of those things that you know like Anne would say kindred spirits.

Kindred spirits are not so scarce as I used to think. It’s splendid to find out there are so many of them in the world.


Parinita: Yay!

Sanjana: So it’s just one of those things where – and we just realised how many things we loved which were just the same. And that we introduced each other to newer things and so yeah. Harry Potter, Game of Thrones, The Last

Parinita: Avatar.

Sanjana: Airbender – yeah. The Last Airbender. All of this has been discussed to death. This and more. Percy Jackson.

Parinita: Yeah.

Sanjana: And so yeah that’s basically the groundwork of our friendship. And Paru would you like to tell us –

Aparna: It’s too late! I’ve missed my chance to introduce myself. I’m Aparna. I am known in this circle as Paru. And also Fred sometimes because we give each other character names. And Parinita and I are Fred and George and Sana is Luna. I’m a writer and I’m a picture book editor. And I truly believe that all of life’s questions can be answered in children’s literature. And fiction has been my lens to deal with the world and also most of the friends that I have are imaginary that I have made in fiction. So it is a lifesaver for me.

Parinita: Paru, I’m real. I’m not imaginary. I know we thought this once upon a time –

Aparna: [laughs] We did!

Parinita: But I’m real. [laughs]

Parinita: I said most of my friends.

Sanjana: Just a small thing to add to how much our fandoms that we love and adore play a part in us because when we were backpacking across Rajasthan, we chose to celebrate our birthday by dressing up as different characters from all these –

Parinita: Yeah!

Sanjana: and roam around. So we did roam around with a towel in our hand because we were part of the Hitchhiker’s Guide

Parinita: Excuse me! I had committed the most because I walked around dressed in my pyjamas and a bathrobe, if you have forgotten.

Sanjana: Yes. So –

Parinita: I think your costume was – it was great, it was Sokka, the hat –

Sanjana: I wore a woolen hat in Rajasthan’s heat okay please!

Parinita: [laughs] It wasn’t hot! We went in November, how dare you.

Sanjana: It’s right – it’s a desert! It was hot during the day. Anyway –

Parinita: Paru, what were you? What had you dressed up as? I forgot.

Aparna: I don’t remember.

Parinita: Oh no, I do remember! It was Jayne, was it not? Firefly?

Sanjana: Hmm yes!

Aparna: Yeah, yeah Firefly! Firefly.

Sanjana: Ohhh Firefly! Another one of our –

Parinita: Yeah. Which you guys introduced me to.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: But anyway, now that we’ve talked so much about ourselves and I’m sure we’re going to talk about ourselves much more in the future as well, maybe I can just introduce the podcast and what we hope it’ll be.

Sanjana: Sure please go ahead

Parinita: So essentially, Marginally Fannish is a fan podcast and it aims an intersectional lens at some of our favourite media and their fandoms. And it’s also my PhD project. So I’m exploring the ways in which fandom in general and fan podcasts in particular can raise awareness about intersectionality by providing opportunities for people to express and access diverse intersectional perspectives. So when I had decided that I was going to study fan podcasts for my PhD early last year, and I realised that I really wanted to create my own fan podcast as a part of my research methodology, I knew that Paru and Sana had to be involved. So I’d volunteered them to my academic supervisors even before I’d asked them because I knew they would say yes. So I basically held them hostage to my expectations. But I’m really glad you guys said yes! And we’re doing this finally.

Sanjana: Yes.

Parinita: And one of the reasons I wanted to create a fan podcast was because I found that much like discussions of intersectionality, fan studies, fandom, existing fan podcasts largely seem to emerge from the US and the UK and the fans are also based in the US and the UK. So I thought that three Indian really fannish women talking about our favourite texts would be a really valuable contribution to diversifying the conversation, not only in academia but also within fandom. So apart from monthly episodes where the three of us are going to co-host and we’re going to rotate hosting duties, I also have a bunch of amazing guests from diverse backgrounds who have volunteered to participate in the podcast. So throughout the year I’m going to have regular conversations with these guests and with Paru and Sana about our favourite media and about our opinions and perspectives about intersectionality and like the diverse aspects of intersectionality. So I’m super excited to be able to do this and learn from all my co-participants about ideas I otherwise would not have thought about. What do you guys hope that this podcast is going to be? Paru, do you have any expectations or – what do you hope it’ll be?

Aparna: So I know this podcast will be immensely fun because it’s the three of us and that’s a given. But I’m hoping that it’ll help me look at things differently. So as a fan I’ve generally evolved a little bit in the last few years. And I’ve started being more critical of the things I love instead of just looking at them with blind adoration.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aparna: And I feel like this will be some more steps in that direction.

Parinita: No, I think that’s such a good point as well because like you I’ve also evolved like that. And I really find a lot of joy now in critiquing the things that I love. Like it doesn’t take away –

Sanjana: That’s very true, yeah.

Parinita: The enjoyment for me. Like I love critiquing it, if that makes sense.

Sanjana: Yeah this is – correct.

Aparna: I have –

Parinita: Sana, what about you?

Aparna: I have sorry –

Parinita: Oh yeah sorry.

Aparna: One more thing to add which I’m also hoping that it will restore my faith in humanity a little bit –

Parinita: Yeah.

Aparna: To see how people find a way to tell their stories no matter what.

Parinita: Aww! That’s a very good hope. I hope that happens to me as well.

Aparna: [laughs]

Parinita: My faith in humanity really needs some … yeah. Sana, what about you? Do you have any hopes for this podcast?

Sanjana: Yeah so just to go back a little bit to say when you asked us, we immediately – like I immediately said yes. Because it just seemed like the absolute right thing to – like it just felt so correct that –

Parinita: Yeah.

Sanjana: It was something that we instantly – so you were right to just assume.

Parinita: [laughs]

Sanjana: [laughs] And what Aparna is saying is right is that a lot of the times when we read stuff, we just – we love it at first sight because –

Parinita: Um hmm.

Sanjana: You know you fall in love with the characters without actually looking at anything else.

Parinita: Yeah.

Sanjana: And it’s a lot of fun to go back and re-read and then find little things that you probably missed at first glance. So I just feel this will do a lot to add to that little conversation. And I just hope that the podcast will get added to this larger discussion that is happening and from a completely different perspective. Because as you said there aren’t three Indian fannish women talking about reading.

Parinita: Yeah.

Sanjana: So yeah.

Parinita: And like I think for me that’s so important as well like what you said exactly. I tend to really fall in love with things when I first watch or read or encounter them. And I need some distance but I also need to know what other people are – like I need to know other perspectives as well of that thing. And I need to talk to other – like with you guys, we talk so much about the things we watch and the things we read.

Sanjana: Absolutely.

Parinita: And we get more ideas through our conversations. Which is another reason I started this fan podcast because that’s such an expression of how I engage with fandom. You know?

Sanjana: Yeah, absolutely.

Parinita: Yeah. So even though this podcast is my PhD project, I really wanted to try and minimise my control of it as much as possible, even though I’m ultimately in control of it. But to avoid making it an interview where I would largely choose the direction of the conversation, I thought that a discussion group of sorts would be a more democratic method. So before every episode, my co-hosts and guests and I, we’re going to exchange some fan texts or just media texts and this could be fanfiction or fan podcasts or even TV show episodes or memes – whatever. And in the episode, we’re going to use those texts more as discussion prompts than anything else so that they allow us room to talk about things that are important to us. And since I’m studying fan podcasts, I’ll mostly contribute fan podcast episodes. And there are so many brilliant fan podcasts out there. I really fell into this rabbit hole when I discovered fan podcasts in I think January 2019. And as much as I would love to listen to all the fan podcasts that exist, there aren’t enough days, there aren’t enough hours. Like I can spend my whole life and there are new fan podcasts coming out – I just couldn’t do it. So I’ve tried to control my project and control my life. And I’m looking at Harry Potter and Doctor Who fan podcasts because I’m definitely a member of both fandoms. I love Harry Potter, I love Doctor Who. And I’m going to be immersing myself in a selection of Harry Potter and Doctor Who fan podcasts which I’m going to put up on my website. And to shortlist those episodes which are sort of related to the intersectional themes I’m looking at. And the intersectional themes that I’m currently looking at are gender, race, class, ethnicity, gender identity and gender expression, sexual orientation, physical or mental disability, national or regional origin, religion, and age. Though of course our conversations won’t be restricted to just these themes and I’m very open to feedback from co-participants or from listeners to this podcast based on which I’ll happily edit or expand this list. And I’m mostly using Harry Potter and Doctor Who, like I mentioned, to make my life easier. But obviously we’re not going to limit our conversations to just these two fandoms because we love way too many stories for that. And in fact among the three of us, only two of us are actually Doctor Who fans. So Sana, what do you actually know about Doctor Who?

Sanjana: Uhhh so I know there is –I know he, now and she, has two hearts. Am I right?

Aparna: Yes.

Sanjana: Okay.

Parinita: Yeah!

Sanjana: Is this [laughs] is this relevant? Like is there – has ever a Doctor been shot in one heart?

Aparna: Yes!

Parinita: I think – Yes. Once there was – the heart was a thing. But it’s not like a huge part of the –

Aparna: Sometimes when you least expect it, it just –

Parinita: Yeah.

Aparna: Is a throwaway line. Like this only like –

Parinita: Yeah.

Aparna: People are like, “Oh no! You’re going to die!” And then he’s just like, “Okay, it’s okay. I have two hearts.”

Parinita: Yeah.

Sanjana: I’m surprised it’s been used only once. I would have –

Aparna: Or like generally he makes comments like, “Just one heart? You humans are so weird.” Like that.

Parinita: [laughs] Yeah. I think with David Tennant, there was like – the hearts played a major plot point but like I have a terrible memory and I haven’t re-watched the series yet for research. Because I get to watch Doctor Who again and read Harry Potter again for research!

Sanjana: Well –

Parinita: I love my project.

Sanjana: Please so if I can tell you what else I know.

Aparna: Yeah.

Parinita: Yeah.

Sanjana: So two hearts play an imp – apparently not so important. So they time travel in something called the TARDIS.

Aparna: Yes.

Sanjana: And the TARDIS, I believe, works sort of like Hermione’s tents and bags. It’s large –

Aparna: It’s bigger on the inside!

Parinita: It is bigger on the inside. Like Mary Poppins’s bag as well.

Sanjana: Yeah, yeah. Correct. So okay that I got right then.

Parinita: Yeah.

Sanjana: And I assumed – I don’t know why I have this feeling that there are some evil robots that keep coming.

Aparna: [laughs]

Sanjana: Am I right in assuming that?

Aparna: There are Daleks.

Parinita: I think – which ones? No, I was thinking of Cybermen. So which evil robots?

Aparna: Oh yeah Cybermen!

Sanjana: Oh! More than one!

Aparna: Are you talking about the ones that say “Exterminate!” [Paru does a great Dalek impression] Because those are Daleks.

Sanjana: Yeah I think that is what because I think most of my Doctor Who what do you call it –

Aparna: Knowledge.

Sanjana: Knowledge comes from the fact that Abed in Community was watching that –

Parinita: [laughs]

Aparna: Oh my god!

Sanjana: It’s sort of funny that I have my information from a make-believe fan.

Parinita: Inspector Spacetime!

Aparna: Yeah! I was trying to remember the name.

Parinita: [laughs] Amazing!

Gif of Abed and Britta, characters from the TV show Community. Text says: "It's a British Sci-Fi series that's been on the air since 1962!"

Sanjana: Okay. I’ve seen an episode here and there. There was one about an artist who … which one … I’m guessing there’s been more than one artist.

Parinita: Was it Picasso?

Aparna: No, it was Vincent Van Gogh. Did you cry at the end of the episode?

Sanjana: I’m not so sure.

Parinita: Ohhh. That was a very sad episode.

Aparna: Yeah!

Sanjana: The artist saw a demon … some sort of demons, which is why his paintings were the way they were?

Parinita: I think you’re talking about the same episode but I – I can’t remember enough details about it to confirm or deny.

Sanjana: Anyway, so I thought I would ask you guys if you – have I missed something major which I should know? I know there are companions. He/she travels with people.

Aparna: Yes.

Parinita: Yeah.

Sanjana: And they die and get replaced or go away.

Aparna: [laughs] They die and get replaced!

Parinita: [laughs]

Sanjana: Or they give up the job and somebody else comes in.

Parinita: Nobody gives up their job!

Aparna: Some horrible things.

Parinita: I think somebody did give up their job.

Sanjana: I think we talked about them giving up their job once. So I’ve been part of several Doctor Who conversations on WhatsApp.

Aparna: This happens to me with Grey’s Anatomy.

Parinita: Yeah that’s true.

Sanjana: So anyway. Okay.

Aparna: Okay.

Sanjana: So this is as much as my knowledge goes I think. Yeah.

Parinita: Yeah that’s pretty good. Do you know how many Doctors there were? So far.

Sanjana: Twelve? Thirteen?

Parinita: Like I don’t know the exact number either because I –

Sanjana: Thirteen. So –

Parinita: My Doctor started from the –

Aparna: It’s thirteen.

Parinita: Christopher –

Aparna: Thirteen Doctors.

Parinita: Oh yeah the Thirteenth Doctor yeah. Oh yes, yes.

Aparna: She’s called thirteenth! How are you confused about this?

Sanjana: Okay.

Parinita: Because my memory is very bad. I couldn’t remember whether it was eleven … whether it was twelve …

Aparna: So there was a War Doctor no in between. Remember?

Parinita: Yeah, yeah.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Aparna: So technically –

Parinita: So that’s fourteen no it should be?

Sanjana: Yeah.

Aparna: Yeah.

Sanjana: So I have a couple of questions okay which helps me understand this a little more.

Aparna: Hmm.

Sanjana: If you guys would oblige.

Aparna: Yes.

Parinita: Yes.

Sanjana: Who’s your favourite Doctor? So that I know when he/she comes up and –

Parinita: Oh no! What a terrible question that is!

Aparna: This is not a throwaway question that we can answer. We need an entire episode.

Sanjana: Okay. So we’ll come back to it.

Parinita: That’s – that’s such a complicated

Sanjana: Which –

Parinita: Complex

Sanjana: Which –

Parinita: Heartbreaking question!

Aparna: [laughs]

Sanjana: Oh my good lord. This has opened up so many emotions. I apologise. I apologise for the question. But I will come back to this question … Or maybe you love too many?

Aparna: Yeah, too many.

Parinita: I love them all!

Sanjana: Top three?

Parinita: Uhhh …

Sanjana: Would that be easier to answer?

Parinita: That’s even worse somehow.

Aparna: Yeah.

Sanjana: Okay. I have –

Parinita: Top three? What about the other two then? This is terrible.

Sanjana: Alright. So okay I have another question.

Aparna: Okay.

Sanjana: Which of the Doctors is most like a Slytherin?

Aparna: Ohhh!

Parinita: Ohhh.

Sanjana: Hmm.

Parinita: I think it might be Peter Capaldi.

Aparna: Yeah even I was going to say that.

Gif of Peter Capaldi as the Doctor. The text says: Google it.

Parinita: Or maaaybe – yeah I think it would be Peter Capaldi. Even though like just some Slytherin qualities.

Aparna: Yeah, very few.

Sanjana: Good enough.

Parinita: Yeah.

Sanjana: Uh –

Parinita: I think there are companions who have more Slytherin qualities than the Doctor really.

Aparna: That’s true.

Sanjana: Well. No wonder they keep getting changed.

Aparna: Oh god!

Sanjana: I don’t know why I have this notion that the companions move a lot faster than the –

Aparna: Not always okay.

Sanjana: Who’s had the most number of companions?

Aparna: Oh.

Parinita: I think it was Matt Smith?

Aparna: Did he really? They stayed for a really long time. Amy and Rory.

Parinita: Yeah but then he had Clara.

Sanjana: Okay.

Parinita: And did he not have River as well at some point?

Aparna: Oh that’s – Clara was the one who spilled into the next Doctor.

Parinita: Yeah.

Sanjana: Alright. Similarly I want to know who the most uh Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw and Gryffindor are.

Aparna: I feel like the Tenth Doctor, David Tennant, was most Gryffindor ‘cause he would just charge into things.

Parinita: Oh really? I feel like he was more Ravenclaw. Because he seems – like didn’t he have that line about books as well? And he seemed more, to me, cerebral and Christopher Eccleston seemed more Gryffindor to me because he always –

Gif of David Tennant as the Doctor walking towards a bookshelf. Text says: Books. Best weapons in the world.

Gif of Christopher Eccleston as the Doctor. Text says: Fantastic!

Sanjana: Hmm.

Parinita: But like yeah, different interpretations.

Aparna: Yeah.

Parinita: Matt Smith, Hufflepuff.

Aparna: Matt Smith, Hufflepuff.

Gif of Matt Smith as the Doctor. Text says: Yeah, it's cool. Bowties are cool.

Sanjana: I was very sure you guys would –

Aparna: No brainer.

Sanjana: would say that.

Aparna: He is just Hufflepuff.

Parinita: He is very Hufflepuff. What about Jodie?

Aparna: He makes people want to be Hufflepuff.

Parinita: I think Jodie is also Hufflepuff.

Aparna: I think she’s a bit Ravenclaw.

Gif of Jodie Whittaker as the Doctor. Text says: Is anyone excited? 'Cause I'm really excited.

Parinita: That’s true. She could be a RavenPuff! Like me!

Aparna: Oh!

Sanjana: Oh we are – we are

Aparna: We have moved on to RavenPuffs, I see.

Sanjana: Okay, moving on, like you said, like you moved. What houses were you guys Sorted in?

Aparna: Uh so –

Parinita: By ourselves? Or by like a website?

Sanjana: Yeah, a website. By Pottermore.

Parinita: I have always been Sorted as Ravenclaw in any website quiz that I do.

Sanjana: Oh well.

Parinita: What about you, Paru?

Aparna: So I always believed I was Ravenclaw. But I was very firmly Sorted into Gryffindor. So much so that my … what’s it called … the animal? Sorry!

Sanjana: The Patronus?

Parinita: Griffin?

Aparna: Patronus was also a lion. Which I think is overkill.

Parinita: Oh!

Aparna: But anyway. I do think I’m a little bit Gryffindor. I’ve come to adopt that.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aparna: Yeah.

Parinita: Okay.

Sanjana: I –

Parinita: What about you Sana?

Sanjana: If anybody wants to know was Sorted into Slytherin. And I’m owning it. Because after being a bit distraught that I couldn’t take – you can’t take the quiz again and like try and be in another one. So I –

Parinita: Can you not?

Sanjana: No, I don’t think –

Aparna: No, you can’t.

Sanjana: That is – arey! You cannot change Houses once you’re Sorted.

Parinita: [laughs] That was a very Slytherin thing of me to say.

Aparna: [laughs]

Parinita: Like oh try again! What’s there?

Sanjana: Anyway, so I am owning it. I –

Parinita: Yeah you should.

Sanjana: Have many Slytherin qualities. Qualities.

Parinita: Like what? What do you think is Slytherin about you?

Sanjana: Hmmm – I um … huh. I don’t know whether I should be so upfront as to tell you what my qualities are. It’s better –

Parinita: Yeah, you’re definitely a Slytherin. [laughs]

Aparna: [laughs]

Sanjana: It’s better that you don’t see them coming. And if you’re asking this question, then I’ve been masking them well. So I think I’ll just –

Parinita: I mean listen, as much as it feels like we’re just talking to the three of us, hopefully there’ll be other people who listen to our podcast and it’s not just our friends and our families. So –

Sanjana: Yeah, this is true.

Parinita: You know maybe other people might want to know what Slytherin qualities you’re owning. I think you’re ambitious.

Aparna: Yeah.

Parinita: I think that’s one –

Sanjana: Hmm. Okay.

Parinita: Slytherin quality. Yeah.

Sanjana: Alright.

Parinita: And that’s a good quality, I think.

Aparna: Yeah and she is also – she likes to plan things.

Parinita: Oh!

Sanjana: What – what details! [laughs]

Aparna: So instead of like confronting someone, she will come up with a cunning plan to –

Sanjana: This is true.

Aparna: Get them to –

Sanjana: Yeah.

Aparna: Admit something.

Sanjana: Yeah, this is true. I am very conniving. Without the other person realising. So I think I’m – yeah. This is true.

Parinita: Ahh! Okay.

Sanjana: The other person won’t see it coming.

Parinita: You own it. You own your Slytherinness.

Sanjana: Yeah. So anyway.

Aparna: Yeah so Sana wears her Slytherinness as a badge of honour. But there is definitely a bias in the way the books are written.

Parinita: Yeah. Absolutely.

Aparna: There is– yeah, so like most people’s reaction to being Sorted in Slytherin is that, “Oh I don’t want to tell you what I’ve been Sorted in.” Is the kind of reaction that I’ve seen people giving me. Or they like overplay their Slytherinness or something. But usually it’s just something that people don’t discuss.

Sanjana: No, but this is true. It took me a while to own Slytherin until –

Parinita: Yeah.

Sanjana: You know you guys convinced me to like say that, “Ohhh Slytherin has great qualities!” And I was like, “Hmm!”

Parinita: But no, it’s like the books themselves, they are so Gryffindor focused. Like –

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: Even if you don’t identify as any of the qualities that Gryffindor has, but – because they’re written from that perspective – like in school, I was in the Red House. Like we had like four houses. And so the Red House – Gryffindor obviously. And I was so proud of that and I was so – I was like “Yes! We’re Gryffindor!” and I used to look at Green House very suspiciously because you know Slytherin. And it was only in fandom when I – because otherwise Yellow House is just like miscellaneous. Like you know they don’t really –

Aparna: Yeah.

Parinita: There’s no like whatever qualities that seem to be really a part in the protagonists or anything. And Ravenclaw okay, smart house. But there’s no depth to that. It’s just like the smart house.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: So Luna Lovegood is such an interesting character. Like I love Luna.

Sanjana: Um hmm.

Parinita: And even like in the first book, like do you remember? I think it was in other books as well. But when Slytherin loses the House Cup, all three Houses – like it’s not just Gryffindor.

Aparna: Everyone cheers!

Parinita: Yeah! Which like can you imagine it – that happening to you like everyone seems to hate you so much that they’re standing on their feet, stamping and cheering and –

Aparna: Yeah.

Parinita: I mean no wonder they hate everybody and they’re so grumpy.

Sanjana: No, but so the books were also preceded by the fact that they had been winning the House Cup for aeons like uh they had –

Parinita: Okay! Theek hai like still.

Sanjana: Theek hai na! So I mean it’s not only because they – I think they would have cheered enough even if it was someone else winning the Cup. It’s just the – they –

Parinita: Okay so but –

Sanjana: Just wanted someone else to win

Parinita: Okay no so like one of the fan texts that we looked at – the three of us looked at this week, for this episode – was an Imaginary Worlds podcast episode called The Sorting Hat which I’ll link to in the show notes. And in that it a really interesting point was brought up which – in the seventh book, during the war when like the Hogwarts battle, the Slytherins are all taken like … they’re all what locked in the basement or something? Just because –

Aparna: Dungeons.

Parinita: The teachers and all don’t trust them – that they don’t trust that they’re going to fight on their side. And the person in the podcast made a comparison to the Japanese internment camps in the US. Which I thought was really interesting. Had you guys heard about the Japanese internment camps before?

Sanjana: No, no I hadn’t.

Aparna: No, not in detail.

Parinita: Like I also know very little about it. But like from what I know it’s through like the internet and like through other passing references. But essentially during the Second World War, after Pearl Harbour was bombed and – don’t quote me on this – but like this is what I’ve gleaned from just the internet conversations – is that they had built camps in the US and like Japanese-Americans and Japanese citizens were bundled up into these camps because they thought that the citizens who were staying there would betray them to Japan. And so that was why the comparison here I thought was so powerful almost because it was – yeah like why would you just assume that the Slytherins don’t – will not be on your – sure, some of them yeah because their parents are Death Eaters. But surely you can’t expect all the Slytherins – all their parents are Death Eaters? Like then what does that say about the series? The house?

Aparna: Yeah. And also just like the fact that all Death Eaters were Sly – like there was –

Parinita: Yeah.

Aparna: No evil character other than a Slytherin.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: Well there was Peter Pettigrew. We should have said spoilers in the beginning. But yeah.

Aparna: You should have a blanket spoilers –

Parinita: You know he’s Gryffindor but yeah you’re right. Everyone else is a Slytherin.

Aparna: Yeah. But in general, what is your take on the whole Sorting thing? Like they discuss this in the episode as well whether it’s a good thing or a bad thing. And what do you guys think? Is it something that helps build camaraderie or is it something that is more divisive than not? What do you guys think?

Parinita: Hmm well I actually really liked the Sorting. And even when I was in school, I liked having that sort of community because I’m not a really very competitive person in general.

Sanjana: Hmm.

Parinita: But I like that sort of you know like in sporting events, just shouting – it’s almost like –

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: Donning this cloak of competitiveness for that time being and you know just for the – it doesn’t really matter to me in the end. But it’s fun to just cheer and like be a part of this community and like have this group feeling where we’re all working towards the same thing.

Sanjana: No and going by that I really love having something to root for like –

Parinita: Hmm.

Sanjana: You know I like saying that yes, I’m rooting for this team or character or something. And that sort of maybe did that to what the Sorting held. And we through our school years, it was something that I immediately identified with as you were saying. We were also – we also had Houses all through school years. And so it was something that – it was very you know like, haan, yeh toh – It’s correct. So –

Parinita: Do you think the House systems that our schools had was like a leftover of the British education system?

Sanjana: Probably.

Parinita: Because I went to a Catholic school like I went to a convent school. So mine was very clearly – like our Houses, it was red, yellow, blue, green. But they each had saints’ names and I don’t remember what saints.

Sanjana: Yeah toh we also had red, yellow, blue, green. And we were

Aparna: Scientists.

Sanjana: Yeah we were scientists in one of the –

Parinita: Ohhh!

Sanjana: We changed schools a lot so we had Aryabhatta and –

Aparna: Hey, no I thought we were Edison.

Sanjana: Raman house, Edison yeah. Edison was Blue House.

Parinita: Hmm.

Sanjana: Yeah we had those and – no but in one of our schools, we also had –

Aparna: Chanakya

Sanjana: Chanakya and Ashoka. So –

Parinita: Oh! Hmm.

Sanjana: There were kings at some point.

Parinita: Ohhh!

Sanjana: Yeah and we went to non-convent schools. But the colours were pretty standard I think.

Parinita: What about you, Paru? What do you think about the house systems?

Aparna: So if it’s as random as when we were Sorted into houses in school – not Sorted [laughs] just assigned houses. But the Sorting seems very personality dependent. And I feel like maybe that’s not a great idea to like Sort people according to houses based on some qualities that they have.

Sanjana: Hmm.

Parinita: But that’s what I really liked in the episode that they brought up which was that even though you think that Gryffindor is all like all the brave people go into Gryffindor and all the … evil people apparently go into Slytherin. But it’s actually – so in that episode, how that person talked about, that there are qualities that Gryffindor would need more of. So, for example, Hermione brings the Gryffindor – Ravenclaw qualities to Gryffindor.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: And Luna brings Hufflepuff qualities to Ravenclaw. And Ron brings Hufflepuff as well.

Sanjana: This Sorting Hat is a rather you know –

Aparna: Genius.

Sanjana: Genius, yeah.

Parinita: [laughs]

Sanjana: Sitting there, talking, and hmming and hawing, but yeah. Very smart.

Parinita: I think I would love a Sorting Hat in real life. Like you know just to put it on people’s heads and so I don’t have to figure out whether this person is good or not. Just let the Sorting Hat do – but I suppose good is relative and like you can’t really judge.

Aparna: Yeah.

Sanjana: Yeah. You just went right back into the Slytherin –

Parinita: No, look, some of my best friends are Slytherins! [laughs] I like Slytherins.

Sanjana: Yes.

Aparna: So in general, the way that British literature has influenced our lives, I want to talk a little bit more about that. Like we grew up completely on Enid Blyton and British literature was the only literature we read for a long time. So for a long time we didn’t even realise that things like what Enid Blyton would have at a picnic, that food was more fascinating to us than whatever we were getting. Everyone at picnics would want to take like lemonade and sandwiches and cucumber sandwiches and whatever.

Parinita: Hardboiled eggs with a twist of salt.

Aparna: Yeah.

Sanjana: Which in real life is quite drab.

Parinita: Yeah, no, honestly, it is! And like I read later that – so she was writing right after and during the Second World War, right? And after that, in the UK, they had rationing, like they had shortages of food and stuff. So she was really trying to make all the – like the heavy focus of food in her books?

Sanjana: Haan.

Parinita: Was sort of a response to that. But it was also simple food. So it wasn’t anything that was fancy. But like she was sort of almost exoticising the simple like and to get kids to –

Sanjana: Ohhh.

Parinita: Yeah like her readers to be happier I suppose with their lot.

Sanjana: Just be happy with your boiled eggs.

Parinita: Yeah. [laughs]

Aparna: I don’t know if it worked for kids in the UK, but it certainly worked on us.

Sanjana: Yeah, definitely.

Parinita: When I first came to the UK, like I was on an Enid Blyton adventure. And again, like even the pronunciation – so Paru, I noticed that you said Enid. And I grew up saying Enid as well [pronounces Ehn-id]. But here, in the UK, everyone says Enid Blyton [pronounces Een -id]. And like now it’s this sort of mixed thing in my head. Like what do I pronounce? Because one of my biggest fears is returning to India from the UK with an accent. So I’m like very concerned that I’m going to develop an accent and come back so I’m like always on my guard against that. But even like Enid Blyton now or Enid [pronounces Ehn rather than Een] Blyton now is considered super unfashionable because of some of her ideas about –

Aparna: Which –

Parinita: the anti-foreigner, and like racist. Which we never even picked up on.

Aparna: Yeah, exactly. For a long time, we didn’t. And now when we go back to it, if I go back to some of the old books, sometimes I find so many problems in it.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aparna: Like how did I not see this as a problem while growing up?

Sanjana: But this is where the whole thing of how we change as fans comes in you know.

Parinita: But even the gender politics and stuff like was so problematic.

Sanjana: Absolutely! Yeah.

Parinita: In the thing yeah it’s –

Sanjana: Yeah.

Aparna: Actually, growing up, mostly I’ve always identified or wanted to be more the the –

Sanjana: Boy characters.

Aparna: Male characters in the books. They just seemed to be having more fun all the time. Whenever I would pretend to be a character in my mind, which is what I do when reading a book, I would always either make up a new character and insert her into the story or I’d just identify most with one of the boy characters in the story. And –

Parinita: Yeah because like the girl characters were always sort of relegated to like doing housework and you know like Anne in Famous Five, poor thing –

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: Had to always look after the food.

Sanjana: They were the ones boiling the eggs and packing up the lunch.

[Everyone laughs]

Book cover of The Famous Five: Five On A Treasure Island written by Enid Blyton

Five On A Treasure Island, written by Enid Blyton

Parinita: And the only girls that were having fun wanted to be boys. So there was like George and Jo. They didn’t want to be girls.

Sanjana: Absolutely. Yeah.

Aparna: Yeah.

Sanjana: Which we didn’t question so like …

Parinita: Ooh I read a really very interesting fan theory or at least fan interpretation of George being actually a trans boy. So that was her way of sort of dealing with her identity.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: Which I thought was very cool.

Aparna: Yeah, that is very cool.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Aparna: Oh another change that I’ve seen in myself as a fan is that I used to be very exclu – I used to not want to include people. Like if people would say “Oh I’ve only watched the Harry Potter movies,” then I would judge them very harshly. Or if people would say, “Oh I only started watching Doctor Who from the Eleventh Doctor onwards,” or something, then I would be like, “Oh you don’t – you can’t have an opinion on so-and-so.” But in the last few years, I feel like I’ve become more inclusive, in that anyone is entitled to be a fan of anything and have an opinion on it. And it’s just such a friendly space – it can be such a friendly space. And I feel like that’s one of the changes I’ve noticed in myself. What about you guys? How have your fan journeys changed?

Parinita: I think for me that sort of like I gatekeeped – gatekept – I don’t know what the past tense is. But I was a gatekeeper to myself more than anything. Like I feel like I needed to prove to myself that I was a fan by being a completist. So I was like I have to like, like you’re saying, with Doctor Who or with anything else, like I have to know everything about the world to then consider myself a fan. And if I don’t know everything about Harry Potter, or if like I don’t know all the references and whatever or don’t remember them, then like of course, I can’t be a true fan. And now just even the term true fan is so abhorrent to me because –

Sanjana: Yeah!

Aparna: Yeah!

Parinita: Everybody is a true fan! It doesn’t matter like how you know – And another way I think I’ve changed is that like earlier I would be very much on the writer’s side, I think, when I was younger. Or the creator’s side. And now I think that if you’ve created something that’s so popular and it’s so beloved by so many people, it no longer belongs to you. Like if you want to be the only person who decides the interpretations and decides you know what’s allowed and what’s not in your world, then you don’t release it out into the world. You know –

Sanjana: Yeah.

Aparna: Yeah.

Parinita: You just sort of keep it to yourself. But like once it’s out there, so for example –

Aparna: It belongs to everyone.

Parinita: Yeah! Like J. K. Rowling – now she’s done and said some really problematic things which have really made some fans upset. And I’m sure we’re going to talk about that in later episodes. But I understand why fans are upset and I understand why they feel like it’s like this huge shock to their childhood and childhood memories. But for me, I really firmly believe that it’s no longer just hers. It’s everybody’s. And even if she is sort of – like you don’t have to like her to like the books and to like you know what they did to you when you were a kid or even now.

Sanjana: Yeah, you’ve made some great points there because I found myself nodding quite vigorously.

Aparna: There’s this one very interesting article I read on a website that I follow quite religiously called iO9.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Aparna: And it was after The Last Jedi was released and the headline was quite dramatic. Of how The Last Jedi killed my childhood. But when I read it, it was just such a mature take on how the author felt because he’d grown up watching the Star Wars films, so he said it was like the end of an era for me because all the work that Luke and Leia and Han had done, to build up like the whole story that I watched and worshipped for so long, it actually meant nothing because the Dark Side was still there and has come back more powerful than ever. So in that sense it feels like a lost childhood. But just seeing all these new characters and just the way the story has changed and the whole new medley of characters, it gave him such joy to see that now people who are starting to watch Star Wars through these movies will get a whole new bunch of people to look at the way he had Luke and Leia and Han. And it won’t be just like his story. You know what I mean?

Sanjana: Yeah.

Aparna: Which I found – it was a very interesting way of looking at it.

Parinita: No, it was a really good article. And again, I’ll link that –that was another of the texts all three of us read and I’ll link to that in the transcript. But what that made me think of like he also talked about how the term “ruined my childhood” can be such a contentious one –

Aparna: Yeah.

Sanjana: Hmm.

Parinita: Because you know?

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: And I was thinking of that especially in terms of when like Harry Potter like I said because a lot of people do feel like their childhoods are ruined and you know like I can completely understand where they’re coming from. But on the other hand, there’s also the Doctor Who fandom. And luckily, I haven’t really been a part of the more toxic bits of that fandom. Just –

Sanjana: Right.

Parinita: Because of the spaces that I inhabit and the sort of people that I talk to about Doctor Who. But I know that there are places online where people are really upset at the increasing diversity in Doctor Who. Like not just –

Aparna: Yeah.

Parinita: Not just Jodie, the Thirteenth Doctor, but also like the companions now and the themes that they’re exploring – there are more black, brown faces. And they think that it’s just trying to be progressive and trying to be diverse –

Sanjana: Right.

Parinita: As a political like thing. But like diversity isn’t a political issue. Like it is now but why like – surely diversity is just, like, life? Like you know like marginalised people who don’t recognise themselves in mainstream media, they do exist. Their existence is not a political point. But it seems to create such a sort of political stance that oh if you think diversity is good, you must be like you know a certain – like you must be left-wing

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: Or you must be progressive. And it’s said in such a – it’s almost an insult. Whereas like diversity is – it’s good. And like Paru was saying, with the article and like Star Wars, I would not want to go back to Doctor Who, the original. Like you know the one that came out in the 60s and 70s. I tried. I watched the first few episodes. And it just – I couldn’t engage with it at all. And like that was when I was like no I need to complete – like watch the old Doctor Who series to then start watching the new series, and then I was like, look, life is too short.

Aparna: Yeah, yeah.

Parinita: I can’t do this! I can’t go through –

Aparna: The same thing happened to me.

Parinita: So – and like the new show, like not just the one that started like with Christopher Eccleston, but with Jodie, it’ll draw so many new people into –

Aparna: Exactly.

Sanjana: Absolutely.

Parinita: So many new kids and adults. And why should that be a bad thing? It’s like you know so “ruined my childhood” – they think that diversity ruined their childhood. Or becoming left-wing or political for the sake of becoming political. But like yeah. So that’s I think a term that can be done away with in most contexts.

Aparna: Correct. Yeah.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Aparna: So one interesting – during the discussion leading up to this episode, both you and Sana brought up in different ways, is to imagine what Hogwarts would be like in India. So what are your thoughts on that?

Sanjana: I for one don’t think we would have had to wait for – when does Umbridge come? In the fifth book no?

Aparna: [laughs]

Parinita: Yeah, yes.

Sanjana: Yeah I don’t think we would have had to wait till the fifth book for an Umbridge situation to appear on the scene in India.

Parinita: No.

Sanjana: I feel that the decrees –

Parinita: I think that Snape was also a pretty terrible teacher.

Sanjana: Who?

Parinita: Snape.

Sanjana: Haan.

Aparna: Yeah he was a terrible teacher.

Sanjana: He was a terrible teacher. But then he had stuff going on. I think.

Parinita: Well please! I mean okay, no need to take it out on poor Neville who is just trying to life his life, trying to look after Trevor.

Sanjana: Chucked into Gryffindor, trying to be brave and he’s like, “Should I have been here?”

Aparna: So sad.

Sanjana: Anyway. I feel like we would have had a lot more decrees nailed to the wall a lot sooner if it was in India.

Parinita: I think it also depends on when – like what era of India is Hogwarts like are we looking – oh or not Hogwarts I guess, an Indian magical school, whatever it would be called. If it’s happening now or if it’s happening when the Harry Potter books happened which I think would both be really interesting but also really terrible because the 1990s are not a really great time – early 90s –

Aparna: Yeah.

Parinita: In India. And currently also it’s not a great time.

Sanjana: Not a great time, yeah. So I was going to ask you, when would have been a great time to put it?

Parinita: I think both. Actually both times would have been a great time because like this bunch of students getting together secretly to resist fascism and to overthrow the government.

Photograph of a protest sign. Text says: Death Eater in the Ministry is not the part of Harry Potter I wanted true. #NoCAA #IndiaForAll

Image courtesy batsaboutcats from a December 2019 protest in Azad Maidan, Mumbai, against the National Register of Citizens and the Citizenship Amendment Act

Sanjana: Absolutely.

Aparna: Yeah!

Parinita: You know?

Sanjana: I think the Harry Potter like a Hogwarts in today’s scenario would be very helpful.

Parinita: Yeah! I mean like they could collaborate with the Muggles and you know like the Muggles and you know the Muggle students and the wizarding –

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: Like one of the things I think in Harry Potter, which I didn’t realise at the time when I was reading it, but now through conversations in fandom and stuff, like the hierarchy like they talk nicely about like egalitarianism and all are – all people are equal and you know like oh yeah Mudbloods are people too and things like that. And giants and house elves and everything. But still Muggles are still much lower on the hierarchy. Like there’s – like there’s this really paternalistic attitude like wizards and witches are –

Aparna: Yeah.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: Better than Muggles and you know?

Aparna: Yeah.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Parinita: So maybe in the Indian sort of scenario, there could be more cross-cultural links between Muggles and like whatever they would be called in India. Because I know in North America, they’re called No-Majs. [snorts]

Sanjana: Yeah that’s a terrible one. I’m sorry but that’s terrible.

Parinita: No, no you know what is terrible? It is – what’s more terrible – well, maybe not more terrible but equally terrible is that in the Cursed Child, whose kid?

Aparna: Yes!

Parinita: Was it Parvati’s kid?

Aparna: Panju!

Parinita: Panju!

Sanjana: Yes! Oh my god yes!

Aparna: Why do people think those are the sort of names we have?!

Parinita: It’s not even a real name! I mean like what? Is he – is the father from Punjab?

Sanjana: Like if –

Parinita: Like is it a nickname? What’s happening?

Sanjana: It was Ron’s kid! It was –

Parinita: Was it?!

Sanjana: Ron’s kid! Ron’s kid.

Parinita: You’re right! It was an alternative timeline.

Aparna: Ohhh.

Sanjana: Yeah

Parinita: Again spoilers.

Sanjana: Yeah. But I just would like to say that this means terrible – like even if you had blinked an iota of a research, you would have found a better name. Like it’s like –

Parinita: But that’s like –

Sanjana: It has got to be on purpose.

Parinita: No but remember the Neil Gaiman’s book? I forget the name

Book cover of Cinnamon written by Neil Gaiman

Cinnamon, written by Neil Gaiman and illustrated by Divya Srinivasan

Aparna: Cinnamon!

Parinita: Cinnamon! Like yeah that’s what we name our children in India. Cinnamon!

Sanjana: Yeah like ice creams.

Aparna: [laughs]

Parinita: Like what would you name them in the UK? It would be like naming a kid Fish And Chips or something. Like or Haggis, I don’t know. Like it’s just so ridiculous!

Sanjana: If there was an Indian Hogwarts we would have like people, like we should have like a little roll call of the Indian things and have the foreign students’ names just for kicks –

Aparna: I actually would really like to get to know someone called Haggis.

Parinita: [laughs] I’ll try and work on that.

Aparna: Thank you.

Parinita: Like put out a call on Scottish Twitter: “Hello! Any Haggises around?”

Aparna: [laughs]

Sanjana: Anyway I think this brings us to –

Aparna: Yeah.

Sanjana: The end of our –

Parinita: Um hmm.

Sanjana: Our –

Aparna: Episode. Next week we’re going to be talking about race.

Parinita: Yes. And lots of different sort of aspects of race –

Sanjana: Yeah sort of.

Parinita: Among us and in India.

Sanjana: And sort of taking off from our last discussion of Hogwarts, I think we would like to dive a little more into that in the next episode. So –

Parinita: Yes.

Sanjana: Yeah. So.

Parinita: So hopefully this was a helpful start to introducing what the podcast will be about. And I’m really excited to talk to you guys about – and be angry about things that we hate in the things that we love.

Sanjana: Yes.

Aparna: Yes.

Sanjana: We shall do this.

Parinita: So I’ll talk to you next time.

Sanjana: Yeah.

Aparna: Alright.

Parinita: Bye!

Aparna: Okay, bye!

Sanjana: Bye!

[Outro music]

Thank you so much Paru and Sana for being a part of this PhD experiment with me and for always being there when I need to discuss shocking plot twists or geek out about my new favourite thing. I had so much fun chatting to them that I nearly forgot I was doing this for Proper Academic Research. And a huge thank you to Jack McInally for helping me with the editing!

Since this a PhD project in Education, as a researcher I’m really interested in the process of creation, that is how as a podcast newbie, I’m learning on the fly by experimenting and playing around. So please bear with the awkward bits – I hope we get better as time goes on! This is also why I haven’t edited out my inadvertent mention of the term Mudblood though I’ve felt guilty about saying it ever since we finished recording (and I don’t think that feeling will ever go away – slurs in fictional worlds only make me think of their real-world counterparts and fill me with unbearable shame).

I’d love to hear from you and talk to you – so any feedback, comments or critiques are very welcome! Get in touch with me on social media, leave a comment on my blog, or email me at edps@leeds.ac.uk. If you’d like to follow the podcast or the PhD project, visit my website marginallyfannish.org where you’ll find both the podcast episodes and the blog. You can also receive updates on Facebook or Instagram at Marginally Fannish or on Twitter where I’m @MarginalFannish. If you enjoyed the podcast, please share it with anyone you think will enjoy it too.

Thanks for listening! Tune in again next time for all things fannish and intersectional!

[Outro music]

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