A PhD project exploring intersectionality through fan podcasts

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Tag: Cultural Representations

Episode 18 We’ve Been Featured! Finally!: Questioning Cultural Norms in Mainstream Fantasy Books

Episode Resources:

1) Fan podcast – Harry Potter and the Sacred Text: Special Edition Owl Post and Marya Bangee (listen from 19 minutes 40 seconds till the end of the episode)

2) Tumblr post – Imagine A Muslim Witch

3) Fan podcast – Breaking The Glass Slipper: Cultural Traditions of Magic

4) Article – Through Sci-fi And Fantasy, Muslim Women Authors Are Building New Worlds

 

Episode Transcript

This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity. If you would prefer the original, unedited version, please let me know!

Illustration of a brown girl with blue glasses dressed in Ravenclaw house robes. She's holding an open book and looking up at a black cat on her shoulder

[Intro music]

Welcome to Marginally Fannish, a show where we aim an intersectional lens at some of our favourite media and their fandoms.

[Intro music]

My name is Parinita Shetty and you’re listening to the eighteenth episode of Marginally Fannish. In this episode, I talk to Aisha about diverse cultures in some of our favourite fantasy media. As fangirls from the UAE and India, we also explore a non-Western perspective of the Potterverse.

A lot of popular fantasy has emerged from the UK and taken over our imaginations. However, the dominance of English in these globally popular books can act as a barrier for non-native speakers of the language. This language barrier also exists in fandom where limited English-language abilities restrict your access to online fan spaces. The politics of language and traditions in mainstream SFF and fandom – specifically what’s the norm and what’s othered – has broad cultural implications. Readers from non-Eurocentric cultures often have to work extra hard to understand unfamiliar contexts and references. Moreover, a diet of primarily Western books with meagre diversity leaves many fans unable to imagine ourselves in our favourite worlds.

Increasingly, however, fans from different countries and cultures are beginning to question ideas of which languages and cultures are automatically deemed superior. Fans navigate linguistic and technological limitations to carve out local-language fan spaces which bring together their multiple identities. Discussions about cultural imperialism and cultural assimilation in fictional worlds like Harry Potter encourage fans to draw parallels between the tokenistic ways in which Western media depicts diverse groups. Conversations about which cultural norms are respected and what we’d like to see more of allow fans to challenge textual limitations and decolonise our minds. A growing number of writers are creating narratives which move beyond the Eurocentric norm in mainstream SFF. Normalising cultural diversity can disrupt previously taken-for-granted assumptions and enable fans to imagine ourselves in fantastical worlds.

Find our conversation about all this and more in today’s episode.

Happy listening!

[Intro music]

Parinita: Today I’m so thrilled to welcome fellow bookworm and Harry Potter fangirl Aisha to the podcast. Aisha is a fan from Dubai who has always identified herself as a reader. She loves reading everything from classics to fantasy to manga and comic books. She’s a fan of a lot of media but she mostly identifies with the Harry Potter fandom. She also loves Japanese anime and manga. As someone who’s grown up in India, I’m so excited to be able to talk to someone who comes from such a different background from me but we still have so many things in common. I’m also a huge reader, I used to write fanfiction, I’m a huge Harry Potter fan and I’m into fandom. So in this episode, we’re going to be focusing on different cultural identities in fantasy worlds. But before we get to that, Aisha, could you tell us about some of your encounters as a fan in Dubai?

Aisha: Yes, absolutely. I’m very happy to be in this interview as well and to find someone who has the same passion for fandoms and who has the same passion for reading that is not exactly from let’s say the Western world or from the United States or from the UK and so on.

Parinita: Absolutely!

Aisha: So I’m very happy to meet you. Let me talk to you a little bit about my encounter with Harry Potter in specific. So my brother used to go to a private school where the medium of instruction was English. His English teacher actually recommended the kids to read Harry Potter when it just came out. I think it was back in 1998. He got the book but he didn’t get into it really. I was older than him and at the time I was probably in seventh grade. I tried to read the book but I couldn’t. It was a bit difficult for me as a non-native speaker of English, so I stopped reading. I remember the first chapter having to do with owls and so on. But I really couldn’t get what was the whole point. And with English sometimes if something is too difficult to read or too difficult to understand, it really demotivates you from reading.

Parinita: Yeah and the first chapter of Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone is particularly difficult

Aisha: Yes.

Parinita: I did this reading programme in a school in Mumbai and a lot of the kids there were first-generation English speakers so a lot of them weren’t very comfortable with the language. And they knew I was a huge Harry Potter fangirl because I have a 9 ¾ tattoo on my wrist as well.

Aisha: [laughs]

Parinita: So they’d want to know what that meant. And I had introduced them to Harry Potter. And I’d tell them to stick with the book past the first chapter because the first chapter, especially if you know nothing about the world, if you know nothing about the UK or British culture, it’s really difficult to get through.

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: Or British references and things, it’s really difficult.

Aisha: No absolutely. I agree. I wish I had someone who would tell me that.

Parinita: [laughs]

Aisha: I would have been reading it earlier. It was that and it was also me not really knowing that it’s okay not to understand every word and every vocabulary. I remember trying to look up words in the dictionary while I was reading.

Parinita: Oh!

Aisha: For me it was just that difficult. It wasn’t within my English language abilities.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aisha: And at the time, I really didn’t know or I didn’t really realise that sometimes it’s okay not to understand each and every word. You have to understand the context not necessarily each vocabulary or each term that you see.

Parinita: Just based on that, sorry I’ll let you get back to your Harry Potter origin story, but do you find that – this is something that I find a lot because I’m the same as you even though English is my first language. I’ve been reading since I was five or six years old, and I read a lot of British children’s books as well. So I grew up reading Enid Blyton who’s this really popular English author and she’s also really popular in India. So by the time I’d encountered Harry Potter when I was about ten, I had an idea of the culture even though it was all foreign to me. The words and the food – everything. They call sweaters jumpers.

Aisha: Yeah. [laughs]

Parinita: Which took me many years to realise what that means. But I would just read it and when I encountered those words in many different books, I could sort of build a contextual understanding of it. So I’d have a vague idea of what it means but I wouldn’t know how to pronounce unfamiliar words. Even if I knew what the word meant through the books that I read but because I encountered those words through books and not through someone telling me, there’s still so many English words that I mispronounce.

Aisha: No I get you. I think with Harry Potter particularly there are also some made-up words.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Aisha: Or words that are influenced by Latin or by other languages which is particularly difficult if there’s no equivalence to it in the dictionary.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aisha: So pronouncing it, reading it – yeah I get why I didn’t get into reading it at the very beginning when it first stared. It wasn’t within my ability honestly to read it. I feel even if I had continued beyond the first chapter, I wouldn’t have enjoyed it or understood it.

Parinita: Yeah. So how then did you return to Harry Potter and fall in love with it?

Aisha: So how did I return … Basically, we ignored the book. [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs]

Aisha: It was sitting on our shelf [laughs] for a couple of more years until the first movie came out back in 2001.

Parinita:  Aaah! Yeah.

Aisha: And my dad who remembered that he got us the book that we didn’t read –

Parinita: [laughs]

Aisha: He was like okay let me take you to the movie. So we watched the first movie and I absolutely loved it. And I was like, “You know what? Now I understand the context, let me go and check out the book. I might actually enjoy it.” And I found it much easier to understand. I mean to be honest, I was also older. Probably my English had also improved by that time.

Parinita: Right.

Aisha: So I gave it a shot. It was really easy reading; it was a breeze to be honest. Especially after seeing the movie and knowing all those terms – what did they mean and so on.  And then within that one year, I read up to where the books were published, which I believe were the fourth book?

Parinita: Yeah.

Aisha: I read until the fourth book in 2001. And I’ve been a fan ever since.

Parinita: That’s amazing! So I’m wondering whether you had the experience then of waiting really excitedly for the fifth book.

Aisha: Yes!

Parinita: Is that something you experienced as well?

Aisha: See I was a little bit lucky because I think when I read the fourth book, it was 2001. And I think the fifth book came out in 2002. Am I right? I remember not waiting too long for the fifth book.

Parinita: Yeah. I don’t remember the exact year but I yeah I’d also caught up with it because I started reading when I was ten, and then I think for a few more years like the second and third and fourth book. And the fifth book wasn’t yet out. And I have this very firm memory of growing up with Harry.

Aisha: Hmm.

Parinita: He was the same age as I was when I started reading the books so he turned eleven and when I was eleven and then twelve and thirteen. So I think it might have been like mid-2000s or early 2000s for sure because I was so excited to know what was going to happen in The Order of the Phoenix.

Aisha: Yeah. Because I remember not waiting that long. I only waited a year probably.

Parinita: So was it really popular in Dubai, the books?

Aisha: By that time it was popular. It was very easy to find the books in English and so on. But I wouldn’t necessarily say that it was read by Arabs in Dubai.

Parinita: Hmm.

Aisha: Most of the people who read it were also Native speakers of English.

Parinita: You mean the international immigrants in Dubai were reading it?

Aisha: Yeah. The international residents mostly. But it was probably also different because I was in a public school where English was taught as a foreign language rather than as a medium

Parinita: Aaah!

Aisha: of ???

Parinita: Yeah.

Aisha: From my experience I didn’t have anyone at school who used to read the book. Except for one friend who I pushed her to read it. [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs] Yeah.

Aisha: Other than that I don’t remember any other classmates

Parinita: Oh I have this same experience of pushing people in my school to read the books because I wanted someone to talk to about these books and just nobody seemed to love the books as much as I did. I was obsessed with these books and I wanted to play with people like games that were inspired from the books or talk about theories and things. Because now there’s so much that we take for granted in Harry Potter and especially kids who are starting to read it now, they have all seven books.

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: There’s no mystery that they have to wait for to find out what happens. I remember all the theories that I had and I wanted someone to share them with. But everyone seemed to just read the books and then get on with their life.

Aisha: Yeah. [laughs]

Parinita: Whereas for me, I wanted to read the books and make that a part of my life.

Aisha: Exactly! No, exactly, I get you. Yes.

Parinita: Which is why online fandom was such a revelation to me. So we had these things called cyber cafes in Mumbai.

Aisha: Yeah, I remember.

Parinita: I didn’t have a computer at home when I was thirteen. I got my first computer when I was sixteen. Me and my friend, we used to go to this cyber café for half an hour, an hour. And I just randomly stumbled onto this chat room which was dedicated to Harry Potter. And I was like oh my god there are other people who love Harry Potter as much as me! But they were all foreigners. They were all Western – at least from my understanding. Because they also all seemed American, not even British.

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: Yeah so that was my first encounter with online fandom.

Aisha: I found myself stumbling across online fandoms as well. But I also had people within my own network who also read the books but mostly family. I have a cousin actually who started reading it before me. And I had a family friend, a daughter of a family friend who also used to read the book. And she read it before the movie was out. And they actually got me into reading it as well. So I wouldn’t say I necessarily didn’t have any face to face networking fandoms.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aisha: I did have that but if we’re talking about school in specific or friends my age and so on, no I really didn’t have. Except for that friend whom I urged to read.

Parinita: [laughs] Yeah.

Aisha: So I did stumble upon Harry Potter forums. One of them is still going on by the way.

Parinita: Oh really?

Aisha: Yeah I still receive emails from them.

Parinita: Oh amazing.

Aisha: Like you said, it was mostly an international forum and I felt like the people who were there, the way in which they discussed things were not necessarily things that I understood. Maybe because again I wasn’t very confident with the level of English that I had.

Parinita: And it’s not just the English, right? It’s the cultural references and all these things that make up a language. It’s not just the vocabulary. You might be great at the vocabulary but not able to hold a conversation that includes all the cultural aspects as well.

Aisha: Yeah, no I get it. For example sometimes people would do jokes or puns and I wouldn’t necessarily understand where those are coming from. I mean it took me forever to understand what Potterhead means. [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs] Yeah I’m completely with you. So I know we’re going to be talking about fandom more a little bit later. But just before we get to that, I wanted to talk about how while popular Western fantasy has taken over the world and our imaginations – not just you and me, but a lot of global imaginations.

Aisha: Um hmm.

Parinita: In our day-to-day lives, we tend to encounter our own cultural traditions of fantasy and storytelling as well and mix that with magic from our favourite fictional worlds. So I was really curious, what are some of the stories and ideas of magic that you grew up with in Dubai?

Aisha: Mostly magic had to do with stories of One Thousand and One Nights. Like Arabian Nights where there’s magic and you have the magic lamp or the magic carpet and you have stories of genies and so on. But I would say those are not also not necessarily contextual, those are more like broad Arab stories. I mean they’re not necessarily local inspired. If I’m talking about my Emirati or Dubai local inspired stories, we have a lot of stories that have to do with ghosts and spirits, some stories about witches or wizards and so on. But usually it’s a bit dark. It has to do with dark magic and black magic. Usually those fables or those folklore stories were told to children so that they would either listen to their moms and dads or they would not trust strangers and so on.

Parinita: Yeah!

Aisha: They’re as dark as the Grim Reaper kind of stuff.

Parinita: So similar again to India. Because I grew up with the Arabian Nights as well so magic carpets and all didn’t seem exotic [laughs] like this foreign thing. I was just re-reading Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire recently. There’s this person called Ali Bashir who wants to import flying carpets to the UK because he thinks there’s a market for a family vehicle. But in the UK, it’s illegal because obviously British magicians prefer uncomfortable Portkeys and Floo Networks and things. A magic carpet would be so comfortable! It would be like taking an aeroplane from one place to another. But yeah we had the same where ghosts and witches and things were not these friendly Harry Potter ghosts and witches.

Aisha: Yeah!

A scene featuring a Portkey from the Fantastic Beasts films

A scene of Harry using Floo powder to travel in the Chamber of Secrets movie

Parinita: They were used to scare children. Not only adults scared children but we scared each other as well.

Aisha: [laughs]

Parinita: These witches with feet backwards who would –

Aisha: Yeah! We had similar things. One of the most famous stories is … I don’t know if it’s a ghost story or even a spirit that is half-woman and half-donkey.

Parinita: Oh! Interesting.

Aisha: Who kidnaps kids during afternoon – I don’t know in India, do you have siesta or napping? Afternoon napping?

Parinita: In some parts of the country, yeah.

Aisha: Because it’s part of our culture as well. And so to make sure that children don’t run out of the house during those times –

Parinita: [laughs]

Aisha: They would tell children those stories. So usually you’d think an evil spirit would come at night, right?

Parinita: Yeah!

Aisha: But no, this one comes at around 12 noon.

Parinita: [laughs] Oh my god.

Aisha: So those were the stories, yeah.

Parinita: I think Asian parents, whichever country you’re from, are the same. [laughs] Because India has this as well … I guess Western parents might be or maybe it’s also a generational thing where now they don’t want to damage the child’s psychological wellbeing.

Aisha: [laughs]

Parinita: Whereas with us, it was like, “No, no. A ghost will kidnap you or eat you. Or this vampire in a tree will take you away and feast on your body.”

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: It was all a part of childhood. And even now, my boyfriend is Scottish and he’s a very rational sort of person. Doesn’t believe in ghosts and things. And I’m like look, rationally I can say that ghosts don’t exist but I am scared of ghosts.

Aisha: [laughs]

Parinita: Because what if they don’t know they’re supposed to not exist you know? And what if they come up to me … it’s very difficult to unlearn these things that you grow up with.

Aisha: Yeah! No, I get you. If we’re talking about fantasy, those are the sort of stories that we grew up with. Mostly folktales.

Parinita: Yeah. We had folktales as well with a lot of talking animals and things.

Aisha: Hmm!

Parinita: That was a huge part of our folktales and these oral storytelling traditions that have been around, at least in India, since two thousand years or so. And they’re being passed down and now they’ve become stories for children which I don’t think they originally were. But now folktales in India as well as fairy tales in the West, they’re very much seen to be a children’s storytelling thing.

Aisha: Yeah. I mean when you look at Brothers what do you call it – is it Brothers Grimm?

Parinita: Um hmm.

Aisha: If you look at the original stories, you won’t necessarily think that the audience are kids, right? Or children. It’s so dark.

Parinita: Yeah. And I think they had a similar purpose as well like what you were saying about kids, but in the fairy tales with the Brothers Grimm and stuff I think it was for everybody. Warnings to be careful of the world around you basically but using stories to impart that message. I don’t know if it was similar in Dubai, but in India, these stories I wouldn’t really think of as fantasy. I mean it’s not like a history of fantasy traditions as much as just a part of our cultural tradition.

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: There’s no distinction between one or the other. It’s just something that we grow up with. At some points I don’t even know where I got these ideas from, these stories from. It’s just something that in day-to-day life adults or friends, whoever, would tell me these things.

Aisha: Yeah, I get you absolutely. And that’s why sometimes, like you said, are they really fantasy or are they just fairy tales or folktales? I don’t really know, yeah.

Parinita: Yeah, it’s difficult to bifurcate it like that. Just getting back a little to what we spoke about earlier about language and how language is political. So obviously which language dominates and which traditions are considered “normal” in mainstream science fiction and fantasy as well as in fandom, they obviously have a lot of cultural implications, right? Because currently English and Western culture have a huge influence globally. But Muslim history and Indian history has also contributed to global social and political events and scientific and technological advancements and art and culture as well. Though this is largely overlooked on the world stage. When we talk about these things, we don’t really talk so much about Indian or Muslim contributions. So in terms of the dominance of language specifically what have you observed in fandom and media?

Aisha: Oh again like you said, in order to access those platforms, the language that is spoken is English. If you have good English, then you have access to those outlets. And if your English is limited, then there’s a limitation for you to get into those fandoms, to get access into those things, to fandoms basically. I feel you have to be a speaker of English specifically.

Parinita: And also you have this then sense of – and this is something I’m still unlearning – this sense of English being equated with being a superior language just because of the kind of influence that it has. So when I was growing up, we would get a lot of American TV shows as well as some anime shows from Japan. The American shows used to be English so Cartoon Network and Nickelodeon. And the Japanese anime used to be dubbed in English as well when I was younger. But then when I grew up a little, when I was an older kid, it used to start being dubbed into Hindi – which is one of the national languages, but because India is such a huge country with so many different languages, there’s politics in that as well where Hindi plays the role in India that English plays all over the world. So Hindi is marginalising these other languages. But anyway, these cartoons used to be dubbed into Hindi and I used to hate it. I used to prefer it in English. At that time obviously I couldn’t articulate why but I think as a kid I must have imbibed these ideas of English just being a better language and Hindi not being as cool or as fashionable I guess. I don’t know. And even afterwards, even today, English is the language of social mobility as well. If you go to an English-medium school, that’s seen to be more respectable in India than if you go to a local-language school. And you won’t have as many opportunities if you don’t know English.

Aisha: Yeah, absolutely. I think this is what English is. And that’s why a lot of people all over the world are so keen on learning the language because of those different opportunities that comes with English. I was on Twitter the other day and I came across a tweet by someone saying that even though, for example, they are from a different country but because they use English so much and now they think in English. And it’s this whole idea of with yourself, do you think in English or do you think in your own native language? And there was this whole big debate with a lot of people saying yeah because we use it so much in reading and in writing, we now think in English. And there was also some debate about whether people dream in English [laughs] or in their first language. So yeah English has taken up such a big space, if we’re talking about media.

Parinita: So the Harry Potter movies in Dubai, would they be translated into Arabic or did they have the English versions playing in theatres?

Aisha: No our theatres are subtitled. We have subtitles, not dubbed.

Parinita: Okay. So they’d have Arabic subtitles in them?

Aisha: Yes.

Parinita: Okay. We had both. We used to have English playing as well as Hindi. And I remember me and my friends, we used to laugh so much. I think the movies made Harry Potter more accessible to more kids than the books did. Like you were saying, you got into it again through the movies.

Aisha: Yes.

Parinita: Even in India, the movies were so popular that a lot of kids who didn’t read the books even afterwards, they were still a fan of the Harry Potter movies.

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: And me and my friends, we used to make fun of the Hindi translations of the Houses and the titles and things. And now I feel so bad about it. It’s just something that you don’t really know where you’ve learned these things from. Where you’ve learned to make fun of languages that are not English. I still find the translations a bit hilarious. But that’s just because it’s not a language that I’m used to. So it sounds really dramatic. Like Gryffindor is Garuddwar and things like that which would be really difficult to translate into a non-Hindi language.

The Hindi cover of the book Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows: Harry Potter Aur Maut Ke Taufe

Aisha: Yeah. No, ours are subtitled. They’re not dubbed over. They played in the original language in theatres.

Parinita: Yeah. I wonder if in India there were other translations as well. Because in Mumbai, which is where I’m from, Marathi is the predominant language and Hindi is more like a Northern language but I grew up speaking Hindi, Marathi and English as well. But in the south, Hindi it’s a political thing again where they reject Hindi because they think it’s this language imperialism of sorts. So they cling on to their local language identity. So I wonder if Harry Potter would have been dubbed into these other languages as well. [They were]

Aisha: Aah.

Parinita: I should look this up, it would be interesting. You have some experience using local languages to expand the reach of your favourite stories and fandoms, right?

Aisha: Yeah. I don’t know when exactly I came across an Arabic forum of Harry Potter and that was also very early on; I believe it was 2002 or 2003 when I was still in school, I stumbled upon a forum. I believe one of my friends told me about it. And it was a specific forum dedicated to Harry Potter but it was in Arabic. And altogether I think we were like five-six members only. [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs]

Aisha: So in that big forum … but it was so nice you know. It was finally meeting up people from within the region who were also fans of the book. I don’t remember specifically if we used to communicate in Arabic or in English on that website. It was probably a mix of two. I think it was mostly English.

Parinita: I don’t know if you have this in Dubai, but we have a version of English called Hinglish which is a mix of Hindi and English.

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: So it’s a dual thing; we use Hindi words and we use English words.

Aisha: Exactly. This is what I wanted to tell you as well. So we didn’t have a sort of Hinglish like for example an Aralish or something like that.

Parinita: [laughs]

Aisha: It was more like us writing in Arabic but using English letters. Does that make sense?

Parinita: Oh right. Yes.

Aisha: And for specific letters that were not translated to English, because we have a lot of sounds in Arabic like [makes an Arabic sound]. They don’t have the equivalency of those in English.

Parinita: Right.

Aisha: We would actually use numbers. But this was agreed upon like everyone throughout the Arab world would use the same sort of numbers to convey sounds.

Parinita: Oh!

Aisha: Yeah so we would use that a lot during those times. Especially since back at that time I think not a lot of keyboards had Arabic. Not a lot of mobile phones actually. It was back when we had Nokia and so on. Not a lot of mobile phones had Arabic characters so I think this is where it originated from but I could be mistaken. But this is the language that we used to write in for chatting, for texting. So it was basically Arabic but using English letters.

Parinita: Oh that’s amazing.

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: So the fanfiction that you wrote, was that in a similar language?

Aisha: Oh no the fanfiction that I wrote that was in standard Arabic.

Parinita: Aaah.

Aisha: We have different variations of Arabic. The standard, that’s the language that is used in writing, reading, in newspapers and books. It’s not really spoken much. You wouldn’t see people speaking standard Arabic in their daily lives, their lived experiences. But it’s the language that you see on interviews, for example. In teaching, teachers would use it with students. But it’s not a very widely spoken language and community. It’s the language of writing. This is what we use when we write. And there was another forum; unfortunately that forum had to be closed down. Because the guy who was managing it, who was the moderator and was also the one who was paying for it. And he’s like we don’t have enough members and we don’t have enough activities and I can’t really pay that much for it. So it had to be shut down.

Parinita: Oh that’s such a pity!

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: And that’s so amazing that you had that space and you found that space. I can just imagine as a teenager, if I’d found a space online – a Harry Potter fan website or forum or whatever that had Indian fans or even South Asian fans.

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: Because we share a lot of the same cultural references and things like movies and songs and food and clothes and things. it would have been so amazing that I wouldn’t have to explain myself; everyone would just understand. We’d be on the same page.

Aisha: Yeah, no, I get you, absolutely. And it was amazing as well that not only were they people online, but I knew most of the people on that forum. Two of them were already my friends and I got to meet one other who later on I discovered she went to the same university that I did.

Parinita: Oh amazing.

Aisha: Yeah. So it was a very close-knit community. We were such a like-minded group. It was so easy to chat about things without, like you said, without having to explain things.

Parinita: Yeah because I found myself a part of two different worlds almost. In my regular everyday day-to-day life, my Harry Potter fandom was a weird thing that people didn’t really understand. They were like, oh okay Harry Potter is nice and all but okay. So there I’d have to speak a language differently than I would online. I mean not language in terms of it would be English in both spaces but just in terms of the references that I was making and things, I could just use Harry Potter spells and things.

Aisha: [laughs]

Parinita: I couldn’t just make jokes out of that which I could online but in online spaces, I couldn’t use my Indian jokes and references and contexts and things. So that’s amazing that you found that space where you could do a mix of both.

Aisha: It was amazing but unfortunately it was closed down. And then I think during my first year of university, I found another forum in Arabic. I was so excited that I found another forum and I was very active. I got to be a moderator of something … I don’t know of a House maybe.

Parinita: Oooh!

Aisha: Yeah. I had an administrative role. [laughs]

Parinita: Amazing!

Aisha: I was that active. It was during that time when I was active on that forum that there was a short story writing competition. They just said that it had to be in Arabic, it had to be blah blah blah, this length and so on and so forth and try to submit it within these timings and so on. So I read the guidelines well and I thought okay this is my opportunity. So I wrote a fanfiction about Harry Potter. It had to do with his parents, Lupin, Sirius Black

Parinita: Ah Sirius!

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: My first email id just to put my embarrassing past in context, even though I’m still proud of it, was siriusfan138@mugglenet.com. I still have [laughs] a very clear memory of this. And I wanted to keep giving people my email id. But nobody emailed at that time, I was thirteen so like 2003 when none of my friends emailed. Ah Sirius! Yeah.

Aisha: So it was about them. It was when they discovered Lupin was a werewolf.

Parinita: Oh yeah!

Aisha: ???

Parinita: So Marauders era fanfic.

Aisha: [laughs] Yeah.

Parinita: Oh amazing.

Aisha: What was it called? Animagus? Something like that?

Parinita: Yeah. Animagus. Ooh.

Aisha: So Lily was helping them to find a solution or a potion or whatever it was. I was so excited. I wrote it in Arabic and usually I don’t write things in Arabic. Mostly I write in English. And I remember I showed it to one of my other cousins who’s also a fan and she was blown away. She was like oh my goodness this is amazing, it feels like it comes from J. K. Rowling and blah blah blah.

Parinita: Oh! Amazing. Do you still have the story?

Aisha: I have the story, I think somewhere, yeah.

Parinita: Oh you’re so lucky. I remember I wrote a thing which was a much sillier thing than what you’ve written. It was sort of a sitcom version of Voldemort and the Death Eaters.

Aisha: Aah!

Parinita: Where everybody was wildly out of character. [laughs] And there were lots of jokes in there, there was lots of silliness and goofiness. But I feel like that helped me practise my writing as well. Just getting to the core of storytelling because those are the kind of stories I write now. I write books for children in India. And they’re full of silliness and madness and just all around people behaving in really weird ways. So I feel like my Voldemort and the Death Eater fanfic really helped me. But I don’t have a copy of it. I wish I did.

Aisha: Yeah. I think I have it saved somewhere.

Parinita: Amazing!

Aisha: So then I submitted it to the website, to the forum. And I was so excited! I was like you know what, I’m sure I’m going to win this competition. I was so sure that I was going to win it. And then when I read the other entries, I noticed that they weren’t necessarily writing fanfiction. It wasn’t a fanfiction competition.

Parinita: Ohhh!

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: [laughs]

Aisha: It was a general short story competition. And I misinterpreted that. I thought because this is a Harry Potter forum, the stories have to be related to Harry Potter. But it wasn’t. And I didn’t win. [laughs]

Parinita: Oh! [laughs] Oh no! I’m glad that even though you misinterpreted the prompt, you managed to write a story that you and your cousin both loved and had fun with. I think a lot of fanfiction, people just write for themselves as well. So even though you wrote it for a competition, I’m glad you had fun writing it.

Aisha: Yeah. Oh actually that’s very true. A lot of people do write for themselves. I’ve written a couple of other fanfiction for anime. And I’ve never really published it. I have one published but not the others.

Parinita: What anime world did you write it in?

Aisha: One was for Slam Dunk and a couple were for Fruit Basket. But one of them was already shared. Back in the days, I remember we didn’t have fanfiction.net. There were Yahoo groups – I don’t know if you remember.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aisha: I subscribed to Yahoo groups. And I remember there was a group about those anime – there was one on Fruit Basket and I published my story there. And I think it was only one or two people who read it as well.

Parinita: [laughs]

Aisha: So

Parinita: Amazing.

Aisha: ???

Parinita: It’s making me so nostalgic for … it makes me feel so old now – those days of yore.

Aisha: [laughs]

Parinita: So now maybe we can move on to talking about Harry Potter specifically. We’ve briefly spoken about how Western fantasy is dominant and Western characters and cultures and contexts are dominant. But still we both get really excited when we find characters and elements which are familiar to us or which reflect us in our favourite worlds. And specifically talking about Harry Potter, you’d mentioned something similar as well, right?

Aisha: Yes. Exactly. The fact that there was one Arab character in the book and that was in the fourth book. There was an Egyptian referee by the name of Mostafa if I’m not mistaken.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Aisha: And it was so exciting that oh my goodness finally there is an Arab character in this whole wizarding world. It was so exciting for us that when me and my cousins got to this point, we all texted each other, “Hahaha! So funny look at them – look at the character.” [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs]

Aisha: We’ve been featured! Finally! [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs] I know we were the same – well I don’t know if we – I was the same just internally I was excited when I saw Parvati and Padma Patil.

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: Parvati has been a part of it right from the beginning. So for me it was like oh my god this is a name that I recognise. She could be my neighbour. But then of course, there was nothing else about her, nothing about her culture or her Indianness or if she was British-Indian or whatever. So I had to just be happy with [laughs] the name. And then she had a twin, Padma, and I was like oh yay! Another of us there.

Aisha: I mean yeah if you compare it to what diversity means today, [laughs] it’s not really diverse.

Parinita: [laughs]

Aisha: But we were so happy. I remember myself and my cousins, we were so happy that there was some sort of link that we could be part of this world.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aisha: We could be part of this fantasy as well.

Parinita: Yeah absolutely. And for me because I started reading the first book when I was ten, when I was going to turn eleven, I was like, oh I really hope I get my Hogwarts letter today. So I was one of those kids.

Aisha: I’m still waiting for mine! [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs] Yeah. So yeah, you’re so right. Just seeing someone that you recognise in that world allows you access to imagine yourself in that world as well. Which is what I think like a lot of more creative fans than me have done where they took Parvati and made her a central part of the story, like written stories about her. I wouldn’t even have thought of doing that at that time.

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: Because my mind was so very much caught up in that oh no I can’t. Even though she is there, but still Western society largely means white people and British people. So I couldn’t even imagine writing a story that would feature her or that would even feature an Indian person. I remember when I used to write stories for fun when I was younger, not fanfic, just general stories, they all used to be set in the US or the UK.

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: Because those are the kind of books that I was reading. So even though I lived in India, in Mumbai, and travelled in India and around Mumbai, all my characters were either blonde or had blue eyes or had names like John and Emily and things.

Aisha: No, no I get you. One hundred percent. I mean I used to write stories as well and it was all set in the United States.

Parinita: Yeah. [laughs]

Aisha: I mean I wouldn’t even think someone like me or someone with a different name or with a different feature could be featured in those books. I guess maybe because I read so many English books. Or so many other stories where diverse characters were not at all included. I thought maybe subconsciously that nobody else belongs in a book except for

Parinita: Yeah!

Aisha: American or Western or whatever. Yeah.

Parinita: It’s so strange thinking about that now because now that I live in the UK, I’m currently living here for my PhD, and I see so many British people who are not white. People who were born in the UK who are not white, who are either black or brown or East Asian. And I just wonder how they must have felt when this idea of Britishness excluded them. They couldn’t even recognise themselves in the stories. Because at least for me I had Bollywood and things. There were Hindi movies that I used to watch a lot while growing up, which had people who looked like me and had the same places and things. Maybe not the stories that I read but I did have media that reflected me. So it must be so difficult to live in a Western country but not see yourself reflected in any media. That must be so much more difficult as well.

Aisha: Yeah, no I get you. Yeah. Absolutely.

Parinita: Which is why I’m happy there’s more of a push now for diverse literature and own voices. People writing about their own experiences and stuff. I think a lot of people must have gotten their practice in fandom.

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: Because fandom is full of it, right? It’s full of own voices and diversity.

Aisha: Yes. And cross-writing as well. Like writing across different genres.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aisha: Including characters from here and there. So yeah absolutely.

Parinita: Yeah what is that genre called?

Aisha: ???

Parinita: Yeah basically

Aisha: Something like crossing or crossover?

Parinita: Yeah. And AU [Alternate Universe] and things where one character is in a different world just basically melding all your things together. Yeah. So speaking of Harry Potter and cultures in Harry Potter, we find plenty of diverse cultures there as well. So both real-world and what we mentioned, because there’s … well a handful, not that many.

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: But there are more magical cultures there which seem to be more marginalised in the grand scheme of things. And which is something that I hadn’t picked up on while reading it when I was a kid. Or even earlier as an adult, I used to reread the series quite regularly. And I never used to think about how much the emphasis seems to be on witches and wizards and not on anybody else. Like I said, I was rereading The Goblet of Fire and I just realised – and this is something that they spoke about in the Harry Potter and the Sacred Text episode as well – where Muggles and Muggle-borns are seen to be such a – seem to be belonging to such an inferior kind of culture.

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: So Hermione when she comes into the wizarding world – and Hermione – she’s clever and she’s amazing, she’s brilliant. She’s all these things. But even she has to leave her Muggle culture behind and assimilate into the magical world. And all these witches and wizards have these strange stereotypes about Muggles. And she has to just grin and bear it like, “Haha yeah I guess. Muggles are funny.” Even though her parents are non-magical. And her whole extended family or whatever, her friends that she had as a kid. But she seems to have completely put that behind and she doesn’t make any references really. Or nothing that anybody else takes seriously.

Aisha: Yeah. I didn’t necessarily think of Hermione’s point of view. But I thought of Harry like why wasn’t he into his Muggle culture? Because he lived with his aunt and uncle, right? And I thought maybe because he just psychologically wants to distance himself from his relatives because of all the abuse. But now that you’re talking about Hermione, I’m like yes, she lived in a loving home, right?

Parinita: Exactly.

Aisha: Her parents were very … yeah so why did she put behind completely that world?

Parinita: And the thing is that all these witches and wizards, they live very closely in the Muggle world. They’re not a dominant culture in the Muggle world. Muggles outnumber magical people. But even then, I don’t think there’s any sort of effort to try and understand Muggles in a way that actually looks at their technology and their culture and their art and literature or whatever. It’s just all very wizard-centric. Imagine how great it would be … like I know they explain away things like technology doesn’t work in Hogwarts because there’s too much magic in the air, so technology just fails. But has anybody tried to make this better? Or have they just been like, oh who needs Muggle technology anyway? We can get along without … even though they seem to be living in the 17th century. [laughs]

Aisha: [laughs] Yeah.

Screenshot from Tumblr. contradictingmultitudes: I want to read a fic where some tech savvy muggleborn manages to patch wifi into Hogwarts cause lets be honest the anti-muggle-technology chams were done by some ministry wanker 50 yrs ago who knew jackshit about electronics beyond radios much less microprocessors so the Hufflepuffs are all binge watching Netflix before exams and it takes months for the profs to figure anything out.

Parinita: The wizards and witches.

Aisha: And all those quills, yeah exactly.

Parinita: Yeah. [laughs]

Aisha: You brought up a really interesting thing. I haven’t really thought of it this way.

Parinita: Yeah, it’s not something I thought of myself. It’s just something I thought of because I’ve been hearing about it a lot in fan podcasts and things about how Muggles seem to be looked down upon. Even Arthur Weasley who really likes Muggles, even he is only looking at them almost like they’re museum exhibits.

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: Like oooh so fancy! You use these telephones? Oooh what are telephones? He’s not actually trying to get to know Hermione’s culture. It’s just like it looks all foreign and exotic so he’s trying to figure it out. Which is very British. Speaking as someone who was colonised by them.

Aisha: Which is also interesting because when you look at other cultures and mainly dominant Western media, this is also what [laughs] sometimes

Parinita: Yup!

Aisha: Unfortunately sometimes how international people or people from different cultures are featured. Very, very superficially.

Parinita: Absolutely.

Aisha: Yeah. And probably if we really look at Harry Potter I mean I know that I’m a fan, a very loyal fan but again this is how they’ve included those cultures like with Padma and with Mustafa and all of those characters. They seem to have been very assimilated into the wizarding culture and very little of who they are, what is their background is really brought up in the story.

Parinita: Yeah and very British wizarding culture as well like we saw in one of those Tumblr posts, Imagine a Muslim Witch which has a headcanon of a Muslim Muggle-born witch in Hogwarts. And I love that not just because it was imagining a Muslim witch, but because of all the potential possibilities that opened up in my brain.

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: The post mentioned that she would use Arabic spells and Parvati would use Punjabi spells, Anthony Goldstein would use Hebrew spells – all these different languages. And they just would have a separate club where all this religious diversity as well as cultural diversity would come into play and they would just borrow from each other’s different cultures and make something better out of it. Which is what you want, right?

Aisha: And that’s why I loved it. I thought it was brilliant. Not only because of the culture and the cultural insertion. A lot of fanfiction would do that. They would include characters from different cultures into the story. But this one seemed believable. It actually added to the story. It was relevant. It was very, very connected to the plot of fantasy and spells and all of these things.

Parinita: Absolutely. And something what you said about Latin words being used, that’s also in the spells and things as well as you know the place names and the people names in the British magical world. But I know now and we know now that Britain is much more diverse than that.

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: It’s not all white, Eurocentric and Western. We have lots of immigrants now here and things. So what sort of impact would that have on different things? Food and language and festivals and things. I know we’re going to be talking about that a little bit more but just that Imagine a Muslim Witch headcanon – it just blew my mind open to all the different possibilities.

Aisha: No, exactly.

Parinita: And another thing that I thought of in Goblet of Fire was that it’s not just like different real-world cultures, but within the magical world as well there are so many different cultures. So it’s not just witches and wizards. It’s House-elves and Goblins and Giants and Werewolves and Centaurs. These kind of things are kind of mentioned in Order of the Phoenix, there’s this centaur problem that happens.

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: And goblins in the last book. But they all seem to be so living so separately from each other. And even in The Goblet of Fire, what struck me during the second task, when Harry goes to the bottom of the lake and he doesn’t know that Merpeople live there. And he discovers this even though the lake is on Hogwarts grounds so you would think that this sort of information would have been shared. But he doesn’t know whether they eat humans or whether they’re murderous. He knows nothing about them. Even though they share the same environment. And they seem to be lovely people. [laughs]

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: They come up with him and they’re really happy that he tried to save the other champions’ person. Why isn’t there more of a cross-cultural exchange? Obviously goblins are also very resentful of the witches and wizards as well.

Some Other Magical Beings from the Potterverse. Image courtesy Babbel

Aisha: Yeah. No, exactly, yeah. That maybe also shows that how again the idea of diversity was so superficial even in a fantasy you know.

Parinita: Yeah!

Aisha: Oftentimes, for example, I would honestly be wary if I see an Arab character in a movie or in a book. ’Cause usually it comes from – instead of it coming from the point of view of the character, instead of it coming from within, it comes from how Westerns or how others see Arabs, for example

Parinita: Absolutely.

Aisha: Sometimes they exotify like ooh those exotic costumes and those exotic food and this exotic music. Or sometimes it’s just even the opposite, which is worse as well.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Aisha: So I guess that’s how maybe the different characters and different species in Harry Potter are also included. Or they are included only to help with the plot, not really to mingle with each other.

Parinita: Yeah! They’re just to show a little bit of the wizarding world politics but not in any way that actually changes those politics. Because Ron has grown up in the magical world, he has a lot of the biases and assumptions that Hermione and Harry, for example, don’t. Just because they are outsiders in this culture so they’ve not really learned these things, they’re not conditioned in them. So Ron has some very problematic ideas about werewolves and House-elves and things.

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: But I’m sure a lot of wizarding students would have that as well either out of bigotry that you grow up with or just ignorance. Like Harry with the merpeople, he was just ignorant of their existence and their culture or whatever. So wouldn’t it be amazing if Hogwarts in some fanfiction or in some sequel or something, welcomed in non-human creatures within its walls too?

Aisha: Hmm yeah!

Parinita: So they have different magical things that they could contribute, their different magical things that the witches and wizards can learn from and then they can share. So centaurs and merpeople and giants and werewolves and goblins – maybe they can do things that don’t always require magic as well. Like Potions doesn’t really seem to require magic.

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: It just needs knowledge and the ingredients, almost.

Aisha: Oooh that would have been really nice.

Parinita: [laughs]

Aisha: If they had all these characters going to school alongside the wizards and the witches.

Parinita: Right? Even Muggle Studies I feel like it should be a compulsory part of the curriculum. It shouldn’t be this optional third-year fourth-year thing. Because they live with Muggles and in a Muggle society. They need to understand Muggles. And they also need to have teachers who actually know about Muggles and not just in this academic way. But actually have lived and know these things so that there’s a more authentic picture of Muggles rather than just, “Oh telephones! Weird! Why do you use telephones and not owls?”

Aisha: Even that! I mean I don’t remember very well, I could be mistaken you can correct me if I am. But in the third book when Hermione takes up Muggle Studies, doesn’t Ron really question her purpose?

Parinita: Um hmm.

Aisha: And she said – I don’t know, I could be mistaken, but she said something along the lines of she wants to see how the wizards and the witches and the wizarding world looks at Muggles from their point of view.

Parinita: Oh that’s exactly right, yeah. Because she’s this enthu cutlet who [laughs] wants to do all the things. So obviously she would be the kind of person who does Muggle Studies even though she is from a Muggle background. But I think her point is very interesting that it would be interesting to know what wizards and witches think of Muggles.

Aisha: Yeah. But then again it also shows you that it’s sort of not like own voice sort of study.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Aisha: Like it’s coming from the wizards or the witches’ point of view. Of how they see Muggles.

Parinita: Yeah it would be like a white person in the UK who has who only knows India through its maybe literature and through the films or something but hasn’t actually lived there teaching other British people about India.

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: Or similar things with Dubai. Which has happened historically! All these weird stories in the West about the East where we have like four hands and [laughs] lots of eyes – more eyes than possible for humans and these exotic birds and animals and things. So obviously that was historically there but the magical society seems to be there still. Even though it’s 1990s – 2000s, yeah. And even the food, language and things, right? Food, language and fashion are all important aspects – the clothes you wear, the things you eat, the language that you speak, you share your ideas in, they’re all important aspects of different cultures. But in the magical world, these aspects are quite limited. They all only seem to speak English, there’s again that dominance of English. I think Dumbledore and Barty Crouch Sr. are the only people who are known to speak hundreds of different languages. In Goblet of Fire, Dumbledore goes and speaks to the Merpeople in Mermish.

Aisha: Oh! Okay.

Parinita: I usually have a very terrible memory but I just finished reading this book a few days ago which is why I remember. And even Barty Crouch Sr. he’s known to speak to goblins and he speaks different languages. Whereas everyone else in the wizarding world only seems to know English.

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: In Hogwarts, there are no language studies classes that we come across.

Aisha: Yeah, that’s very interesting. And again this is where the fanfiction we talked about comes into play. What if they had different classes teaching spells in different languages?

Parinita: Yeah!

Aisha: Different spells of different cultures or …

Parinita: Yeah or have an exchange programme. For a semester, have an Arabic witch who comes in or an Arabic wizard who comes in and teaches their culture or an Indian witch or wizard who teaches. So not just magic but also the stories and all the cultural things that come with being a part of another country. The food and the clothes and things as well. How cool would Hogwarts be then? We thought Hogwarts was very cool when we were growing up because it was this magical world but now in 2020 we want Hogwarts to be much better.

Aisha: Yeah, no, exactly. I remember reading the first book … or was it the movie, I’m not sure. Remember when they’re in the train and Harry asks Ron what he’s eating or something like that. And he says corned beef.

Parinita: Yeah!

Aisha: I remember wondering what is corned beef?

Parinita: [laughs] I know! Oh my god the different food in the British magical world. And it’s all very British. Like I said, because I grew up reading Enid Blyton – who has written hundreds of books and who’s very English – so I knew some of these foods. But they all also seemed very foreign and exotic to me. Like corned beef? Hmm doesn’t sound super appetising, but okay, you do you. I would rather have like beef curry or something. Because I’m Indian, we need spices in everything. [laughs] But yeah that reminds me of another thing. So again, sorry, Goblet of Fire [laughs] I’m giving you so much attention but when the Beauxbatons and Durmstrang students come in and they have a feast and Ron makes fun of this weird looking French food which I don’t know how to pronounce, it’s some sort of fish soup. And he’s like ugh what’s this? And Hermione tells him that, oh no, I had this in France, it’s quite nice. And Ron is like, okay I I don’t want any. You can have this. And then that just got me thinking about the other food in Hogwarts as well. In Imagine a Muslim Witch, they mentioned that a little as well. If you’re a vegetarian in Hogwarts or you’re vegan, or you’re Muslim who can only eat some food or you’re Hindu who can only eat meat on some days and some kinds of food, depending on your cultural background, how do you survive in Hogwarts?

Aisha: Yeah that’s a very important question. Exactly!

Parinita: It’s not just the food but it’s also in Potions and Charms and Transfiguration classes as well. If you’re ethically against using animals or using some sort of animals based on your religious tradition, you wouldn’t want to use them in any part of your life, right?

Aisha: Right, exactly! Yeah that’s a very interesting discussion.

Parinita: I would love to read fanfiction about this. [laughs] I mean I know we read Imagine a Muslim Witch but I want to read a proper story about it.

Aisha: Yeah, exactly. I know. I mean like you said, back in the day, Harry Potter was very diverse. It was such a diverse book because you had so many different characters from different cultures or from different nationalities. But now when we talk about it and we really dissect it, it’s more like a melting pot you know. Oh you came from here, you need to melt with the rest of the people.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aisha: Or you need to ???

Parinita: And you need to leave all your everything behind.

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: Like Parvati and Padma Patil may as well have been white. Apart from their names, they don’t do anything. They don’t celebrate any festivals. We were talking about this on a previous episode with someone but they don’t eat any food that has spices in it. I live in the UK and my boyfriend is white. He doesn’t like a lot of spicy food and I need spicy food with everything. So we have to always try and come in the middle. So I can’t imagine Parvati and Padma Patil eating corned beef all the time.

Aisha: [laughs] Or even those people coming from different cities in the UK, right? Like the students. Wouldn’t they bring something from home

Parinita: Yeah, absolutely.

Aisha: ??? maybe or a chutney of some kind.

Parinita: Yeah because they do have different foods. Now that I know more about the UK food, they have different regional food. And, of course, Scotland has its own different food. Similar to England but different and we don’t really see that. Until I moved to the UK, I wouldn’t have known these Scottish reference. That Hogwarts is in Scotland first of all, I only discovered this [laughs] when I came here. And knowing all the Scottish politics and stuff within the UK or even the cultural influences, you don’t really get in the books at all. Apart from one bit, I made a note of this, where in the Yule Ball, because they’re all dressed up in these fancy outfits, Minerva McGonagall wears tartan. I don’t know if you know what tartan is.

Aisha: Oh yeah, the Scottish plaid, right?

Parinita: Yeah. So she wears tartan dress robes yeah and she has a thistle on her hat. So a thistle is the Scottish national flower which is like this really aggressive looking flower because it has a lot of nettles. So it’s basically a stabby flower. [laughs] Which is very Scottish. But they don’t mention that obviously in the books. They just mention the tartan and the thistles. And I’m like, “Oh! I see! Now I know that McGonagall is Scottish.” So yeah it’s just things that I guess if you’re not a part of that culture, you won’t pick up on these things.

Aisha: No.

Parinita: Until it is directly mentioned.

Image courtesy Wikipedia: fir0002flagstaffotos [at] gmail.com Canon 20D + Sigma 150mm f/2.8 – Own work, GFDL 1.2

Aisha: A couple of years back I went to the play [Harry Potter and the Cursed Child] which was in London. And there were different accents; people speaking different dialects or different British accents. For someone who is not from that culture, you wouldn’t really know this person is from which part of the UK.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aisha: Or this person is ??? Because we’re not part of that. But now that you mentioned how Minerva McGonagall was wearing the tartan, oh you know what, she was actually speaking in a Scottish accent in the play.

Parinita: Yeah! That’s such a good point. Because these accents, these regional accents, they also have class implications. So working class people versus posh people or middle class people have different kinds of ways of talking. It’s all English but it’s different kinds of English. And historically I think most of British media used to have a very specific kind of English. So people who didn’t live in the UK, like you and I, we didn’t grow up in the UK, we have this very specific idea of a British accent.

Aisha: Hmm.

Parinita: And I wasn’t really very familiar with the fact that there are so many different kinds of British accents and there’s like a political element in that as well because the northern English accents and things are sometimes looked down upon by different parts of the country. Because of historic, economic, social all these different contexts. And Scottish accents as well, they’ll be made fun of or Irish accents will be looked at differently. And all these things you don’t know until you know, I guess. Until you’re here.

Aisha: You can correct me as well because my memory is a little bit foggy. I haven’t re-read the book in a very long time. But I think Hagrid also had an accent in the book. So some letters were purposefully taken off, right?

Parinita: Yeah. Hagrid and also Stan Shunpike who was the Knight Bus driver. He had a different accent as well.

Aisha: See, as a non-native speaker of English, I had trouble reading Hagrid’s parts.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aisha: Even, yes exactly, the bus driver in the third book as well. I didn’t understand that they were doing that on purpose or they had some sort of maybe speech impairment or some sort of thing. Until later on I understood that ah okay different people in the UK just have different accents according to the regions they’re from.

Parinita: That’s also a way of othering, right?

Aisha: Exactly!

Parinita: If you only have Hagrid and Stan Shunpike, both of whom are on the margins of the magical society, and you’re only othering – because I’m sure that there are different students. Like Seamus he’s Irish so he would also have a different accent. But we don’t know that by reading the books except sometimes he says “me” instead of “my”. [laughs] That’s all the difference that you get.

Aisha: Yeah. Now I’m thinking about it and I’m like maybe that was purposefully done. Just to show supposedly that oh because Hagrid did not complete his education at Hogwarts or because of such and such you know.

Parinita: Oh yeah, you’re right! I didn’t think about the education aspect at all. But yeah, you’re so right.

Aisha: So I’m thinking okay did they mention the accent only when characters were seen like you said like it was an othering of the characters. Who are seen as outsiders because Hagrid literally also lives outside the school.

Parinita: Yeah! And he’s a half-giant so he’s outside the like “normal” wizarding society or magical society. And Stan Shunpike as well, he’s not … I don’t know his educational anything.

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: Did he go to school? Or what?

Aisha: Yeah, exactly.

Parinita: Just going to the fashion part or the clothing parts of the magical world and inspired by the magical world, you said that Muslim fans have a much easier time cosplaying as Harry Potter characters. It’s an idea which I loved so much.

Aisha: Yeah. I think because of the loose-fitted clothes that they wear. A lot of characters wear robes which is something very similar to what female Muslims or Arabs wear like loose-fitted cloaks or robes so it’s very easy to replicate that.

Parinita: And black as well, right? They’re all black.

Aisha: They’re all black so whenever I got to Comic Con here in Dubai, in every Comic Con, I would definitely see someone wearing a Harry Potter costume with the black robe, the neck tie and the colour of the House.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aisha: And headscarf as well. And it doesn’t seem out of character to be honest. It seems like ah this is very similar to the culture, to what we really wear. So when we were young and reading Harry Potter – I’m talking about myself in particular – I could easily imagine myself in Hogwarts.

Parinita: [laughs]

Aisha: Because my clothing wasn’t so different from what they used to wear in the school.

Parinita: Yeah! That’s true. So you identified yourself through the clothes as well.

Aisha: Exactly. And there was also the first movie or in the first book there was Professor Squirrel uh was it? Quirrell?

Parinita: Quirrell, yeah.

Aisha: Yeah. He would wear a turban.

Parinita: Yeah!

Aisha: And that’s something also culturally relevant.

Parinita: Yeah to me as well. Because that’s something that we grew up with. Of course, he was evil – spoiler alert for The Philosopher’s Stone!

Aisha: Yeah exactly. [laughs]

Parinita: But he had Voldemort hiding in his turban. But yeah, I was like, oooh a turban. Like you were saying when we were talking about this during our meeting, oh maybe he was brown.

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: It wasn’t weird because he could pass for this Sikh person in Hogwarts. Which would have been really cool. Although I don’t know any Sikh people called Quentin Quirrell. [laughs] Which seems like a very English name. But that would be amazing.

Aisha: Even in the first movie, I don’t know if you remember because it’s merely seconds – milliseconds. But when there was like a snapshot of Ron’s summer vacation in Egypt. Do you remember that part?

Parinita: Oh yeah.

Aisha: So Ron and his family were wearing Arab clothes. Like they were –

Parinita: Yeah! They were wearing robes, right? I do remember.

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: Because it was a photograph, right?

Aisha: Yeah it was a photograph.

Parinita: Yeah in The Daily Prophet.

Aisha: It was like merely a second but I remember being really excited in the movie theatre. Finally there’s a character who’s wearing something similar.

Parinita: Well I’m glad that you had a positive experience of finding your clothes in the movies. Because let me tell you the tragedy that was Parvati and Padma’s Yule Ball outfits in the Goblet of Fire movie. It disappointed millions of Indian fans all over the world because we were like we have such beautiful clothes. For us at weddings or festivals and things, wearing these clothes is very much a part of our lives. We don’t need a Yule Ball to dress up. We find any excuse to dress up in these fancy clothes, saris and lehengas and things.

Aisha: Hmm.

Parinita: So we always have these things in the house. We don’t need to buy new things for weddings and things. We wear these things. And even the cheapest whatever, like a budget-conscious outfit for a wedding or for a festival would be so much prettier than the nonsense that they wore in the Yule Ball. I’m still bitter.

Aisha: Yeah. By comparison it was just so plain!

Parinita: Yeah. There was no embroidery, there were no beads – there was nothing! It was pink and orange. It was atrocious.

Aisha: Here in Dubai, we have a district called ??? Dubai and it’s almost like a big district that has all Indian clothing stores.

Parinita: Yeah?

Aisha: And my goodness the fabrics are just dazzling.

Parinita: Yeah! Even just plain cotton fabrics with block print would have been so much prettier than whatever rubbish that they wore which someone has called bargain rack lehengas on Twitter because it’s not just me. A lot of us are still bitter, to this day. There are fans who have made these Tumblr gifsets of much better looking outfits than what Padma and Parvati wore.

Fan interpretations of Parvati and Padma’s Yule Ball outfits. Image courtesy @anumationart

Aisha: I mean I get you. It’s a very sort of Western sari. It was so plain, it was so … I remember it being one solid colour. One was pink, the other was red. Was that right? Something like that?

Parinita: Yeah. I’m going to be watching the movies again after I’m done reading the books, and I’m going to sit with anger in my heart [laughs] just waiting for it like Ah! This is all you could do. And everyone else was wearing such nice clothes. And it’s almost like what you were saying earlier about superficial diversity. Having them dress differently just to show that oh look at Hogwarts, how diverse we are. But without making any actual effort or research into it.

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: If it had been a desi or a South Asian or a brown costume designer, I’m sure they wouldn’t have chosen that. They would have chosen a much better outfit because they would know the context, right? They would know the kind of clothes that we would wear. No Indian parent would allow their child to go to this fancy ball in such plain clothes.

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: When I was a kid, I had to fight with my mum because I didn’t like wearing all the very heavy clothes just because it used to be such a pain. It used to irritate the skin and I couldn’t go running about with it. So I used to fight with my mom and she’d be like, no, no don’t wear such plain clothes. You need to wear something nicer and fancier.

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: So I don’t know how Parvati and Padma Patil’s mother let them go to the Yule Ball like that.

Aisha: Yeah same. We have similar things as well. I don’t know if it’s the same in India – but if there’s a wedding, even the children need to be to wear a little bit of gold.

Parinita: Yeah. Oh gold is a big part of it.

Aisha: Even though we don’t want to because either it hurts or it’s uncomfortable and there’s this constant fight. Where, “No! I don’t want to wear it!”

Parinita: Yeah. And I don’t even like gold! It’s too bright and shiny for me. So just aesthetically, it’s against my [laughs] aesthetic principles. But sometimes especially when you’re younger, you just have to listen to your parents. [laughs] To get on with your life. Whereas now as an adult you can fight back a little bit against these expectations. Just before we wrap up the episode I did want to give you a chance – plus I wanted to do this as well – to talk about some of your favourite fantasy worlds. Either books or just TV shows or movies or anything, which don’t have a primarily Western focus.  Have you come across that since Harry Potter or even while you were reading Harry Potter?

Aisha: Ah other than Harry Potter … no, to be honest. When I started reading, I started reading books called – a series called Zack Finns (?). I don’t know if you’ve heard of it but they were made into a Disney series as well.

Parinita: Oh right.

Aisha: It was sort of paranormal things that happens to a little boy who is in sixth or fifth grade. So I started reading that and it was set in the United States, I remember. And I read The Sleepover Club. Not The Baby-Sitters Club. The Sleepover

Parinita: Oh yeah! I had the Sleepover Club.

Aisha: Oh you did?!

Parinita: I was much more of a Babysitters Club fan myself but I did find random Sleepover Club book as well, yeah.

Aisha: Yes. And it was British, mainly. It was set in Britain and the characters were mostly Western. And then I think from there on I started to get into Harry Potter. Which, in comparison, it was far more diverse than those other books.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aisha: And then I was also into a lot of mystery. I read a lot of Christopher Pike books which was predominantly set in the United States. So no, unfortunately most of the books that I read and the things that I was a fan of were mainly set in the Western world. That’s why I was so excited. When I was a kid in the 90s and the early 2000s, Harry Potter was the most diverse book that I had come across.

Parinita: That’s true, I didn’t think about that. That there was more diversity, especially in comparison to the other things. Like I was saying Enid Blyton and I used to read the Famous Five and things that she wrote – they’re this mystery series. And very white. Very Western. No diversity. And she’s in trouble for this now but in her books, all the foreigners are either criminals or smugglers or kidnappers [laughs] and they’re all suspicious and you shouldn’t really trust them.

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: So yeah not the greatest of examples. What about now? Have you come across any more or are you a fan of or have you enjoyed any more diversity as an adult?

Aisha: I have come across a lot of novels especially Young Adult novels. I read a lot of Young Adult novels. Nowadays yes, there is a lot of diversity. I have read a lot of books.

Parinita: Do you have any favourites that you’d like to recommend?

Aisha: No. To be very honest I usually finish reading not liking them either because in most cases like you said those cultures and characters are inserted just for the sake of diversity. Usually they have a very marginal role. Sometimes I feel it’s just to cross that box.

Parinita: Yeah because oh look now we have now this brown character or this religious character so let’s tick off this diversity box.

Aisha: Absolutely. We have a female character, we have like you said a brown character, we have an Arab character from this culture from that culture – sometimes I feel it’s just to check those boxes, not really to talk about the culture. Or sometimes when they are included, they’re too assimilated into the –  mostly it’s American – into the American culture.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aisha: That you don’t really see glimpses of their culture. But recently, probably a year ago, I read this book … gosh I can’t remember the name. Basically it’s about this Pakistani female who lives in the UK and who works in the UK who’s actually writing a story about the marriage of Pakistani families in the UK and so on.

Parinita: Oooh!

Aisha: So this is one I really, really liked. It’s called Sofia something. Because her name is Sofia.

Parinita: Oh I’ll look it up. Or if you remember it, just send it to me and I’ll –

Aisha: Yes I’ll send it to you. I have that on my Goodreads.

Parinita: Oh. Yeah this is how I keep track of the books that I read as well because my memory is non-existent. So I have to have Goodreads to refer to what books I love and read. But I did make a note of a couple of books that I wanted to recommend to … well you, as well as people who are listening. And these are just fantasy books that I read recently that I really liked. So one of them is called Sorcerer to the Crown by Zen Cho. She’s a Malaysian British writer and she was featured in the Cultural Traditions of Magic episode as well of Breaking The Glass Slipper. It is very British. It’s a fantasy and it has a British magical system. But it so organically incorporates both British and Asian magical cultures and creatures. And I think a large part of that is because she is Malaysian. So for her she grew up with these things, so what she’s writing about is not exotic. She normalises both. It’s not just like a diversity thing. There were some references to India as well and Indonesia and things. So apart from exploring race, different races and national identities because it’s set in the 18th or 19th century or something so obviously the British are very suspicious about anybody who’s black or brown or doesn’t look like them. Like oh how can they have magic and things. But yeah it’s just a really fun book. It’s funny. She talks about these different things but it’s not an issue-based book, if that makes sense. It’s just incorporated very naturally into the story.

Aisha: Yeah.

Parinita: Which is really fun. And a book that I’m reading currently based on the article that we read about Muslim women writers of science fiction and fantasy or stories set in Muslim worlds and how that’s becoming a big thing.

Aisha: Yeah!

Parinita: And this one is so fun. It’s called The City of Brass by S. A. Chakraborty. It started off in Cairo and then moves to another part of Africa – a made-up part of Africa. But it has references to India as well. They have different names in this according to the map. But so many familiar elements. Things like djinn and carpets and the swords like talvar and the daggers and they’re all things I’m used to. Because in India, we had Mughal rulers a few hundred years ago, so we’ve grown up with these references as well. And the food and even the setting the kind of atmosphere that you’re describing, the kind of people, clothes everything. And religion is very much a part of the novel but without it being a big deal. You’ll just have people going to the mosque to pray. Or the main character Nahri, she’s wearing an abaya. And that’s just not a big deal. That’s just her culture. So you’re not exoticising it at all. You’re normalising it, which I love.

Aisha: Actually now that you’re talking about it, I remember a book that I had read maybe last year or the year before. It’s called We Hunt The Flame and it’s by an Arab writer.  I don’t know if she’s Arab to be honest, but I know she’s Muslim writer. Her name is Hafsah Faizal. And her setting is supposedly in Arabia without really specifying the region. Again, it’s a fantasy. So a lot of elements are also taken from Arab folktales and so on. But it’s not religious. It’s not a Muslim story. It’s just an Arab story.

Parinita: Yeah. Same.

Aisha: So there’s that, yeah. What else have I read? I’ve read some Asian inspired fantasy.

Parinita: Oooh!

Aisha: Mostly Japanese I would say.

Parinita: Oh that’s really cool.

Aisha: Yeah. But again, I don’t know much about their culture as an outsider so I don’t know how well they have incorporated cultural aspects into the stories. But yeah I’ve read some of those fantasies.

Parinita: But isn’t it cool to read about these things that are not primarily Eurocentric?

Aisha: Oh absolutely!

Parinita: Things like Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, all of these things that we’ve grown up with like Narnia and things which assumes European, Western everything as the norm. And at least for me, I didn’t even know what ideas that I had learned and I’d grown accustomed to until I read these books and a few other books as well which just disrupt those notions. But they don’t disrupt them in a way that’s making a big deal out of it. They’re just normalising another part. The City of Brass that I was talking about, just everything – the environment that they’re talking about, I was like oh right of course there would be magic here and fantasy systems set here. It’s just something that I have not read which is why it’s different for me. But why did I take for granted that there’s only one kind of magic system? Obviously there are different kinds including India. I’ve not read a lot of Indian fantasy, I’ve read some. A lot of Indian fantasy also draws on mythology which is both religion and just cultural for us in India. But there are a lot of fantastic Indian fantasy authors as well. So just these conversations, they make me so much more excited to explore diverse authors. Ever since I’ve started this podcast, that’s what I’ve been doing – exploring diverse authors.

Aisha: I get where you’re coming from. I think that that cultural background is a bonus. I guess I stopped reading fantasy for a while. I went back to reading – I read about 18th century set books.

Parinita: Oooh so historical fiction?

Aisha: Yeah. I love the Jane Austen period of time. So I read a lot of those stories.

Parinita: Oh you’re going to love A Sorcerer to the Crown.

Aisha: Oh really?

Parinita: It’s like a mix of that and fantasy.

Aisha: Okay. Sounds good. So last year I made a deliberate choice to read a little bit more fantasy because I don’t remember reading a lot of fantasy after The Hunger Games. I was like you know what, I need to include some fantasy in my reading list.

Parinita: [laughs] I’m glad.

Aisha: So I made a deliberate choice to do that last year. And most of the ones that I have read were not like you said, they were not Eurocentric you know. One was as I said, inspired by Chinese history. I read two that were inspired by Japanese ones. Although the author was not Japanese in the second book. I read another fantasy that was also Arab-inspired. But it was more inspired from stories of One Thousand and One Nights with Scheherazade.

Parinita: Oh I love retellings. Oh those are great. So if you go through your Goodreads and you do discover these names, I will for sure put the recommendations here. I’ll just read them out at the end of the episode because I’m sure a lot of people would love to discover new kinds of books.

Aisha: No that’s true, I’ll do that. I’ll have to go through my Goodreads

Parinita: Yeah. I feel your problem as a fellow Goodreads addict. [laughs] And since you like comics,  one comic that I do want to recommend is Ms. Marvel. I don’t know if you’ve come across it, it’s a superhero comic and it’s great. I was not into comics until relatively recently because I didn’t know where to start. I used to watch the Marvel movies and things but was not really interested in picking up the comics until I read Ms. Marvel in a public library a couple of years ago and my mind was just so completely blown. She’s a Muslim superhero but she lives in the US. She’s Pakistani-American but because Pakistan and India have so many shared cultural elements and history, of course, that I felt like I could see myself there. She was also a fanfiction nerd so she would go and write Marvel fanfiction when she’s out of school and things. And even though I’m not Pakistani and I’m not Muslim, for me it was that sense of seeing myself in a so much more complete way than in Parvati or Padma Patil for example. Because she was somebody I could so recognise. So yeah Ms. Marvel, for sure, you should pick up.

Aisha: Yeah. I’ve come across it actually and I think I browsed through it as well in the bookstore but I haven’t really read it so definitely putting it on my list.

Parinita: Yes! [laughs]

Aisha: Again just wanted to close with how much of a big role books can really take in one’s childhood and one’s adolescence. At the time, as we said, you grow up with Harry – when he was eleven, you were eleven. It was similar to me as well. By the time I was reading the fifth book, I was also fifteen. I think I was Harry’s age in fifth year. So yeah I couldn’t relate to the characters culturally but I could relate to some of the things that they went through. Like school stuff, some of the stuff that they went through with their teachers, how sometimes you felt even though you were surrounded by your friends, you felt a little bit different, right?

Parinita: Yeah.

Aisha: Different hobbies and different abilities that you have. Sometimes you are marginalised and so on. So I think at the time like you said in comparison to other things that were available, back then it was a very rich book; it was a very diverse [laughs] not by today’s standards for sure but for back then.

Parinita: No, absolutely.

Aisha: Yeah. I think it was. And I think that’s why even today whenever I hear the word Harry Potter and so on, I get so excited. Because it’s very nostalgic. It reminds me of all those good memories I had reading the books

Parinita: And you’re connecting to people that you wouldn’t otherwise have connected with. Like you and I, we come from Mumbai and Dubai, different cities, different cultures, different everything. But sharing the love of Harry Potter and through that finding other things that we share in common, I love that.

Aisha: Yeah. Exactly. No absolutely. And like you said, imagine those people who read those books and don’t see themselves in the stories. I think it’s very important that you can relate and you feel like I have a place in this fandom, I have a place in this story or in this media. So it’s important to include those cultural backgrounds and stories and have a central role you know. It’s not just to tick boxes. Just because oh here is ???

Parinita: Not just a referee in Goblet of Fire. [laughs] Not just a referee in the World Cup.

Aisha: Yeah. Referee, exactly.

Parinita: [laughs]

Aisha: Have real characters. There’s no shame in characters bringing in their cultural parts. I don’t see why they have to assimilate to the dominant culture or with the dominant characters. Like they can just ??? So yeah I think it’s just that. Seeing themselves in those stories – told in those stories and books, it’s very exciting.

Parinita: Yeah. I absolutely agree. Thank you so much Aisha for chatting with me on the podcast today and just expanding my imagination

Aisha: I had a blast

Parinita: Beyond Indian and Western cultures and ideas. It’s just been so fun!

Aisha: It was so much fun for me as well. It was like a trip down memory lane trying to remember all those memories.

Parinita: Absolutely. [laughs]

[Outro music]

You’ve been listening to our episode about cultural norms and cultural diversity in fantasy media. Thank you so much Aisha for your time and for such a fun conversation! I’m so glad our chat allowed us to reimagine a more radically inclusive Potterverse. For anybody interested in expanding your to-read list, here are the book recommendations Aisha couldn’t remember but promised to look up: Sophia Khan is Not Obliged by Ayisha Malik, We Hunt the Flame by Hafsah Faizal, and Descendant of the Crane by Joan He.

[Outro music]

I’d love to hear from you and talk to you – so any feedback, comments or critiques are very welcome! Get in touch with me on social media, leave a comment on my blog, or email me at edps@leeds.ac.uk. If you’d like to follow the podcast or the PhD project, visit my website marginallyfannish.org. Here you’ll find the podcast episodes, transcripts, episode resources and links, and my research blog. You can also receive updates on Facebook or Instagram at Marginally Fannish or on Twitter where I’m @MarginalFannish. I share episode resources on social media so you can find a bunch of excellent fan podcasts and essays to look up. If you enjoyed this podcast, please share it with anyone you think will enjoy it too.

Thanks for listening! Tune in again next time for all things fannish and intersectional!

 

Episode 20 Because We Couldn’t See Ourselves: Cultural Representations and Cultural Imperialism in Western Media/Fandom

Episode Resources:

1) Fan podcast – Our Opinions Are Correct: What’s So Bad About Cultural Appropriation?

2) Fan podcast – Imaginary Worlds: Fantastical Feasts 

3) Fan podcast – Our Opinions Are Correct: Imaginary Immigrants And Time-traveling Refugees

4) Fan podcast – Alohomora: Muggles & Squibs – Not On The List

5) Fan podcast – Woke Doctor Who: Imperialism and the Doctor

6) YouTube Video – Empire and Imperialism In Children’s Cartoons—A Super Light Topic

 

Episode Transcript

This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity. If you would prefer the original, unedited version, please let me know!

[Intro music]

Welcome to Marginally Fannish, a show where we aim an intersectional lens at some of our favourite media and their fandoms.

[Intro music]

My name is Parinita Shetty and you’re listening to the twentieth episode of Marginally Fannish. In this episode, I talk to Rita Faire about cultural imperialism in Western media and its online fan communities. As fans from the Philippines and India who have grown up in these fandom spaces, we also talk about how our participation has helped us decolonise our imaginations.

Media fans usually don’t start off by interrogating ideas that they’ve internalised about different cultures – including their own. The norms and structures within both media and fandom dictate which kind of fannish identities and cultures are considered superior. In many Western media fandom spaces, the cultural references and assumptions about people’s origins tend to privilege the US and the UK. For fans from certain backgrounds, online fandoms can erase parts of their identities. These spaces can offer limited narratives of both dominant and marginalised cultures.

However, critical discussions in fandom can help people think about issues in new ways. Encountering fans and perspectives that reflect identities which are otherwise marginalised in these spaces can disrupt taken-for-granted narratives. Talking about differently marginalised and privileged representations can help fans reflect on their assumptions and critically analyse their experiences, resulting in a collective process of decolonisation. It can also help people develop the confidence to challenge cultural inaccuracies and biases. Identifying colonised minds can offer the first step in moving beyond them and go on to diversify imaginations.

Find our conversation about all this and more in today’s episode.

Happy listening!

 

[Intro music]

Parinita: Today I’m so happy to welcome Rita Faire to the podcast. Rita is a Filipino doctoral researcher and associate lecturer in Edinburgh Napier University’s Scottish Centre of the Book. Her current research is on picturebook co-edition practices in Europe’s periphery publishing environments. Rita is a board member of Researchers Exploring Inclusive Youth Literature (REIYL) and developed ‘Coming into View’, a literacy programme that’s aimed at understanding children of colour’s sense of belonging in children’s literature. She is currently co-developing a critical reading programme exploring the intersections of oppression in the creative industries. A lot of Rita’s work is after my own heart as is her participation in online fandom. And since we’ve both grown up in Asia in different countries, in this episode, we’re going to explore the different national cultures in global online fandom and we’re also going to chat about the different kinds of labour undertaken by fans from marginalised groups, especially when the creator of their favourite fictional worlds shares bigoted views. Before we get into that, though, Rita could you share your own experiences within online fandom?

Rita: Hi! So my experiences in online fandom, I think is very similar to a lot of people in their early 30s.

Parinita: [laughs]

Rita: [laughs] I got into it because of Harry Potter.

Parinita: Yes! Me too!

Rita: Actually, that’s not accurate. Sorry, as soon as I said it, I realised like I don’t think it was Harry Potter that brought me in.

Parinita: Oh!

Rita: I think it was anime. Because my first foray into fan communities was actually fanfiction.net and I was writing anime fanfiction. And then for some reason stumbled into Harry Potter fanfiction and that just owned my soul after that.

Parinita: [laughs]

Rita: So from there, I went into fan art communities that made banners for stories on fan fiction collectives or archives. I did online roleplaying as well in various sites; created online role playing sites as well.

Parinita: Oh my god that’s amazing.

Rita: Oh yeah I was definitely one of those people who lived on the internet and just got a lot of my social interaction from there because it was so different from the daily interactions that I had. I discussed things there that I didn’t discuss in real life.

Parinita: Yeah absolutely. It’s similar for me as well. I’m an extremely online person and I’ve been since I first got a computer. And even before that, when we used to visit cyber cafes in the neighbourhood, me and my friend.

Rita: [laughs] Oh my god.

Parinita: [laughs] Yeah that was a thing when I was a teenager. And we used to go and do that. But also what you’re saying about the quality of interactions being so different. I find that even now. I connect most with people who are fannish as in they have that enthusiasm about a text or media or something. Even if I’m unfamiliar with that particular fandom, I’m still connecting to them in a way that I wouldn’t possibly with another person who wouldn’t identify as a fan. Even though now I think because mainstream media is so prevalent in everybody’s lives, everyone is a fan of something. But I think that there’s a difference as well between how you’re a fan online and if you’re a part of a fan community in whatever way, even if you’re a lurker. It’s very different from just, “Oh I like that thing.”

Rita: Yeah. I think at least in the Filipino context, a lot of it has to do with how we view enthusiasm. Or open enthusiasm. ’Cause fan cultures online is a space that really celebrates enthusiasm. You can never be too keen about something. So there’s this concept in the Philippines, it’s called [says Filipino word]. And I guess it translates to keenness. And it’s like when you’re too keen about something or you feel something too much, then that gets kind of looked down upon. And you couldn’t be that massive of a fan in real life ’cause then I don’t know, it would be too vulnerable. It would be too revealing. Something like that. But you’d definitely be judged for it. Whereas online, you get to shed that artifice. And just be your authentic nerdish self.

Parinita: Yeah. [laughs]

Rita: [laughs]

Parinita: In the Philippines, is that just in terms of books and things?

Rita: No.

Parinita: Or is that just fandom in general?

Rita: That’s not even just fandom in general, it’s even in the arts. If you’re a singer and you just feel like you’re such a good singer, oh you’re feeling it too much. And I don’t know where that comes from. ’Cause I’m really hesitant to say that it’s a sense of Asian reservedness because Filipinos are also really well known to be big personalities. We are the karaoke people of the world.

Parinita: [laughs]

Rita: [laughs] I think that’s something that Filipinos are really well known for. We karaoke without shame. And regardless of talent.

Parinita: [laughs]

Rita: So why we would have that kind of reservation when it comes to fandom or when it comes to talent is beyond me. [laughs]

Parinita: Yeah that’s really interesting because in India, even though something like  Harry Potter is more mainstream, most people would still read the books and even if they love it, they might not necessarily want more out of it like going online and engaging with fan productions or fan texts or fanfiction or whatever. But we have different regional cinema. So we have a Bollywood which is Hindi language and then we have many -ollywoods depending on which state you’re from. And those have massive fan followings. As in actors and musicians and singers. There were fans of this South Indian movie star called Rajnikanth.

Rita: Um hmm.

Parinita: And there’s this group of fans that went to the US because that’s where he premiered the movie first. So they flew to the US, even though I think the Indian premiere was two days later or something. And they create these altars like not temples in the religious sense, but they might as well be. Because they have the photographs and they put flowers on them and things you would do in a Hindu temple. So there is a huge craze which is quite mainstream in India. But that would be more for movies and singers and things who are more accessible to a larger mass of people than say something like Harry Potter or Doctor Who or these Western media fandoms that we’re talking about. So when I was growing up, I did feel like it was just me because when I was online. Nobody really seemed to say what country they’re from. Or if they did, they largely seemed to be American. Not broader Western but specifically American. So all these references and all the slang and everything that I picked up on was not just through fandom, it was through media as well. And it was largely American. I remember the first and maybe only fanfic that I wrote – it was a Harry Potter thing. And I had made a reference to a Star Trek fan. Do you remember they used to be called Trekkies?

Rita: Yeah but now they’re called Trekkers.

Photo of two men standing beside an altar with a photo of Amitabh Bachchan, Bollywood actor

Image courtesy India Times

Parinita: Yeah. I referenced it in a way that was sort of derogatory. And I had no familiarity with Star Trek. [laughs] I did not know anybody who watched Star Trek. But because if you’re on the internet, you pick up on these references. And the corner of the internet that I inhabited, Star Trek fans seemed to be a very specific kind of fan. And in my fanfiction I’d written a random reference to that without really understanding what that meant. And now my boyfriend, he’s a huge Star Trek fan so I can’t show my fanfiction to him [laughs] because it obviously marginalises him. But yeah just thinking about how you internalise these ideas without really interrogating them.

Rita: Yeah. Well listening to you talk about fandom with the different -ollywoods of India, I started thinking … actually there were instances like that in the Philippines. There definitely were. But they just never were around the things that I liked. [laughs]

Parinita: Yeah. [laughs]

Rita: Or maybe I took pride in not liking those things. I don’t know why. And I think that judgement of how much you’re a fan of is very reserved for a specific identity or like a specific class. I think some of it is definitely attached to class.

Parinita: Yeah.

Rita: But then another part of it I’m now thinking is that that’s slowly being eroded by the fact that the Philippines is crazy over anything Korean. I don’t know if this happened in India. But around the early 2000s, that was when the Philippines stopped being obsessed with Spanish language telenovelas and that’s when we started being obsessed with Asian telenovelas. At first it was Taiwanese with Meteor Garden and F5 And then it became Coffee Prince (?) and stuff like that. And I think at that point I was too into my online fandoms to engage with those fandoms. Because you can only have so much space in your life to obsess.

Parinita: Yeah. [laughs]

Rita: And while you were talking about that internalisation of certain values, I realised that I grew up around fans. ’Cause my two uncles were huge Trekkies/Trekkers. They made models of gundams.

Parinita: Oh!

Photo of a gundam i.e. robot model

Image courtesy whatNerd

Rita: And they had little figurines of Dragon Ball Z stuff. So I grew up around people who really were demonstratively and monetarily engaged in their fandoms. But I find that since I was young when this happened, when I engaged in fandoms, online communities were a free way for me to do that. Because you don’t have to buy the merchandise. I can create art. I don’t have to build models because I can write fanfiction. And those kind of internalised things that you said, I’m thinking now that I think you’re right, we never really discussed our nationalities. Although I can remember in this very distinct instance when I was in the fan art community, I met one Asian person who was very demonstratively Asian. And it’s because their handle or I think it might have been their real name was very distinctly Asian. You could not mistake that for any other kind of nationality or ethnicity. And that was the first time I realised, “Oh there are Asian people like me online.” Because we’re not all just erased of our identities.

Parinita: Yeah.

Rita: And I guess it’s easier for some than others. But then that person was the only person I remember really putting their identity forward. They were Chinese-American and they were writing fanfiction with Chinese-Americans in them. They were making art with Asian faces on them. And at first I thought, it’s not the most popular thing to do. And I never really critically engaged that until now. Now that I think about it, now I’m wondering, whatever happened to this person – are they still a writer?

Parinita: Yeah! And they were way ahead of their times as well.

Rita: Yeah. ’Cause  it was the kind of open reclaiming that you didn’t see as much until now over the last few years.

Parinita: Yeah. I mean now it is more of a thing where people are identifying themselves belonging to not just nationalities but also you know other groups. But especially ten or fifteen years ago, that was not a thing at all. So there were these ICQ chatrooms. Again this is like [laughs] way back when I was a teenager when I first started engaging with fandom. And I think there was this room for fans of books or something – I don’t know. And we were just talking. I think I was like 13 or 14 or something. And that was when someone had recommended Harry Potter to me – not Harry Potter, sorry. Lord of the Rings. And I’d never heard of Lord of the Rings before just because the people that I knew in my offline life, nobody was a big reader and nobody would have known to recommend fantasy texts to me. But this person recommended Lord of the Rings to me because I loved Harry Potter so much and they were like, “Oh you like fantasy so you read this.” And then I think they said they were from somewhere in the US and then I said, “Oh I’m from India. Have you ever heard of India?” [laughs] It was such a colonised mindset. Of course now I would be like, “How could you not have heard of India?” And I would judge someone for not having heard of India if they’re online and they’re an online person and read things and engage with the world. But at that time, I had this mindset because of all the media that I was consuming, not just movies and books and things but also fandom. Because all the fanfiction and everything was set in the West. So it was in the UK or in the US – very Western contexts. So obviously I thought that everybody, even the fans, would only be in that context. And then who cares about India? Why would anybody know about India? Which now thinking back about that, oh my god what a naïve little child I was. [laughs]

Rita: Well to be fair, I still get people who don’t know where the Philippines is. I kid you not. And I have to tell them yeah, it’s in Asia, it’s in Southeast Asia. And people will still confuse Southeast Asia with East Asia and South Asia. I’m glad that now we’re having these discussions. And that we can openly say, “Oh actually, that’s wrong.” And you don’t feel embarrassed for correcting someone. Because that’s usually what happened before. If people mistook you for something else or had misinformation about your identity or anything within your context, you were really embarrassed to correct them. I remember saying that I was Filipino in an online space before and then realising that actually the other person I was talking to was also Filipino.

Parinita: Oh!

Rita: And we never realised. And now the thing I’m thinking about is whether or not we were both Filipino in the Philippines. ’Cause she made a comment on the university I went to. That’s how we realised we were Filipino. I mentioned what university I was going to that I’d just … I can’t remember if I’d just gotten into that university at the time. It was brought up, I mentioned it. And she said, “Oh! Certain comment.” Might have been derogatory.

Parinita: [laughs]

Rita: … Oh actually! Sorry I’m just replaying this entire conversation in my head right now as we talk on a podcast. Which really shouldn’t be the time when you do this. But no, she mentioned which university she was from. And I said, “Ooh!” Possibly derogatory as well. [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs]

Rita: So yeah, she was from the Philippines as well! I didn’t even realise it. Oh see now that I’m thinking about it, who else did I talk to who was possibly a secret Filipino?

Parinita: [laughs]

Rita: [laughs]

Parinita: I don’t know if you’re familiar with Rukmini Pande’s work at all? She’s an Indian fan studies researcher who has written this book called Squee From The Margins. And I know you’re not really into fandom studies as much but a lot of her conversation is looking at postcolonialism and race and racism but in fandom, rather than in children’s literature.

Rita: I love it!

Parinita: And she draws on her own experiences as well growing up as a fan in India. And when reading that book, I felt so seen! Because she spoke about the same things that she thought she was the only Indian because like her and unlike you, I’d never met anybody at least in Mugglenet or any of these other spaces, ICQ whatever – who loved the same things but who were also from the same country. I don’t know if you ever had Orkut. Is that a thing that ever made its way to the Philippines?

Rita: I’m not sure now.  I don’t know. I don’t think so.

Parinita: It was huge in India and Brazil of all places. [laughs]

Rita: Oh the intersections of India and Brazil.

Parinita: Yeah. I mean currently it’s fascism so earlier at least it was better. But it was this social networking website. It was strange and really popular for a while. And now that I’m thinking about it, that was very much drawn on national lines. Most of the people that I knew there or had on my friends list or whatever they called on Orkut were Indian. They had things that resembled forum posts and we spoke about Harry Potter in that. So now just thinking about it, that’s the only Indian interaction I had. But I think in my head, because of the colonised mindset – and I obviously wasn’t able to articulate this at the time – but it wasn’t as much transformative fandom as it was just, “Oh we love this thing.” So there would be games and stuff on the forum but not really fanfiction or fan art. Maybe some roleplaying but not really creative things in the way that something like Mugglenet for example would have. So in my head I think I drew a distinction between the two that, “Oh Orkut full of Indian people and obviously not as good as this American website that is full of Americans and I don’t know secret Filipinos [laughs] who are talking about this thing.” So then as a teenager, just because of the social conditioning that you’re prey to, I decided that this was better than the other. And just now talking about it, I’m thinking that, oh wait I did have interactions with Indian fans but just obviously not in a way that I respected. [laughs] Which is hmm!

Rita: Well that’s the thing about it, isn’t it? We remember being outsiders that we associated so much with our experience online that it kind of drowns out the experiences where we weren’t outsiders, where we weren’t the only people of colour in the room.

Parinita: Yeah.

Rita: Or in the online chat as it were. I don’t know if you had the same experience and I would love to hear if you did. When your online and your real-life life crashed together. Your online and your real-life fandom.

Parinita: Hmm. In what way?

Rita: So when I went to university, the continuing saga. This is very chronological now. [laughs] When I went to university, in my final year of university I think, there was and I kid you not, a Harry Potter class.

Parinita: [gasps] What?!

Rita: There was a Harry Potter class. Shoutout to Anne Sangil – Anne Frances Sangil who created this module because it was [chef’s kiss] the most engaged literary criticism I ever experienced in university.

Parinita: [gasps again] I am so jealous!

Rita: It was so good. We discussed things like activism, through the lens of Dobby and freeing the house-elves and that sort of thing. Sorry, through S.P.E.W. I’m trying to think if we discussed race. I’m not sure that we did. But I’m sure current iterations of the module are still doing that. But yeah, it was a really in-depth discussion of Harry Potter. And so everyone in that class was either a huge Harry Potter fan online or they were newbies who thought this was a really easy class. They were very wrong.

Parinita: [laughs]

Rita: But then it brought the stuff that I experienced online into its physical form. Which was we created art, we translated Harry Potter and did a play of Deathly Hallows. That was a thing that I’m still weirdly proud of to this day. [laughs] And then that class introduced me to because that class engaged with Pinoit (?) Potter. Which is the Filipino chapter of the Harry Potter fandom. And so I got to go to events.

Parinita: Oh my god.

Rita: I got to go to a live reading of my professor’s critical analysis of Voldemort’s anti-hero’s journey. Fantastic. We speculated about the last book because it hadn’t come out yet at that point. But instead of doing it in a chat, we were doing it in a real space. Even though we all existed in those spaces.

Parinita: Wow.

Rita: And that was such a surreal experience for me.

Parinita: Oh that sounds amazing. The closest I’ve come to that in my university – so for my undergrad, I did mass media and focused on journalism. But in my second year, we had a module called Culture Studies and it was a very introductory thing because it was just for a semester. But one of the final assignments was to either describe or to write an essay about a specific subculture of anything in the world. [laughs]

Rita: [laughs]

Parinita: I don’t remember the guidelines. But because I was deep into my Harry Potter online fandom then, I thought that Harry Potter fandom would be an interesting subculture to write about. And I ran it by my lecturer and she was like yeah, yeah that sounds great. So I spent so much time putting this together. And I wanted to also not make it a boring essay which I would for any other class because it was something that I loved so much. It was such a labour of love, much like this podcast really, that I wanted to present it in a different format. I made it this whole art thing where I cut out Platform 9 and 3/4 tickets. And I made all these wands and things and just made this huge thing. So she was familiar with the text, with Harry Potter itself. But she wasn’t familiar with the fandom or with me as I found out. I was a maximalist. [laughs] Minimalism has never been part of my aesthetic. So there was just this one small corner that was looking very empty to me so I found the smallest bit of text that I could fit into it which was Accio brain? Accio brain? [tries different pronunciations] I don’t know how you

Rita: I never know how to pronounce it.

Parinita: Yeah, me neither. So whatever Accio – Accio [tries different pronunciations] brain. And I only found that because I literally looked up quotes of Harry Potter, you know how they have these compilations of quotes online. And that was the smallest that would fit. It’s from the fifth book when they’re in the Ministry and they’re running from the Death Eaters and they’re in the brain room.

Rita: Oh yeah.

Parinita: [laughs] So I put that in. But obviously she knew the text enough to take great offense at that phrase because she thought I was implying that she was brainless.

Rita: [laughs]

Parinita: And she failed me on that! And I was the most Hermione of Hermione students. And I was just so heartbroken that my labour of love was rejected so I never brought fandom into any of my other university projects.

Rita: You never brought it into real life.

Parinita: Never again. Well, until my master’s. [laughs] And now. So what about when you moved to the UK? Have you been engaging with fandom now?

Rita: I think it was just being so busy with studies that actually took me out of online fandom.

Parinita: Hmm.

Rita: Because up until the first two terms of my master’s, I was fine with engaging in online fandom. I was still on RP [roleplay] sites and stuff. And I still joined in the discourse, I still created art. But because I got so busy with my dissertation, I kind of disengaged. And I don’t know if you felt that way with online fandom as well but there is that sense of like if you don’t engage enough, you lose relevance.

Parinita: Yeah.

Rita: You do. You quickly disappear from the zeitgeist. Not just in your understanding of the fandom but also in the way that people interact with you. Because you’re no longer a daily part of their life. And there were times when I tried to regain that. To regain that space. But it didn’t really feel like it was my space anymore.

Parinita: Hmm.

Rita: So I kind of gently bowed away. Oh no actually I switched platforms for a while. I went to Tumblr. And I think Tumblr – R.I.P. – was a beautiful, beautiful space for me. Because it allowed me to engage in multiple fandoms at the same time. It wasn’t just a dedicated site anymore. I could do whatever the hell I wanted. So I had a lot of Sherlock engagement, I engaged in a lot of Pacific Rim, there was a lot of Deathless. So I was all over that. And I don’t know how I petered out. It might just be my exhaustion with social media now [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs]

Rita: It’s just I don’t engage with fandoms anymore. But then I realised my engagement with fandom is now just a two-way channel where me and my sister just text random things to each other. In the same way that we used to message people on chat boxes when something happened. So that’s been the extent of my fan engagement now. Which is kind of sad. I don’t want to say, oh you grow up and then you’re no longer a fan. That’s false. That’s completely false. It just kind of lose its place.

Parinita: Yeah. It’s just different ways of engaging with fandom, I think. Because I know there are a lot of older people – older as in like 50s, 60s – who are still active members of online fandom.

Rita: So true.

Parinita: But for me I was the same as you. I have a really obsessive personality. So I was online and in fandom for many years. But then once I got busy with other things, with work and stuff, I just didn’t have enough time and brainspace to dedicate to that. And I was largely a lurker, apart from that one time I wrote fanfiction. And now with this fan podcast. Otherwise, I’ve largely just been listening and reading and looking at art and things.

Rita: Yeah.

Parinita: And even that requires so much more time and brainspace than I had to give at that time. I was a part of Tumblr as well, briefly, but that is a not a good space for an obsessive person.

Rita: Oh it’s really not.  You just get drowned in all of the retumble – what is it called again? It’s not retweet oh god.

Parinita: Uh …

Rita: Reblogs!

Parinita: Reblogs, yes.

Rita: You just drown in all the reblogs and stuff.

Parinita: And it’s a great space for fandom

Rita: Wonderful.

Parinita: But then it just gets a lot!

Rita: Yeah. It gets overwhelming.

Parinita: Yeah. So for me, I also sort of bowed out. But then during my master’s, it was a master’s in children’s literature. But I’m not a huge literary analysis person. Because I’ve worked in schools and with kids and books and bookshops and activities and children’s literature festivals and things separately, so I like more reader response things, and reader interpretation than my solo individual interpretation of the book. So for me, fandom just made sense. And that’s why for my master’s, I looked at Facebook fan pages which were much less demanding than if I’d gone on say Archive Of Our Own or Tumblr or something.

Rita: Oh my gosh yeah.

Parinita: Because that would have been … I would have quickly lost sense of any boundaries. But Facebook is this contained space and it has a lot of screenshots and links to other websites and platforms. So it’s a nice accumulation. And then now for my PhD, I’m doing the fan podcast. And I’ve become a fan of fan podcasts.

Rita: [laughs]

Parinita: I think when I was younger, I used to love fiction and art and now I love critiques. I love the critical fans who love the things that they are watching and reading and whatever.

Rita: So true.

Parinita: But they love them enough to critique them as well. Critique elements that fall short because they want it to be better.

Rita: Well see, now that you’ve put it that way, it just feels like academia especially, kids lit academia, is just fandom.

Parinita: Absolutely!

Rita: It’s just another form of fandom. It’s fandom that’s legitimised by universities.

Parinita: [laughs]

Rita: That’s essentially it. All of this talk of PhDs and fandom, reminds me of when I was on one of the platforms I was part of, one of the admins there was doing her PhD on Victorian literature while actively being part of the fandom. And now in retrospect I think to myself, how the heck did you have time?

Parinita: How!? How.

Rita: [laughs] How!?

Parinita: Oh my god. Maybe it was a way to distract from the endless, [laughs] endless pit of despair that the PhD eventually becomes, as much as you love it

Rita: So true.

Parinita:. Much like fandom. [laughs] Academia, fandom you put in so much into it and you become a different version of yourself.

Rita: Well now I’m starting to think, was Harry Potter part of her PhD? Because a lot of the things that she wrote were very Victorian – the Victorian set or Victorian themes, gothic. Now I’m starting to think, did she do that? Or am I just hoping that she maintained her sanity by doing that?

Parinita: Yeah! Because I know a few people who are doing their PhD – and someone in one of my previous episodes as well – who found herself in an academic block because of the pandemic and the world and everything that’s going on. And she couldn’t really think in terms of academia and couldn’t bring those ideas to the fore. So she just went back to fandom after a break of five years or so and now is just churning out 10,000 word fanfics on a fandom I’ve forgotten. That’s her way to maintain something that she can control, I guess, in a world that you can’t control any longer.

Rita: Just even thinking about that – writing 10,000 words a day. I used to be able to do that in fanfiction. I cannot do that for my PhD. [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs] Because as much as you love your PhD, it’s not the same kind of love.

Rita: Well, you don’t have to cite theory in your fanfiction now, did you? [laughs]

Parinita: But saying that, I think the sort of conversations fans are having is similar to academia – which is another reason for this project, because I’ve learned so much from fandom. After I moved past the – not past the – moved from the fanfiction part of fandom to the more nonfiction, critical aspects of it, I found that the way that they have arguments and articulate these arguments, they do a lot of stuff that I recognise in academia.

Rita: So true.

Parinita: I don’t know how the schools in the Philippines were but at least when I was growing up, the mainstream education system then and even to a large extent now, in India, isn’t really conducive to thinking about things in a way that places them in context with the real world. It’s more like you’re learning these facts.

Rita: Yes! Yeah.

Parinita: And you’re not learning how these facts are relevant or how they work together. You’re not learning how to think. You’re just learning what to think and you’re not learning anything beyond that. And for me, I was really good at that. [laughs] I was really good at learning what to think and memorising these things and spouting them out in exam papers. But it’s fandom that made me think about how to think. And also helped me unlearn some of these things. When you talk about decolonising, for me, that whole process started and continues online and in fandom as well.

Rita: So true. I remember in one of my experiences before, I was either an admin or one of the mods for an RPG site. And one of our members called out the fact that our panellists was mostly white faces. And that was the first time I’d ever encountered that – like think about the faces that you’re putting forward for people to portray themselves as; portray their characters as. If you don’t give them a choice, then you’re whitewashing your community. I don’t think at the time I critically engaged with it. But I did take on those lessons without the theory that academia forces upon us.

Parinita: Yeah.

Rita: But it’s just this real-life realisation like, oh of course you are erasing identities in a way. And I’ve had several experiences of that before where fandom critically engaged me into checking my privilege. Or checking how I portray a world, especially in original RPGs where you do a lot of worldbuilding. Like why is your medieval world so Westernised? And don’t just say it’s because it’s based off of Game of Thrones. Because that’s not an excuse anymore. So yeah it was really, really interesting going through that process. And I feel that the online community we left is so much better than the online community we went into.

Parinita: Absolutely.

Rita: It kind of makes me feel so jealous that I am not part of this online community. Because you’re right, it does critically engage. And one of the major topics that we’re discussing today is problematic authors. And the way that fandom has engaged with this discussion of problematic authors is something that I don’t know if I would have seen a couple of years back; ten years back. I don’t know if there would be fans who would say, no, actually I can disengage from this because this is problematic. And not just say, oh this is problematic but give out reasoned arguments as to why it is. Fans are reading up. Fans don’t just know the book, they know the context that the book exists in and they know the discourses around that book. That’s part of what being a fan is. That’s part of the obsession that comes with fandom. And the fact that they’re marrying that with critical engagement is just something so beautiful and gives me hope for the world in this year of our lord 2020.

Parinita: [laughs]

Rita: [laughs]

Parinita: Not to say that fandom can’t be problematic because it can.

Rita: So true!

Parinita: I for sure in my own podcast and in my own experience as well have largely encountered the more progressive aspects of fandom. It’s a deliberate construction as well like the podcasts that I choose to listen to and the articles that I choose to read and the people I choose to follow on Twitter or wherever. So it’s obviously a deliberately constructed echo chamber, which I’m very happy with. I know echo chambers are dissed frequently.

Rita: [laughs]

Parinita: But I don’t want to engage with the horribleness that exists. I mean the world is horrible enough as it is.

Rita: Well part of the echo chamber is really protecting yourself against harmful discussions that could harm your mental health. And I understand that has detrimental aspects to it but I guess you could say echo chamber is a neutral term. It’s not something bad and it’s not something good. It depends on what it brings back to both sides of it.

Parinita: Yeah. People who are in leadership positions, who influence politics or culture where they have the financial, social, structural capital, is different from someone like a fan. A fan has other contexts as well but we’re not really influencing on a large scale how elections work, for example. Or how media is created and media is made or shared. So I think that it’s okay for us to have echo chambers because I don’t need to know what this terrible person who thinks Indians or immigrants should be deported all the time or thinks like England is for white people. I don’t really want this person in my online life.

Rita: That being said, one of the fan sites that I was part of way back during the Obama versus McCain election, there was an actual thread on the forums that discussed people’s political beliefs when it comes to them.

Parinita: Ah!

Rita: Yeah there were actually political discussions on platforms. I know that Paul Ryan was brought up a lot and fiscal conservativism. There was space for that. And our politics still show in the things that we write, I think.

Parinita: Yeah absolutely.

Rita: In the way that people get reviewed and stuff. But it wasn’t a neutral space. And I think that’s where the fallacy is. We’ve been talking about how online fandom erased certain parts of our identities. But they were never really erased. They were always there. But people either just chose to ignore them or we weren’t part of the discussions where people talked about those identities.

Parinita: Yeah. Also this forum you’re talking about, even in my master’s dissertation, there was this thing about comparing Kingsley and Fudge to the current political leaders. It was something to the effect of I wish we had a Kingsley Shacklebolt

Rita: Yes!

Parinita: Rather than all the Fudges that we have. And it led to this discussion from different countries and also different political leanings. About who is really Kingsley and who’s really Fudge. And there was I think a Pakistani fan and there was an Indian fan. Again, I wasn’t interacting with the fans, so it was mostly through lurking.

Collage of Harry Potter characters Kingsley Shacklebolt and Cornelius Fudge. Text says; We need more leaders like Kingsley instead of all the Fudges we have at the moment

Rita: Yeah. This was the lurking party.

Parinita: Yeah. [laughs] But it was very focused on the US elections at the time. And that was during Obama and Hilary Clinton. Even the forum that you’re talking about, how many fans online would have this kind of discussion with Filipino politics or Indian politics?

Rita: Exactly! Yeah. And the fact that I was a Filipino discussing American politics. To be fair, there is a degree of how much American politics does affect us because of our colonial past. But at the same time, we wouldn’t talk about Filipino elections on that. You’re absolutely correct. That’s one way of almost cultural imperialism that happens in fan spaces. Because the things that we talk about more often than not are US or UK.

Parinita: Yeah.

Rita: I mean in Harry Potter, you can clearly see that because the preoccupations of the Harry Potter fandom is the UK. It’s sounding more UK, using UK terminology, slang terms. If you sounded more British in your writing, then that meant you were a good writer. It didn’t even take into account the story but it’s just like if you sounded – if your work read that way, then you were a good writer.

Parinita: Yeah there was a term for it, right? Brit-picking.

Rita: Yeah! As a Filipino, I remember when I first read Harry Potter at the age of eleven or something, I was so confused when they said jumpers instead of sweaters.

Parinita: Yeah.

Rita: [laughs] There are a lot of things that confused me as a little eleven-year-old. And it’s not just because of my youth. It’s because I never consumed media that called it like that. And because I loved Harry Potter so much it develops this Anglophilia in you.

Parinita: For sure.

Rita: And then you start living this life of aspiring towards Anglicanising yourself.

Parinita: Absolutely. And in terms of cultural imperialism and cultural politics, that takes over all aspects of your life, right?

Rita: So true!

Parinita: It’s not just the things that you read but it’s the language and what sort of food seems cool to you and what seems not as aspirational.

Rita: Exactly!

Parinita: It is so … Eurocentric.

Rita: Yeah. And even when I think about why I decided to go to the UK for my master’s degree, unfortunately because of how language and imperialism works, I spoke English and I was not entertaining learning a different language at that point in my life.  [laughs]

Parinita: Yeah.

Rita: I sincerely regret that. I wish I’d learned a different language. So I was choosing between the US, Canada, Australia and the UK. And, of course, one of the considerations was the fact that education in the UK is actually cheaper. Especially in Scotland compared to all those different countries. But there was also that little tick in my brain, that’s the land of Harry Potter.

Parinita: [laughs]

Rita: And it wasn’t just me that saw that. It was every person that I knew who was like, “Yeah you love British culture; you know British history.” Why was I interested in that? Because of Harry Potter and this thing that it kicked into gear for me. It felt like coming into a place that you kind of already knew.

Parinita: But also what you know is so limited as well, right?

Rita: Exactly! It’s so blinded by –

Parinita: And you don’t learn to identify this when you are not in that context yourself.

Rita: Exactly.

Parinita: When I was in India, I had this idea of the UK and the US – and a large part of Indians do as well – that you know the West! It’s wealthy and they don’t have problems. Because in terms of actual comparison, the kind of poverty Indians face and the kind of poverty the UK faces just structurally, socially, everything is very different. So it would be like comparing apples and oranges really.

Rita: Well you’re talking about poverty, it’s that thing about we were presented with the Weasleys as a poor family.

Parinita: I know!

Rita: But they’re clearly not how I understood poor in the Philippines.  I mean the Weasleys are kind of like landed gentry?

Parinita: [laughs]

Rita: I guess? [laughs] I mean maybe not to that extent but the fact that Bill could inherit a house from his great-grandmother, that they had heirlooms.  [laughs]

Parinita: I grew up without a lot of money. The kind of problems that me and my mum faced, the Weasleys would never have faced. But I was like, oh this is how poor people are in the UK, I guess. [laughs] This is their idea of poverty. And it was only when I moved to the UK, and was engaging with the discourse here and with the kinds of problems that exist here which aren’t transferred to India at all – the news and things don’t communicate any of this to India. I guess why would they? But also then that leads to a very narrow idea of the UK and also a narrow idea of India.

Rita: Exactly.

Parinita: Which I could only disrupt once I was away from that context and in this context.

Rita: Once you absorb the actual context where that culture comes from, yeah, exactly right. For instance when you come here into the UK, you learn that a lot of poor families use food banks.

Parinita: Yeah.

Rita: The Weasleys never had a problem with hunger. I mean it was Molly’s stamp of pride that she always fed her family and she fed poor Harry. There are many living a much poorer life than the Weasleys.

Parinita: Yeah and she didn’t have to worry about what kind of food she was going to be feeding them. Maybe she did like in the background; maybe she was trying to reach into the back of the pantry or something, I don’t know.

Rita: Yeah because they always seemed to have fresh food. They never seemed to eat something that was canned or frozen. And then when you think about clothing and poverty, the Weasleys had new jumpers every year. They had new jumpers. And then when you think about poverty and space, the moment that they needed more space, they could just extend the house through magic.

Parinita: Yeah and each of them had their rooms.

Rita: Exactly!

Parinita: This was me, reading the book, living in this tiny one-bedroom Mumbai flat where me and my mum slept in the same bed.

Rita: Yeah.

Parinita: And I was like oh okay, I guess this is how poor people in Britain live. Because even in the US, when media talks about a person who’s poor in the US or a character who’s poor, they still always have their own rooms. Which to me was unimaginable!

Rita: Forget them, even Harry had his own room. It was a cupboard; but it was a room!

Parinita: But then he moved to a bigger room. I mean he had lots of abuse issues and trauma in that house.

Rita: Yeah Harry had a lot of trauma.

Parinita: But yes, he had his own space! Sometimes he was trapped in it. But it was his. [laughs]

Rita: It was his space. And yeah that’s the kind of thing that you realise when you come here. One of the things that I never really absorbed until I came to the UK, was regional identities. And the fact that if I’m not mistaken, Harry is a Londoner.

Parinita: Oh! That’s true. He is. Yeah, I don’t know where Godric’s Hollow is but yeah for sure he is.

Rita: Yeah. Harry grew up in London. So there are no markers of which part of London he was from. Because that is something that definitely comes into play. When you’re a Londoner, you very much attach yourself to certain parts of London. That’s part of your identity. Regionally, we don’t know who belongs where unless they have an accent that is written out. Like say Seamus Finnigan. Although even Seamus, I’m not sure if he was like Northern Irish or if he was Republic of Ireland.

Parinita: Hagrid as well. We’ve spoken about this before how he was othered for many diff erent reasons. And there’s also a choice between whose identity is reflected and whose isn’t.

Rita: Exactly yeah.

Parinita: I’ve been rereading the books recently and Minerva McGonagall – Professor McGonagall, I didn’t realise she was Scottish until I moved to Scotland and realised what the Scottish tropes are. She wears a lot of tartan.

Rita: [laughs]

Parinita: Has a lot of tartan bags, has a thistle on her hat. And I’m like oh okay, I understand now.

Rita: But see that’s the annoying thing. You’re representing Scotland as just this woman covered in tartan.

Parinita: But also in a way that I wouldn’t have – I didn’t pick up on when I was in India. When I was in India, I didn’t know about the UK politics as well. How Scotland is fighting for independence and how Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland have their own issues and Wales has its own issues. I didn’t know all of this until I came here. And what you were saying about regional identity, that is also so superficial or non-existent in the books.

Rita: So true. Now people accept that Cho Chang is Scottish. The only reason why we think that is because a Scottish actress portrayed her in the films. Other than that, Cho Chang is a blank slate. Other than her name and her accent in the film adaptation, Cho Chang is a blank slate of a character. We don’t know any context to her whatsoever.

Parinita: This was something that Jack brought up. He doesn’t read Harry Potter. But somebody he follows on Twitter spoke about this. So this was what written in the 1990s?

Rita: Yeah.

Parinita: And I think this was more of a function of the films with Seamus than in the books where I think he set one or two fires accidentally. But in the movies, they just went with it. Like he was the firestarter.

Rita: The firestarter. [laughs]

Gif from the Harry Potter movies of Seamus Finnigan looking into a cauldron which blows up in his face

Parinita: Yeah. And then that person on Twitter was like, this was not very long after the IRA bombings.

Rita: Oh my god.

Parinita: And people dying.

Rita: That’s true!

Parinita: Yeah! [laughs]

Rita: Oh my god I didn’t even think about that, the implications of making your only Irish character a fire guy.

Parinita: Yeah. [laughs] Which again, I haven’t been keeping that much of an eye on it when I’ve been reading the books. I don’t think it was that big a thing in the books themselves than in the movies. But of course, a lot more people watched the movies than read the books. I think there are a lot of people who only watched the movies and didn’t read the books. So their idea of Seamus must have been this Irish person [laughs] who loves fires a bit too much.

Rita: But even when you think about racial identity – race and ethnicity in Harry Potter – you are not a person of colour unless it’s mentioned explicitly that you’re a person of colour. And the people that were explicitly mentioned as people of colour were very few and far in between. So as fans, we had to imagine a more diverse world than what J. K. Rowling put forward. And I think that’s why there’s this idea that Harry Potter is a diverse world. It’s not because of what she did. It’s because of what fans created after her.

Parinita: When I was reading the books, honestly, I didn’t even have the ability to imagine it to be more diverse.

Rita: So true!

Parinita: I’m still unlearning this but at that time, my mindset was completely colonised. I was like, oh of course the UK only has white people. Oh and there are one or two Indians

Rita: [laughs]

Parinita: And just a vaguely East Asian sounding person. And there are a handful of black people because they’re mentioned as black. And I was like, okay yeah this must be how it is in the UK. I didn’t really question it. I didn’t really think about it. I never identified with Parvati or Padma Patil because they were not really the centre of anything. There are fans who were thinking at a much higher level than me because they were inserting Parvati and Padma into stories or into art and things. And they’re doing that now as well; centering them even though the narrative didn’t. But I had no ability to do that. Then I moved to the UK and I looked around. Scotland is not the most diverse part of the UK, but even Glasgow is much more diverse than what you would find by reading just Harry Potter.

Fan art of Parvati and Padma Patil dressed in saris which match their respective Gryffindor and Ravenclaw Hogwarts house colours

Patil twins by monsieurartiste

Rita: Yeah. And even thinking about Padma and Parvati and Cho Chang. These women of colour that you put into your story, all of them are kind of presented in slightly negative ways in one part or the other. Was it Padma or Parvati who was Ron’s date?

Parinita: Padma, yeah.

Rita: Who was seen as incredibly disappointed that he didn’t want to dance and was just ugh very frustrated with him. And then you had Cho Chang who for an entire book was just crying. I mean reasonably so because her boyfriend had just died. But I always think of her as this moody person.

Parinita: Yeah. I just finished reading Order of the Phoenix a week ago and I would think that Harry who was going through his own depression and trauma would have understood or at least sympathised with her. I know it’s explained to be in a very gendered way like Hermione understands the feelings and Harry and Ron are clueless. But you still have a sense of shared trauma. Cedric died and you both are getting over that. And he is still so quick to dismiss her feelings and to dismiss anything. Of course she’s crying all the time! Why aren’t you crying all the time!? Well you’re yelling all the time; I guess that’s your manifestation.

Rita: Well that’s the thing. Now that I’m thinking about it, I don’t know how many women of colour are dismissed in the text? Or treated dismissively in the text? It’s just a minefield. When you start critiquing these literatures that you grew up loving, you just … I don’t know either it really shatters you and depresses you for a while. [laughs]

Parinita: Yeah.

Rita: Or you – no, it’s not an or; what follows is you start looking at things with a more critical eye in the future. It’s not literature fandom, but I was very much a part of the fandom of Bon Appetit Test Kitchen on YouTube. And they went through a reckoning for race and equality because it came out that their producers, their creators of colour were not paid for their appearances or not paid at the same rate. And then after that, I didn’t know why at the time, but I just wasn’t excited to cook anymore. I just felt so like ugh anything will do. And then I only connected it much later when I realised oh yeah because the entire thing about it that made you happy was just shattered into a million little pieces. So of course it’s going to affect you in a very personal way. Because that’s something about fandom; it’s not just discourse, it’s not just objective. It’s interesting because I know someone who is actually studying Harry Potter fandom from a religious perspective, from the perspective of charisma. Anne Taylor shoutout by the way, her research. [laughs] So it makes you think how these things connect to us in such a personal way and in such a formative time of our lives that it’s no surprise that both of us came into really critical careers in our lives. [laughs]

Parinita: Oh, for sure.

Rita: Because we over-analysed Harry Potter to a T!

Parinita: Oh I wouldn’t have been doing a PhD if I didn’t love Harry Potter. Which is why I decided to launch this podcast and start this thing in January. And then of course there was the whole transphobia that began in December and just then carried on from June. Like you’re saying, it’s just made me so … not reluctant to engage; I still love the Harry Potter books because it was such a huge part of me, and it is still a huge part of me. And I can’t untie my sense of self from the books. But I’m now reading it with so much more of a critical lens because I am able to; something I wasn’t able to do even a like a couple of years ago. Before my master’s, I didn’t have the tools to be able to articulate even though fandom itself was doing these things. But it was still a slow journey for me. But in terms of J. K. Rowling, it’s been so depressing but it was very easy for me to cut her from Harry Potter. For me, I can divorce the two. I’m trying to follow the lead of a few of the fan podcasts that I listen to who are talking about how they’re no longer going to financially support her. But then you made a very good point when we were talking about this that even though there’s no financial capital, there is still social and cultural capital that fans help J. K. Rowling accrue which then transforms into financial capital.

Rita: Yeah, exactly. Because by keeping her in the zeitgeist, in the topic of discussion, you are giving air to her property. It was easier to do this before, to divorce an author from their work before because we didn’t consume authors the way that we do today. Like right now, you can say that for instance … name a problematic author of the past.

Parinita: Lovecraft?

Rita: Let’s say Lovecraft. Lovecraft had a platform, yes. Could write things that the fans would consume, yes. But not at the same rate that people consume social media. And it’s also not at the same access of people who are so young. Because even though there are age restrictions on social media, it doesn’t prevent children and young people from still consuming that media.

Parinita: Yeah, because all you have to do is click a tick box saying that yes, I’m over 18.

Rita: Exactly! You just have to lie. And people do that all the time. So they consume her media. And because we were talking about how painful it was for us, how formative it was for us, but we are removed from that formative era in our lives. Whereas a lot of children who are engaging in that still are in that era. So her beliefs would influence their beliefs.

Parinita: Yeah.

Rita: Because we remember what it’s like to idolise someone. And that’s the thing that when we love media now, we idolise creators. People don’t just love Game of Thrones, they love George R. R. Martin. Or people didn’t just love Doctor Who, they loved Steven Moffat. Hmm arguably so. [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs]

Rita: It’s a very, very split camp. [laughs] But yeah, in today’s realm of cultural production, we are so connected to the people who create them. And it’s so hard to say I’ll still consume Harry Potter. Because for instance, I’ve made the decision to not support Harry Potter anymore and I think this will be my last public discussion on Harry Potter. Or public like with a platform like this. I’ve decided to disengage from that because when I read Harry Potter now, I do see the gaps in her representations. I see the fact that she doesn’t see people of colour. I see the fact that she has a very skewed idea of what poverty is or what Asian people are, for instance. And it’s hard to say that the media that you love is something that you can still love despite all that. At least for me. It’s really difficult. And who knows? Maybe in the future once … like in the very distant future – not ill-wishing on anything! But once maybe in the future, not in our generation but in the generations after us, when she is much like other authors who have gone and passed, maybe there can be a kind of contextualised consumption of Harry Potter. But today it’s really difficult to do that.

Parinita: Yeah. I’m totally with you. For me, like I said, I’ve reacted to it differently with just as much despondency but not – not even unwilling, unable to let go of Harry Potter, for a lot of reasons. But what you’re saying, I completely am with you there. She’s very directly attacked trans people and trans fans and they are letting go of it but others as well with more privilege; like cis people with more privilege and who are not directly impacted by that but are allies are also letting go of Harry Potter, like you are.  And I completely am with you on that. But for me, because I think fandom – and Harry Potter has always gone side by side with fandom for me, even though I started reading the books when I was ten, and started engaging with the fandom when I was thirteen, so there were a few years there when I was all by my lonesome. But otherwise, I’ve grown up with Harry Potter fandom and on Harry Potter fan platforms. The kind of thinking that I have now, and I’m still growing with fan podcasts like Harry Potter and the Sacred Text, Witch, Please, The Gayly Prophet, who are all undergoing this reckoning of how do you continue to engage with a text when the author’s politics are completely separate and something you abhor? And it’s something I don’t think there’s an easy answer for. And I think it’s very individual as well. I know some podcasts like Flourish on Fansplaining, they’ve said that they can no longer, because it’s tainted completely. It’s too toxic so they can’t engage with it at all. Whereas I think other fan podcasts like the three that I mentioned are still continuing with Harry Potter talking about it but distancing themselves from J. K. Rowling. They are saying that for us it’s about loving the text and not the author. And they try and raise money for trans charities and they try and create a safer space for queer fans and trans fans and nonbinary fans.

Rita: Yeah.

Parinita: But you’re completely right that even if it’s not contributing financially, it is contributing socially and culturally as well. But for me, I’ve also learned so much through these discussions themselves and all these critiques of J. K. Rowling because I didn’t have this idea of transphobia – just all the stuff that she’s saying and all the context that it comes with. Because someone who reads her tweets without any background knowledge or context is not going to really understand how it’s transphobic or why it’s transphobic. And there have been other people much better suited than me who’ve explained and decoded the language and why it’s transphobic and what it emerges from. And for me, it’s been so good to see fans who’ve divorced themselves … I guess they’re more progressive than the author herself is. So even in terms of reading themselves into the text, what you were saying earlier, they’ve made the world more progressive. It’s almost like fandom canon and actual canon are almost separate – not really, but almost.

Rita: Yeah.

Parinita: That there’s room for a more progressive space which in turn has influenced how I see and how I write stories and how I analyse other texts. Because I’m thinking about these things; these conversations they’re so much at the forefront of my mind now that I apply that lens to all the media that I consume. Which for me is too valuable to give up.

Rita: Yeah. And I think to myself as well like one of the questions that we raised in some of the conversations that we had before was can you actually reclaim a fandom from an author? Again, like you said, there’s no easy answer for that. Because it’s easier to answer these things once you have hindsight.

Parinita: Exactly.

Rita: But as we live through the experience, all of the things we do will basically just be the discourse for later on.

Parinita: Yeah. I know. It’ll be a PhD project for a future scholar.

Rita: [laughs] So true!

Parinita: For a future fan.

Rita: Oh my god and you’ll be supervising them. [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs] Oh my god. I’m trying to tear academia down from the inside. I can’t imagine myself – well maybe if I supervise them to make a TikTok thesis or something.

Rita: [laughs]

Parinita: Though not in India because our government has banned TikTok.

Rita: Oh our government is in conversations with Facebook.

Parinita: Oh! Really?

Rita: I’m not sure what’s happening on that front. But there was a direct message from the President to Facebook. So I still have to follow that. How do we process all these things? How do we process the toxic author? How do we move forward? And the progressive work that we’re doing to move forward from this while still engaging with the fandom. I think that’s one of the saddest parts of this entire discourse, the emotional labour that fans have to go through because of the mistakes that J. K. Rowling made. Even before this, when fans were restorying and adding diverse identities into fan texts and contributing to that collective understanding of what the Harry Potter world is. Because we couldn’t see ourselves so we wrote ourselves in. It was the same with the LGBT communities. It’s the same with ableism and disability. Because we don’t see ourselves in this text, we take on the emotional labour of having to add them in. Knowing that the addition is from us and not from her.

Parinita: Yeah.

Rita: And then now with the discussion on transphobia, we are having to take on so much emotional labour to process what’s happened and to decide how we want to interact with the fandom in the future. And again that’s emotional labour that was forced upon us by this problematic fandom. And that’s the other I think reason why I decided to not engage with it anymore because I’m just tired. [laughs]

Parinita: I mean honestly with the timing of it as well. You said this in December and then you were silent for several months about it, responded to nothing to do with it. And then right in the middle of a pandemic, right in the middle of the Black Lives Matter protests in the US and the UK, right in the middle of so many different things like Brexit, that’s when you decide to attack an already marginalised group using your platform and your privilege and all the status that you have to target this vulnerable group of people. Honestly the fans have had so much of a better understanding of the stuff that you’ve written.

Rita: Yeah.

Parinita: Fans have read so much more progressive messages into the books than apparently you meant? Because apparently you didn’t mean that everybody should be equal. Which if you read the books only wizards and witches are equal anyway. Nobody else is equal.

Rita: Oh my god. One of my favourite things that fans have contributed to the text was this Pride poster. I’m sure you know which one I mean. The one that says, “What Harry Potter taught me is that no one should live in a closet!” [laughs]

Parinita: Yeah. [laughs]

Image of a person wearing a T-shirt. The text on the T-shirt says: If Harry Potter taught us anything, it's that no one should live in a closet.

A fan text included in my master’s dissertation which looked at two Facebook fan pages

Rita: The fact that she doesn’t see the connection of how much the LGBT community loved Harry Potter, how much certain members of the LGBT community loved Harry Potter. And to break them down, to break their hearts with such language and such rhetoric, is just ugh it hurts!

Parinita: And also what she’s inspired. It’s not just her. Because of the platform and the privilege and the role that she has in mainstream culture, she has inspired so many – not a lot of people that I’ve encountered, but I know there is a world beyond my echo chamber. So these horrible people are citing her to further erode rights that trans people and LGBTQIA people have so painstakingly gotten. As if that’s what we need in 2020! We have fascism everywhere and then there’s this.

Rita: [sighs] This reminds me of my favourite response to J. K. Rowling’s transphobia. There’s this YouTube reviewer named Dominic Noble who has a Harry Potter persona – that reviews Harry Potter content. And that persona’s name is Terrence. Terrence is a half-blood in the context of this. So at the very end of his response video saying that he won’t engage in the Harry Potter fandom anymore, won’t make any more video, he brings on Terrence who gets a letter from his dad saying, “How are you Terrence? How are you doing? Your mum and I have always told you that you were a half-blood. But we never told you what that meant.” And he pulls out [laughs] this Percy Jackson t-shirt.

Parinita: [laughs]

Image of an orange t-shirt with the words "Camp Half-Blood" and a pegasus on it

Image courtesy Wiki

Rita: And he just has this expression, “Oh my gods?” [laughs] That resonated with me so much because it’s saying that yes, you can love something and let it go. But there are other things that you can obsess about that have less toxic creators. Don’t get me wrong. Percy Jackson has its own problems especially with its representation of disability. But at least its author is not – or at least as far as I know, because god the year of our lord 2020 has brought a lot of surprises on us.

Parinita: [laughs]

Rita: So you never know who’s a secret racist or whatever. [laughs] But yeah you can move on. There are still other texts to enjoy, Harry Potter was not the only thing that we loved. And if we’re disengaging with something, we can transfer all of that love that we had for Harry Potter into something else. And right now, I don’t know how appropriate it is because again this process of decolonisation is lifelong.

Parinita: It is.

Rita: And it goes across all things you consume, not just Harry Potter. So one of the things that my sister and I really, really loved growing up – which is really strange given what the text is – was Frank Herbert’s Dune. Massive fans of it. It was really strange for two eleven- to thirteen-year-olds consuming this massive piece of philosophical sci-fi. Loved it! And now the film is coming out. Well it’s been postponed, which was very sad. But I’m like, oh this is something that I can just redirect my love. Where before it was divided, now I can just redirect all of the things I loved to this and be excited for the release of this. Again, Dune is not without its own problems especially the adaptation does not feature Middle-Eastern or North African characters when the book borrowed so heavily from those cultures. But it’s good because I guess now I’m engaging with these texts by contextualising them, acknowledging their faults, and not having that really blind adulation that I used to have for Harry Potter.

Parinita: Yeah.

Rita: And I don’t know. Is it a sign of personal growth? Or is it just us protecting our broken hearts from being broken again? [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs] I think it’s both. We cannot have good things without some toxic everything.

Rita: And I can’t remember who was the creator where I realised that, oh they have problematic views. And I just told my sister one day, “The thing that 2020 has just taught us is never have heroes.”

Parinita: [laughs]

Rita: “Never have heroes! They will all disappoint you!” [laughs]

Parinita: That’s a very chipper note to end this podcast on. But it is 2020 so that’s as cheerful as you’re going to get. [laughs]

Rita: Yeah.

Parinita: Thank you so much Rita for being a part of this project and for this conversation. I know we’ve approached it in different ways and we have different experiences and different reactions as well to Harry Potter and J. K. Rowling. But it’s been so valuable just talking about it as well. And articulating my ideas by talking to you about it.

Rita: I know. It’s great. Especially when you’re decolonising yourself. One of the things we didn’t get to talk about but would have been interesting to talk about as well is we are two people from heavily colonised countries engaging in British texts. [laughs]

Parinita: Yeah. So we need to do another episode.

Rita: Oh my god.

Parinita: Just to talk about that because that’s a minefield.

Rita: Oh my god like Harry Potter and Empire is a whole other discussion I could definitely have.

Parinita: Our next episode title has been set. [laughs]

Rita: [laughs]

Parinita: But really thank you again for the time and the conversation. I really appreciate it.

Rita: No problem. I really enjoyed this. Thank you so much! And even though I disengaged with Harry Potter, I’m happy to talk with you about that disengagement.

Parinita: [laughs]

[Outro music]

You’ve been listening to our episode on encounters with diverse cultures in Western media and fandom. Thank you so much Rita for sharing your enthusiasms and frustrations. Our conversation has helped me see so many familiar things anew and I hope this process of decolonisation is a lifelong one.

[Outro music]

I’d love to hear from you and talk to you – so any feedback, comments or critiques are very welcome! Get in touch with me on social media, leave a comment on my blog, or email me at edps@leeds.ac.uk. If you’d like to follow the podcast or the PhD project, visit my website marginallyfannish.org. Here you’ll find the podcast episodes, transcripts, episode resources and links, and my research blog. You can also receive updates on Facebook or Instagram at Marginally Fannish or on Twitter where I’m @MarginalFannish. I share episode resources on social media so you can find a bunch of excellent fan podcasts and essays to look up. If you enjoyed this podcast, please share it with anyone you think will enjoy it too.

Thanks for listening! Tune in again next time for all things fannish and intersectional!

Episode 8 Whose Stories Are Being Told: Centering Racial Diversity in Mainstream Hollywood Movies

Episode Resources:

1) Movie – Green Book 

2) Movie – Crazy Rich Asians 

3) Movie – Last Christmas 

4)  Essay – Racism through the BAME protagonists in Ichiro and The Hate U Give

5) Fan podcast – Woke Doctor Who Crazy Rich Asians 

6) Fan podcast – Black Girl Nerds  Geek Misogyny, No Totally, and Con Coverage (listen from 1 hour 06ish minutes to 1 hour 34ish minutes)

7) Fan podcast – Black Girl Nerds Asians in Media 

8) Fan podcast – Imaginary Worlds Ghost In The Shell

9) Fan podcast – Imaginary Worlds Growing Up Avatar American 

10) Essay – In Immigrating from Japan, I Lost Language, Home, and Pokémon 

Episode Transcript:

This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity. If you would prefer the original, unedited version, please let me know!

[Intro music]

Welcome to Marginally Fannish, a show where we aim an intersectional lens at some of our favourite media and their fandoms.

[Intro music]

My name is Parinita Shetty and you’re listening to the eighth episode of Marginally Fannish. In this episode, H and I talk about the different representations of race in three mainstream Hollywood movies. As students from India and Japan in the United Kingdom, we discuss the cultural similarities and differences that we’ve noticed. We also talk about suddenly becoming a minority in a new country and how that impacts our ideas about racial diversity.

Mainstream media can perpetuate internalised racism. Three recent movies – Green Book, Crazy Rich Asians, and Last Christmas – showcase the slow but steady strides Hollywood is taking by featuring different kinds of diversity and inclusion. Diverse representations in mainstream films is especially important since they attract and influence such huge audiences. A lack of diverse stories promotes the perception of monolithic experiences of marginalised groups which in turn creates stereotypes about these cultures. Just because you look the same doesn’t mean you share the same experiences.

Stories written by cultural insiders can challenge these narrow perceptions. They overturn stereotypes, offer more authentic representations, explore nuances and complexities within the culture, and refuse to exoticise their own culture by normalising different contexts, foods, and languages. Diverse creators rewrite the script of whose stories are centered. Normalising the food, languages, and lives of non-dominant cultures can go a long way in fixing the imbalance and addressing the feelings of inferiority.

Find our conversations about all this and more in today’s episode.

Happy listening!

[Intro music]

Parinita: Today I’m so happy to welcome H on the podcast. H is an undergraduate student from Japan. He did a study abroad year at the University of Leeds which is where I’m also a PhD researcher. He was there last year where he started to develop an interest in the interpretation of media. And his favourite British drama series so far is Black Mirror, a show that I also love even though it gives me a lot of nightmares about the future of technology. I met H at a children’s literature module that one of my PhD supervisors was running at the University of Leeds last year where I was also helping out. And throughout the semester, I loved talking to H about children’s books and also his opinions on race and representation in children’s literature. So I thought he’d be the perfect guest for the podcast and I’m so glad he agreed to participate. So for this episode, we’re going to be talking about representation in media, specifically looking at three movies – that’s Green Book, Crazy Rich Asians, and Last Christmas. H also wrote an essay for the course which explored racism in the young adult novel The Hate U Give by Angie Thomas and the graphic novel Ichiro by Ryan Inzana. I got to read the essay and I really enjoyed it; so I suggested including it in our conversation today because it covers a lot of the themes that we’re both really interested in. So to begin with H, do you want to tell us how you got interested in the topic of race and representation?

H: Yes. Thank you Pari. So the reason why I got interested in race and ethnicity issues was because I actually faced racism in the UK. So the experience in the UK as an exchange student, it definitely made me interested in that subject.

Parinita: I know you’ve told me this before but even hearing you say this again just makes me feel so both angry and sad at the same time.

H: Hmm.

Parinita: I’ve been in the UK a little longer than you have because I came here to do my master’s as well. And I’ve been lucky that I’ve not really faced any racism in the way that you have. And I think that it’s gotten a little worse now in the UK, especially for East Asian people, because of the whole Coronavirus pandemic. It’s something that we’ve spoken about on previous podcast episodes. They’re the target of a lot of racism within certain corners of the UK. And of course brown people, South Asian people, have a whole other history of racism in the UK. But I’ve been lucky. And like you, I also come from a country where I’ve been the dominant race. In India and Japan, we’re both very much a part of the dominant culture. I had this fixed idea of racism when I lived in India. And it was something that happened in other countries like in the US and the UK. I didn’t think of racism within an Indian context really because everybody is the same race.

H: Yes.

Parinita: But obviously in India, too, we have issues where light-skinned Indians are preferred over dark-skinned Indians. I don’t know if that’s an issue in Japan at all, but India definitely has that. And our media also pushes this image because light and fair skin is considered to be more beautiful.

H: Hmm.

Parinita: So you know there are these fairness creams and things that have a huge market in India as well as in some countries in Africa. And we have different ethnic groups in India because it’s such a diverse country. And depending on which part of the country you’re in, there are definitely differences in terms of race and the colour of your skin, and the religion, and the language that you speak, the looks. So in your essay – when you were looking at Ichiro especially, which has a Japanese kid going from the US back to Japan and how he has trouble fitting in – I could really relate to that scene. It’s very similar to what happens in India. During the module, we spoke a little bit about the We Need Diverse Books campaign which started in the US; I think it started online. It spoke about how children’s books, especially in the West, have very white characters; most of the characters in the books are white and straight and a very specific idea of a person. And that made me start thinking about it in India as well. Even in India, there’s only a very certain group of people who are always there in the media. When I moved to the master’s, my class was really diverse. It was much more diverse than I think the children’s literature module that we were in – although even that was pretty diverse. But I think everybody was from the UK?

H: Yeah, I think so.

Parinita: Whereas my master’s class was very diverse. It had people from the UK as well as different parts of the world. But my friends there in Scotland – and Scotland is not as diverse as Leeds; Glasgow isn’t as diverse as Leeds.

H: Um hmm.

Parinita: And England is much more diverse anyway. But I was very much the minority in most places. That was the first time I’d had that experience that I was the only brown person in the room. My friends were very welcoming and inclusive, but I didn’t have the same cultural context that I could share with them. I can’t speak in Hindi or Marathi – any of the Indian languages that I know. I can’t talk to them about Bollywood movies – the movies that I watch back home in India. Or the food and things. So that was different. That’s when I think I really realised that I’m a person who is of a different race.

H: Hmm.

Parinita: So before we start discussing the movies that we watched, you wanted to talk about another module that you took at the University of Leeds which looked at film studies and which influenced some of your ideas of media interpretation.

H: So I took film studies in semester two in Leeds. We watched some movies – French, Italian, Japanese – very different movies from different countries. Specifically, one week we watched Terminator, Terminator 2.

Parinita: Yeah.

H: Then from the reading, I learned that the idea that white men cannot be regarded as victim –

Parinita: Hmm.

H: It caused some filmmakers to make films which focused on white male protagonists. So the point is, I didn’t know there was this kind of idea behind the movie. ’Cause you know Terminator is very famous and popular all over the world.

Parinita: Yeah.

H: So I thought this was quite interesting to know that fact.

Parinita: Absolutely.

H: But also I thought it was quite dangerous because a huge amount of people would see this movie and would have seen this movie. But as a fact this movie has this kind of implicit meaning behind it.

Parinita: Yeah absolutely. And for me that’s why I think media representations are so important. And it’s something that I keep talking about on this podcast.

H: Hmm.

Parinita: So if people are listening to it regularly, they’ll be tired of hearing me say that. But it does, like you said right, the way that media represents something can be dangerous. It can also be powerful in a positive way, but it can also be dangerous.

H: Yeah.

Parinita: Like the way that you talk about a certain group of people.

H: Yeah.

Parinita: So currently in the US, for example, the government and the President are talking about the Coronavirus and a lot of them are still calling it the China virus.

H: Yeah. [laughs]

Parinita: You know. And that’s –

H: I was quite surprised when President Trump said that the Chinese virus on Twitter or something.

Parinita: Exactly! And I think some of the people in his cabinet advised him not to.

H: [laughs]

Parinita: But he still insisted on calling it that. And it has a very real impact on not only the Chinese people living in the US but also anybody who’s East Asian.

H: Hmm.

Parinita: Like you said about the racist attack – the verbal racist attack that you’d had in Leeds. And that was because someone mistook you for a Chinese person, right?

H: Hmm.

Parinita: The thing that they said – the really terribly racist thing that they said – was towards a Chinese person. What you say in media, not just news media but even entertainment media, is so important. Because it’s influencing so many people’s perceptions about people they wouldn’t meet in real life. Or maybe even people that they do meet in real life. And India has this huge problem as well. Because currently it’s very anti-Muslim. The whole thing about the virus and the pandemic – Muslims are being targeted in India, which is also really dangerous. But coming back to the movies that we watched, these movies were your suggestions. I hadn’t watched any of them because I’m not really super caught up with movie news anyway. I read books and I watch TV shows. And movies I watch sometimes. But I had heard about Crazy Rich Asians a lot because it was such a mainstream hit, I think. Everyone was talking about it. And I watched all three movies yesterday on the same day. Which for someone like me, who really struggles with binge-watching anything, was a lot. [laughs] But I loved the movies so much. They were so fun to watch. And I really loved them for different reasons as well. I loved that there were such different kinds of diversity and inclusion in the three movies. With the Green Book, uh Green Book, it was tackling prejudice much more directly.

H: Yes.

Movie poster of Green Book

Image courtesy IMDB

Parinita: Because racism was the crux of the movie and it was drawing attention to that. Whereas in Crazy Rich Asians, it was an all-diverse cast. I don’t think there were white people at all in the movie. It was all Asian. Different Asian backgrounds, but all Asian. And then in Last Christmas, which was a different kind of diversity, where there was a lot of different diverse groups that were represented.

H: Yes.

Movie poster of Crazy Rich Asians

Image courtesy IMDB

Parinita: But it was done in a way that didn’t call attention to that diversity. It was just a regular part of the movie. It was normalising it to such an extent that you don’t need to draw attention to it. So what did you think of the movies? I’m assuming you’re a fan of them. But you said that you chose them for specific reasons as well.

Movie poster of Last Christmas

Image courtesy IMDB

H: Yeah. So the three movies were all made very recently. I think 2018 and 19.

Parinita: Right.

H: So I think these movies represent and reflect today’s society very realistically I thought.

Parinita: Yeah.

H: So that’s one reason. And also these were made by … I think Universal Pictures and Warner Brothers. So this a very big company, I think.

Parinita: Yeah, really mainstream.

H: Yeah. So that means, I think, a very large amount of people would watch them.

Parinita: Yeah absolutely.

H: So yeah, I think they have a very strong impact on people’s perspectives.

Parinita: Yeah, that’s such a good point. I hadn’t really considered that. That they are such mainstream productions. I thought about it with Crazy Rich Asians but I thought it became mainstream. Because one of the critiques is that at least in Hollywood, people don’t cast Asian actors because they think that the movies then wouldn’t sell as well.

H: Yeah.

Parinita: They wouldn’t be as marketable. But obviously Crazy Rich Asians – I think that’s why it was such a powerful movie – because it totally proved them wrong. And similar to Black Panther as well. In the Woke Doctor Who episode where they were talking about Crazy Rich Asians, there’s a Chinese-American host and there’s a black American host. And they were both talking about how the perception is that movies that don’t have a white cast member will not sell. So I think Crazy Rich Asians is a great exception to that rule. And I hope there’s more like that. But then in Last Christmas, it had some huge movie stars in it. And the Green Book as well – I keep calling it the Green Book, it’s just Green Book!

H: [laughs]

Parinita: But that one as well had a huge star cast. So I think, yeah you’re right, that that’s really important in drawing audiences to the cinema as well.

H: Yeah. Absolutely.

Parinita: So on the Black Girl Nerds podcast, Shaun Lau pointed out that the Asian perspective isn’t this monolith which means that all Asian experiences aren’t the same. Even in Japan, I’m sure, and certainly in India. All Indians and all Japanese people don’t have the same experience, right?

H: No, no.

Parinita: Depending on which part of the country – or even within your same house, for example. Depending on the age and things, you have different interests, you have different perspectives, different personalities. Whereas so far, I think these stereotypes that you have about Asians and Indians in the West are because the movies and TV shows and books have pushed these stereotypes.

H: Yes. So while I was in the UK, I noticed that especially East Asians – all East Asians including Chinese, Korean, Japanese – all of them were … not all times but mostly regarded as Chinese.

Parinita: Yeah.

H: You know I kind of understand that because I wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between British people or American or –

Parinita: Absolutely. Or German, yeah.

H: Yeah. So I understand that but um …

Parinita: No, it’s similar with me as well. South Asians, so say India or Pakistan or Bangladesh or Sri Lanka, we all look really similar.

H: Yeah.

Parinita: In fact, Pakistan, India and Sri Lanka uh not Sri Lanka – Bangladesh were all a part of the same country a few decades ago during colonisation. It was only post-Independence – which was about seventy years ago – that we were split into first two countries and then three countries. So I completely understand. But at the same time, it’s also really dangerous. And more than dangerous, it’s a bit insulting  that you don’t –

H: Hmm.

Parinita: You shouldn’t make assumptions if you’re not sure, just don’t make assumptions, right? Try to get to know the person first before assuming they are from wherever or just saying that, “Oh all East Asians are the same or all Indians or South Asians are the same”. We wouldn’t say all white people are the same, for example, right? That’s not something we would think about.

H: Yeah.

Parinita: So somebody else in another podcast, the Imaginary Worlds episode, said that many white people in the West don’t see the difference between Asian films and Asian-American films.

H: Hmm.

Parinita: So basically Asian films would be a film in Japan set in Japan with Japanese people. Or set in India with Indian people. I think that difference and that nuance is important because in India or in Japan, we’re not the minorities, right?

H: Yeah.

Parinita: In India, it’s full of Indians. In Japan, it’s full of Japanese. Whereas in the US, or even in the UK – Indians and Japanese people would be the minority. So the experiences here are very different to the experiences in a country where you are the majority. So the kind of film would be different. Which is why I really liked Crazy Rich Asians because it showed a little bit of both. It showed Rachel –

H: Hmm.

Parinita: Constance Wu’s character who is this Chinese-American who goes to Singapore. So she has this very American context. But she’s going to this country and this community which is very comfortable within its Chinese identity.

H: Hmm.

Parinita: But they always make fun of American culture. Her future mother-in-law or prospective mother-in-law, she always makes fun of the American-Chinese – just the American attitude in general. It was a really funny movie but I thought that was really interesting.

H: Hmm. So in Crazy Rich Asians, I think the main characters were Asian and Chinese-American. Rachel was Chinese-American and … I forgot his name.

Parinita: Nick, I think. Nick Young.

H: Yeah. He was … so is he also half-American, half-Chinese?

Parinita: I think he’s Chinese – he’s from Singapore. He’s grown up in Singapore but he moved to the US for university or something.

H: Hmm.

Parinita: I think that was a source of tension within the movie because they kept wanting him to move back home because he grew up in his grandmother’s house.

H: Aah.

Parinita: And I think at one point, his mother makes fun of him, “Don’t tell me you’ve gotten an American accent”. [laughs] Because that’s not something that can happen.

H: Yeah. So I think the point you made was very interesting. So I thought the fact that Crazy Rich Asians succeeded was quite um … I was feeling kind of sympathy

Parinita: Hmm.

H: Because you know in the American film-making industry, the movie in which Asian people take a huge part of the movie itself is quite rare, I think.

Parinita: Yeah.

H: So I was very kind of feeling sympathy. Is it – is that the word?

Parinita: Yeah. Absolutely.

H: But I haven’t thought about the difference between Asian-Americans and just Asian people.

Parinita: Yeah it’s not something that I thought of either. It was something that on the Imaginary Worlds podcast, the Asian-American guest, he said. Because he was like, “White people in the West, they think all our experiences are the same. That if you look Asian, that means you have the same experience.” Which is obviously, we know, not true. In the Woke Doctor Who episode, Eugenia, one of the hosts, she said that in Crazy Rich Asians, the creators of the movie fought to cast Constance Wu – the actress who plays Rachel – as an Asian – as a Chinese-American person, because the producers wanted to cast her as a white woman.

H: Hmm.

Parinita: Because they said that “oh how can it be that this Asian woman is going to Singapore and doesn’t fit in?” Obviously she would fit in because they thought, I’m sure, that oh if she looks the same then she’ll obviously have the same experiences. But that’s not true. And so they thought that the white person going to Singapore and not fitting in would be more realistic. And that totally overlooks the fact that – like even you and I. I don’t know about you but for me, after about like a year spent in Scotland, in the UK, when I went back to India, I saw the country differently. I saw myself differently. I had changed because of my experience living abroad. So somebody who’s grown up in the UK, even if their parents are from India, and they go back to India, it would be a huge culture shock. It would be so different going there, right?

H: Yeah. I also felt reverse culture shock.

Parinita: Yeah. And that’s even after both of us have been born and brought up in Japan and India respectively. But even spending a few months or a year abroad can have such a like impact on us, right?

H: Hmm.

Parinita: Yeah. But I guess I hope that there’s more room for such stories. Just because it makes it so interesting. In Crazy Rich Asians I thought Chinese culture and Indian culture have so many similarities. Because when I was watching that movie, I was like oh my god this is something that Indian mothers would do or Indian aunties would do. And the movie itself was so like a Bollywood movie without the singing and dancing. But there was music in the background. It was a fun movie to watch. And I loved Green Book as well. What did you think about it?

H: So when I finished watching the movie, I was very moved. I think I remember I was moved. But eventually I started to think that the ending – when the policeman stops them – the car which the two protagonists were in, that was the moving point.

Parinita: Hmm.

H: So the police officer says, “Happy Christmas” or something like that to them if I remember.

Parinita: Yeah, because they’d had an experience with a police officer earlier that didn’t go as well. With two white police officers. The racist police officers.

H: Yeah.

Parinita: And they were scared. And this is very true because it’s something we read in The Hate U Give as well, right? How people of colour in the US, black people or in this case … yeah Dr Stanley was black as well. That they’re so scared of the police because a lot of the police are racist and do shoot young unarmed black men. So that is very much a reality.

H: Yeah.

Parinita: But the second police officer wasn’t like that, just to place that in context.

H: Yeah. So even though that was the reality, I don’t know, but it seemed like the movie made that the last police officer as a very good person and … even though I think that is – that should be normal. You know what I mean?

Parinita: Hmm. Oh I do see what you mean. You think it was more for dramatic effect – like trying to tie up the ends neatly – rather than representing actual reality.

H: I just personally think, yeah.

Parinita: Yeah. I mean I understand. So I keep having this conversation with my boyfriend. He is very much against police officers generally because of all the history of brutality that they’ve had especially for people of not-white races and working-class people and things. Whereas I’m like, no I’m sure there are some police officers who are all right. And I think I’m more … obviously I’ve not had terrible experiences with police officers which is why I come from that place of privilege, I think, that I can give them the benefit of doubt. It’s something that I thought of as well but I thought, “Oh it’s nice that they showed this good police officer”. But yeah, you’re right. Especially in a movie that talks about racism in a very direct way, maybe we didn’t need to … but I guess because it was Christmas, they tried to put in a hopeful message.

H: Yeah. Green Book is of course a very brilliant movie. Even the black person protagonist was a host and the white guy was the driver and servant. And this structure, I haven’t seen in any movies – which has the same structure as this.

Parinita: Yeah.

H: So I appreciate this one. But still the movie was explicitly talking about and showing the racism against black persons.

Parinita: It was set in the 1960s in the southern United States which was – even now a lot of it is pretty racist. But at that time, it was really dangerous if you were black and moving around there like we saw in the movie. When you were saying that right now, it struck me that even though they say this in the beginning of the movie, that it’s based on a true story, I had completely forgotten that bit. Until the end of the movie when they show you the updates of the real-life Tony – the white driver and Dr Don Stanley, the black musician, the pianist. So what you said about this white driver and about this rich black person, it’s something that I made a note of – how even if you’re white, but if you’re poor, you can be marginalised in certain contexts. You’re not as privileged in certain contexts. Whereas even if you’re black and you’re rich, you can also be marginalised. In the South when they were travelling, Tony the driver was considered to be more respected and more worthy and more equal just because he was white. Whereas Don, because he was black, his money didn’t matter, his music skills didn’t matter. He was a black man and that’s why he was not considered to be equal to the white people.

H: Hmm.

Parinita: That’s why I liked all three movies that we watched for such different reasons. And they were such different kinds of movies. I don’t think that we can compare them for their story, but in terms of their representations of diversity. So I’m really glad you suggested these movies. When it comes to discussions of diversity or just media in general, I really like looking at whose stories are centered in terms of race and ethnicity or national origin or whatever –  whose stories are being told and whose stories are being marginalised or ignored. And these three movies, like you said, they’re new – out in 2018-2019. So I hope they’re showing a trend that we’re moving towards. Because in the Black Girl Nerds episode, the Asians in Media one, where they were talking about how otherwise movies with Asian characters are full of stereotypes. And they’ll usually center the story of the white person and not the Asian person.

H: Hmm.

Parinita: The Asian person is just a background character or just comic relief or just the best friend of the main white person. And is never in a role that is centered around them.

H: Hmm.

Parinita: And there also used to be a very limited kind of stories. Which is why again, especially Crazy Rich Asians and Last Christmas, I really liked because it wasn’t like oh these Asians are martial artists or it wasn’t about the immigrant experience that oh they’ve moved to the US and now they’re facing this difficult time. It was just a regular film. It wasn’t about their Asian experience.

H: Hmm. Yeah.

Parinita: And I think all three of them overturned stereotypes in very different ways. In Green Book I liked that the main character Dr Don Stanley – he is wealthy – and the white guy, Tony, he has all these stereotypes about him – about black people – that he keeps trying to place on him. Like the music and the food and everything.

H: Hmm.

Gif from Green Book. Tony throws an empty drinks container onto the highway. Dr Don looks back at it and makes the car go back to pick it up

Parinita: And Dr Don is like “uhhh what no I don’t like this. I’m sorry, what?” He’s this really sophisticated character. And later we find out that he’s gay as well. And he talks about the struggles of not being able to fit in to either black society or white society. It was a really interesting overturning of stereotypes. With Crazy Rich Asians as well, where Rachel is going to China and usually you make fun of Chinese culture or Asian culture or whatever. That’s the butt of jokes. Whereas here, they were making fun of American culture and were like, “Oh American-Chinese are not real Chinese” and things like that.

H: Hmm.

Parinita: Had you noticed the different kinds of diversity and representations in these movies? Or Western media in general? What struck out the most to you while watching these movies in terms of the race representations?

H: Ah so you – what do you mean by different um –

Parinita: So the way races like the Asians, for example, in the three movies, the different kinds – oh well not in the three movies, in Green Book, there were no Asians. But the different races, how they were represented in the three movies. So blackness and whiteness in Green Book, different Chinese and Asian experiences in Crazy Rich Asians. I know they were not all – I don’t know in the movie, if they were all Chinese. I know the actors come from all over – there are Malaysian actors and Australian actors as well.

H: Hmm. Yeah, so as you said, I think traditionally in Hollywood or the film industry, white actors and actresses have been dominant in those movies. In Last Christmas, there was an inter-racial couple.

Parinita: Yeah. There were a couple actually. There were two or three, I think.

H: Yeah. So I think I could see the intention of the filmmakers to use different types – different race of people.

Parinita: Yeah.

H: Together in the same community.

Parinita: Yeah because London is a super diverse city, right? It draws people from all different backgrounds.

H: Yeah.

Parinita: That’s something I really liked in Last Christmas as well. Especially that these inter-racial couples were so common. It wasn’t even a matter of discussion. Maybe in another movie, that would be cause of the discomfort or the drama or whatever.

H: Hmm.

Parinita: Whereas here, that didn’t matter; it’s fine, just having inter-racial couples. And also there was that one older inter-racial couple – the Chinese lady Santa who owns the Christmas shop.

H: Yeah.

Parinita: And I think he was German? I’m not sure. The older man. But they were making jokes of each other’s cultures but not in a way that was offensive. It was more like you’re making fun of yourself, kind of. I think there was also a queer relationship – Kate’s sister Marta and her girlfriend – she was black – and she [Marta] was also like a kid of an immigrant. So yeah, I thought that was a really good inclusion of representation.

H: Hmm.

Parinita: I didn’t know this but Eugenia from Woke Doctor Who mentioned this, that apparently there had been some critiques of Crazy Rich Asians that even though the movie is set in Singapore – and Singapore again, like London, is a super diverse country – because it draws people from different countries in Asia as well as Western countries. But in the movie itself, it was very much centered only on Chinese people. There were some Malay and Indian servants, I think. Like maids and drivers and things. And that was one of the critiques. And she [Eugenia] responded to it by saying that well, first of all they were super rich Chinese people. So it was another culture by itself because this is the life of the super wealthy.

H: Hmm.

Parinita: And so all the diversity was in the form of maids and guards and stuff which reflects the lives of these elite people. But also it made me think of how in movies like this, because they are so rare as you said, the expectations are that they have to be perfect. They have to tick all the boxes – like diversity and this and this and this. And it’s such an unfair burden on them. It would be better to make room for different kinds of diversity and stories so that there’ll be different stories; so one movie can tell its story and another can tell its story, rather than saying Crazy Rich Asians has to tick all these boxes. So again, like I said, I hope that this is a trend – so it’s not just that one movie has to fix all the ills and all the problems that exist in Hollywood or whatever. They can just go on and tell their story and just be fun and … yeah. It’s really unfair.

H: Hmm. And also I do not exactly know how many racial minority people work in the film industry or writing books or whatever media.

Parinita: Yeah.

H: People who create those books, movies, dramas, advertisements, or whatever should be from different identities.

Parinita: Yeah! Absolutely. I think that’s a really good point. Because I think that shows in the kind of stories then that are told, right? If you have a person from that different identity, they are going to be able to tell their story in a more realistic way than a stereotypical way.

H: Yeah.

Parinita: They won’t then be making fun of their own – or if they do make fun of their own culture, it will be in a way that is for other people of that culture. Like how Indians, we make fun of ourselves, but the audience for the joke is other Indians. It’s not white people. We’re making fun of each other within our community. And I think Crazy Rich Asians had a few examples of that where they were making fun of the culture but it was in an affectionate way. Because, like you said, I think the cast but even the creators – the writers and everybody – they were Asian. So they knew the culture that they were talking about. They were not presenting it in this exotic way. Like, “Ooh look this Far East exotic culture.” They were like no, this is just our lives. And it was also this really interesting blend of Western influence as well as Asian influences. Like the bachelorette party and the bachelor party and stuff. That’s a thing that happens in India as well now over the last ten-fifteen years, it’s become really common in big Indian cities at least. And that’s something that’s not Indian at all. It’s something that we’ve picked up from media – American media and British media. And that’s something that Crazy Rich Asians had as well which I thought was really familiar.

H: Hmm. Yeah. So Japan, as I said, is a very monocultural and racially homogenous country.

Parinita: Yeah.

H: So I consider the fact that all of the TV programmes, dramas, movies – the Japanese ones – are made by them. And almost all of the spectators are Japanese.

Parinita: Hmm.

H: So I think some stereotypical and biased images of other cultures might have been created by that media in Japan as well.

Parinita: Do you mean of different cultures within Japan or outside Japan?

H: That could be both. For example, Japan is also an island and a homogenous country.

Parinita: Um hmm.

H: And people are a little bit ignorant of other cultures. ’Cause we don’t know what other cultures are. So not many people know and could know about them.

Parinita: Hmm.

H: As a fact, in Japan, it has been realised that we should become more globalised. And Japan has noticed that diversity is important and knowing about other cultures is important. But the images, the media, and books are created only by one particular race of people.

Parinita: Yeah. And like you were saying in your essay about the anti-Korean racism, a little bit of which exists in Japan, right?

H: Yeah. So we have very complicated issues with … hmm basically, so this isn’t true for everyone … but there is a kind of ideology that Westerners and white people are superior.

Parinita: Um hmm.

H: But at the same time, a number of Japanese people think Japan is the greatest country.

Parinita: Yeah.

H: The right-wing people and some people regard Chinese or Korean people as inferior to themselves.

Parinita: It’s so interesting that as different as cultures are, it’s like we have the same problems everywhere. Because India is the same. And obviously like we both saw in the UK, the UK is the same where they consider white English people superior. India has the same problems that you’re saying about Japan. Even to that extent of where it considers white superior. White people in certain minds would be considered superior. Of course, we have the history of colonisation. So we were under the British Empire for a hundred and fifty years or something. And even now, a lot of the movies and things that we watch – obviously we have a lot of Indian film industries, so the media is within Hindi and different languages like Marathi, we have huge movie industries. But a lot of the English movies that we watch – the foreign movies – come from the US and the UK. So their representations influence us a lot. Even me, for example, it was only after I moved to the UK that I realised in terms of the political system, in terms of poverty and everything, I was like, “Oh the UK doesn’t have everything figured out.” When I was living in India, I was like, “Oh yeah the US and the UK are obviously …” uh but then of course they went and elected Trump. [laughs] So I was like, “Okay maybe the US doesn’t have it all figured out either.” So yeah. It’s very similar.

H: So I was thinking the UK and Japan are very similar in terms of you know both countries are islands and um …

Parinita: Hmm, yeah.

H: And I think the national character is also kind of the same.

Parinita: Hmm.

H: So it’s a bit hard to explain but we have –

Parinita: Is it based on history?

H: Hmm … I’m not really sure why that happened.

Parinita: Hmm.

H: But I noticed there are a lot of common things between Japanese and the British people living in the UK. But in terms of diversity, it’s completely the opposite. The UK is much more diverse and Japan is more homogenous.

Parinita: Hmm.

H: Did you say you realised that you became a minority when you went to Scotland for the first time?

Parinita: Yeah.

H: So that happened to me as well. When I went to the UK last July, that was my first time being a minority.

Parinita: Yeah.

H: And I noticed I was feeling like some people around me might be looking down on me.

Parinita: Um hmm.

H: As I said, I actually got discriminated against by a white British guy.

Parinita: Yeah.

H: But then I noticed why am I thinking like that way? So why am I feeling that I’m looked down on by other white people? And I thought media and what I watched and listened to in Japan for over eighteen or nineteen years might have created some kind of image and stereotype inside myself.

Parinita: Ah. That’s a really good point. You’re right. And also it has that same effect on the people from the dominant group as well, right? In the UK, you’re the minority here just like me. But for white people in the UK, they’re watching the same media as well. And maybe then that media is creating this sense of superiority amongst them. So it feeds into both the people who are the minority as well as the majority in really harmful ways.

H: Hmm.

Parinita: Ugh media it’s like … you know there are a lot of people who don’t think media is that important to talk about. But media is how a lot of people get their education about different cultures and different races and classes and genders and everything.

H: Hmm.

Parinita: So we can’t dismiss the point of media. Because another thing that really stood out to me during the movies – and also just in general – was the politics and the representations of food, especially Asian food and Indian food within Western media. Have you ever come across that?

H: Hmm … so there’s a clear description of Asian food in Crazy Rich Asians but I haven’t thought that deeply about representation of food in detail.

Parinita: Yeah. And that’s a totally fair point because in a homogenous culture I suppose that is not a thing that occurs to you because everyone eats the same – not same but similar kind of food?

H: Hmm.

Parinita: So one is not considered superior and another is not considered inferior. In the Woke Doctor Who episode, Eugenia who’s the Chinese-American host, was talking about watching Crazy Rich Asians; just seeing her food represented on the screen was such an emotional experience for her. You remember that dumpling making scene?

H: Yes.

Scene from Crazy Rich Asians in the street food market in Singapore

Parinita: Where the family come together to make the dumplings. And even that market in Singapore where they go and they eat this food, she was so happy to see that and so emotional to see that because she was starved for that representation. She hadn’t seen that in Hollywood movies. Because it was all burgers and whatever white American food would be. And she was saying that how when she was in school, when she would take her food that her Chinese mother would make. And it was made fun of. For being a different smell and a different texture and different kinds of things. Her classmates used to take peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. So for them, anything that was foreign was something that is made fun of and is sometimes treated with disgust. And it’s a bit similar in India because – it’s a religious, cultural thing where some people are vegetarians and some people are not. Some people eat meat in India depending on which religion you follow and which part of the country you come from. And in some schools, non-vegetarian food is not allowed at all. You’re not allowed to bring anything with meat in it to school. Whereas in other schools, including mine, when I was a kid, I had friends from different religious backgrounds. And I would have friends that if I took meat to school, they would make a face or make a fuss or be like, “No I don’t want to sit near you and eat because I don’t eat meat.” And that reminded me so much of her [Eugenia’s] conversation because as a kid, it’s something that you internalise. Then I stopped taking meat to school because I told my mom, “No, my friends turn away from it in disgust, so I don’t want to take meat to school. I don’t want to have that problem at all.”

H: Yeah.

Parinita: It is like one food habit is better than the other. Then that’s the atmosphere that you’re creating.

H: Hmm. Yeah. I remember one thing that when I cooked in the kitchen in my flat, some of my flatmates were wondering what that food was.

Parinita: Yeah.

H: They were very curious but also um … like strange.

Parinita: Yeah. And I think curiousity about an unfamiliar thing is obviously very normal.

H: Hmm.

Parinita: If you have not met something before in whatever form – food, culture, anything – you are curious about it. But I think the way you approach it matters so much. If you just approach it in a way like, “Ew, I’m not going to … this is not worthy of my attention or respect.” Versus oh you’re just trying to find out something about another culture. You’re just curious about that culture and you’re learning from them. I had friends in Glasgow who were from the US. In their part of the US, Indian food wasn’t popular, it wasn’t available easily. So they’d never eaten Indian food before; the first time they ate Indian food was in Scotland. And they loved it. They really loved the food. And then they’d come over to my house and I’d cook Indian food for them. And they were always so respectful. They were white Americans so they were used to being in the dominant group in their country. But they were still always so respectful and so curious about it. They never made fun – or not even fun – never made a face or refused to try any Indian food. They were always really curious and that made me feel welcome. Like even if I’m in this strange country with nobody like me around … different cultures can still come together in a more positive way.

H: Hmm.

Parinita: It depends on what kind of people you meet. And, of course, with the representation and politics of food, there’s also the representation and politics of language, right? Where some languages are considered to be the correct or the superior language depending on which part of the country or world you’re in. What has been your own experiences with this?

H: Yeah so we talked about this, right?

Parinita: Um hmm.

H: So English is considered and actually used worldwide. So in Japan for example there’s this ideology that English is cool.

Parinita: Hmm.

H: So America, the UK, Australia, Canada – developed white countries which speak English. Using one language – meaning English – is very useful for everyone. For me, if I could speak English, I could talk to a lot of people from different countries.

Parinita: Yeah, like us.

H: Yeah.

Parinita: Our podcast wouldn’t have been possible if both of us didn’t speak the same language.

H: Yeah. But at the same time, this inequality of language might cause native speakers to be arrogant.

Parinita: Um hmm.

H: Or create some stereotypes against non-English speaking people.

Parinita: Yeah. And like that essay that we read about Nina Coomes who moved from Japan to the US. She was this huge Pokémon fan and she wrote about that and the role Pokémon and language played in her life. She talked about how, when she moved to the US – a rural part of the country – when she was seven, it meant that she suddenly couldn’t communicate anymore. When she was back in Japan, she had all these ideas, she had all this language, all this vocabulary and she was considered smart.

H: Hmm.

Parinita: And suddenly she moves to a country where intelligence is measured by the language that you speak. And because she couldn’t speak English, she was not considered to be intelligent or cool or somebody that you want to be friends with. And she was so excited when Pokémon came to the US because she was like, “Okay maybe Pokémon is something that I could connect to people with. Use that as my common language.” And then to her horror, she realised that the words had been translated. So the Pokémon words in Japan were Japanese whereas when they came to the US, they were translated to English and she was like, “Okay even that one thing I can’t connect with.” Which I think is a very familiar experience to a lot of people who move from a country where English isn’t the dominant language to a country where English is the dominant language.

H: Um hmm.

Parinita: And yeah, India is the same; English is considered cool. English is also considered to be a language of the wealthy. In rural parts or in certain parts even in Mumbai – which is a big city – there will be communities where English isn’t spoken. But they have that sense of inferiority that they can’t speak English. So if somebody goes and speaks English, they will consider them smart and wealthy and cool even if they are smarter than this person who can speak English.

H: Hmm.

Parinita: Language plays such a big role in your own self-identity. Which is sad.

H: Maybe I could talk about one episode about language in Japan.

Parinita: Um hmm.

H: So compared to other countries, Japanese people seem to be not as good at speaking English or listening to or using English. Because I don’t know probably because of the difference of language. Japanese and English are very different. So it is a little bit harder for Japanese people to speak and listen to English.

Parinita: Um hmm.

H: So not all wealthy and affluent people can speak or can communicate in English. So we call this is half uh like American-Asian for example … people … uh a child or children of …

Parinita: So like a mixed-race couple?

H: Mixed-race people, yeah. They’re called half. And then some of them could speak English better than other normal ordinary Japanese.

Parinita: Hmm.

H: Or people who had lived in English-speaking countries and came back to Japan later are considered as very good English speakers. So those kind of people sometimes are looked up or are like, “Oh you’re great, you speak English very well.” Or “You sound like a native speaker of English.”

Parinita: Yeah.

H: So the situation is slightly different from the situation in India in Japan but yeah.

Parinita: Yeah. But again even though they are such different countries and contexts, you have so many similarities. The details might be different, but so many similarities. In Last Christmas, so Santa, she keeps changing her Chinese name depending on whichever job she goes to. So in the Christmas shop, she’s Santa. But when she used to work at a bakery, she was Muffin. She keeps changing it just because her Chinese name is too difficult for British people to pronounce.

H: Hmm.

Gif from Last Christmas with Santa's character. Text says: When I worked at the pet shop, I called myself Kitty

Parinita: And that reminded me of the experiences of Chinese students in the UK. I don’t know how common this is with Japanese students, but I know Chinese students – and this is something I found strange right in Scotland and even now that a lot of them, it’s like this cultural thing that they adopt an English name when they’re here.

H: Yes, yes.

Parinita: And I was really uncomfortable about it. Because I was like but it’s your name. We should be the ones who are learning how to pronounce it rather than you changing your whole name.

H: Yeah. All the Chinese students I met in Leeds also had their own English name. But that wasn’t the case with Japanese students, I think.

Parinita: Yeah. Like I was telling you my class in Scotland, in Glasgow, was really diverse. So it had people from Indonesia, Malaysia and different parts of Asia. And nobody else had this English name. It was just the Chinese students. Which made me feel even more uncomfortable. And that’s the dominance of English again. That people who speak English aren’t made to … face discomfort.

H: Hmm.

Parinita: Their – our discomfort I guess, not even their because I speak English – is not acceptable. So we don’t have to struggle to learn a name that’s unfamiliar to us. The person whose name is unfamiliar has to change their names to fit into the society, to the country and the university. Of course, I don’t know what Chinese people feel about this. I would love to find out.

H: Yeah.

Parinita: But as an outsider, it makes me uncomfortable. I wouldn’t want to do that. I call myself Pari because everybody calls me Pari, not because my name is too difficult to pronounce. Even in India, my mum, my family, everybody calls me Pari. It’s just a nickname. I wouldn’t come to the UK and be expected to change my name to make it easy.

H: So I was wondering if I should have my English name or not whilst I was there.

Parinita: Oh really?

H: Yeah but my name is [spells out name]

Parinita: Yeah.

H: So it’s not really hard to pronounce for a native speaker.

Parinita: Yeah.

H: But every time whenever I was asked my name, I usually had to say it several times.

Parinita: Hmm yeah. That’s really interesting because I think it tells a lot about a person how they deal with unfamiliarity either with a name, or food or language or anything. How they respond to it, I think, for me it really matters in how I consider that person and how I think that person is going to treat either me or anybody who is different. Like I said, I’m pretty lucky. I’ve not faced any discrimination, at least that I’m aware of. I might have behind the scenes but everyone has been really nice and strangers have not really – but like you, when I walk on the streets, I am very aware of the colour of my skin. And I am very aware that, “Oh people might be looking at me differently”. Because you can’t tell who’s racist and who’s not right? When you’re walking on the road, you’re like, “Oh this person looks ‘normal’ in air quotes. But they might be super racist so I don’t want to take the risk.” In Last Christmas, that scene where in the bus there’s this white, I think Eastern European, couple and they’re speaking in another language.

H: Yes.

Parinita: And this white man goes up to them and tells them, “Why don’t you speak English or just get out of my country?!”

H: Yeah. [laughs]

Parinita: I haven’t faced that. I have an Indian friend in Leeds. She’s also a PhD student and we sometimes mix languages – we call it Hinglish in India. Which is a mix of Hindi and English. So we use phrases from Hindi while we’re speaking in English – mix the two languages together. And at least so far nobody has told us to go back to our own country. But yeah, it’s something that I’m very aware can happen at any time in this country just because of language. Just before we wrap up, are there any final thoughts that you had?

H: I think changing how white people think about people of different races is important, but also how minority people receive and react to the things happened to you is also very important.

Parinita: That’s such a good point. Because we talk about the effect that it has on preventing racism from the majority people or any sort of discrimination from the majority group. But like you pointed out, there is so much internalised racism and internalised discrimination that you feel inferior because of the media messages that you’ve received. And that’s so important to confront as well. When I watch movies, well for me it’s about gender but also race; race more recently while I’ve been in the UK. When I watch movies that have women creators and women in the central role, that makes such a difference for me. I feel like I’ve been represented either on the page or on screen or whatever. And especially if it’s a brown woman, which is so rare to see in Western media, I feel even more seen. If there’s Indian traditions and Indian customs or whatever on the screen or in the page, it’s so exciting to me. So yeah, you’re so right that I think that’s such an important way of dealing with both majority and minority cultures.

H: Yeah. So there was a heavyweight boxing match a couple of months ago.

Parinita: Um hmm.

H: And that match was between Tyson Fury and Deontay Wilder. Do you know them?

Parinita: No.

H: Tyson Fury is British and white. And Wilder is American and black.

Parinita: Um hmm.

H: And I found people commenting on YouTube or somewhere, I forgot. But attacking some people saying, “You support Fury because he’s white or not white” or something like that.

Parinita: Hmm.

H: And some person was saying that I support Fury just because he’s from Britain and I’m from Britain. Not because Wilder is black or something like that. So I think the minority people you know races or gender or disability or whatever, tend to feel more … tend to get easily angry. Or damaged.

Parinita: Yeah because if you’re so starved for representation … Shaun Lau, an Asian-American guy on Black Girl Nerds, he said that, “The lack of representation in media is so important because it not just affects how people see you but it also affects how you see yourself.” Which is exactly what you said. And it’s exactly the point that you made about other marginalised people, other minority people. I think that now this conversation of diversity is more present everywhere – on the internet, like you were saying in classrooms and wherever, in film studies courses and children’s literature courses in the university, just in the world at large and Hollywood – that I hope there is going to be more room for diverse creators. Not just Asians but also people with disabilities or people with different gender identities and just different religions. Everything. So just we can see all the diversity of life onscreen. Which I think would be a really good way to go moving forward.

H: Yeah.

Parinita: Thank you so much H for coming on.

H: Thank you.

Parinita: And this was such an excellent conversation. I learned a lot just about Japanese culture in general and how different and also similar it is to Indian culture and what I’m used to. So thank you so much for being a part of this project. You were fantastic.

H: Thank you. That was quite interesting to know about India and about your ideas and thoughts. Thank you.

[Outro music]

You’ve been listening to our episode on representations of race and racism in Hollywood. Have you come across any examples of mainstream movies which challenge traditional representations of diversity? I’d love to add them to my list! Get in touch to let me know. Thanks for introducing me to these movies, and for the company, H. And thanks as always to Jack for taking care of the editing in the middle of everything else.

[Outro music]

You can now listen to Marginally Fannish on SpotifyAppleGoogle, or SoundCloud. I’d love to hear from you and talk to you – so any feedback, comments or critiques are very welcome! Get in touch with me on social media, leave a comment on my blog, or email me at edps@leeds.ac.uk. If you’d like to follow the podcast or the PhD project, visit my website marginallyfannish.org where you’ll find both the podcast episodes and the blog. You can also receive updates on Facebook or Instagram at Marginally Fannish or on Twitter where I’m @MarginalFannish. If you enjoyed the podcast, please share it with anyone you think will enjoy it too.

Thanks for listening! Tune in again next time for all things fannish and intersectional!

Episode 7 There’s Never Chicken Tikka Masala At Hogwarts: Different Cultures in Fantasy Media

Episode Resources:

For this episode we looked at the following texts:

Fan podcast – Breaking The Glass Slipper Cultural Traditions of Magic with Zen Cho

Fan podcast – Breaking The Glass Slipper Islands in Speculative Fiction: Live from WorldCon

Fan podcast – Imaginary Worlds Do You Speak Conlang?

Fan podcast – Imaginary Worlds In Defense of the Star Wars Holiday Special

Fan podcast – Reading, Writing, Rowling Amy H Sturgis: Fantasy, Imagination and Indigenous Futurism

Fan podcast – Reading, Writing, Rowling Harry Potter Voices Across Borders

Article – How Knowledge About Different Cultures Is Shaking the Foundations of Psychology

Episode Transcript:

This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity. If you would prefer the original, unedited version, please let me know!

Photo of Aditi Krishnakumar

[Intro music]

Welcome to Marginally Fannish, a show where we aim an intersectional lens at some of our favourite media and their fandoms.

[Intro music]

My name is Parinita Shetty and you’re listening to the seventh episode of Marginally Fannish. In this episode, I talk to Aditi Krishnakumar about how different cultures are represented in some of our favourite fantasy worlds. As readers who grew up in India, there were many cultural stereotypes in Western texts which we just didn’t pick up on. Now, we’ve learned a lot through the collective intelligence of online fandom.

The ways in which mainstream media portrays different cultures influences audience attitudes about people from these cultures. The dominance of Western fantasy and culture in fiction marginalises other ways of being in the world. In a lot of fantasy worlds, diverse cultures are used either as set-dressing or just for comic relief. The ways in which different languages and foods are depicted can also sideline certain groups of people.

What is considered the norm and what is exotic in popular fantasy? Whose cultures and intellectual histories are privileged? Such conversations about diversity among fans can play a huge role in decolonising traditional ideas of fantasy. Retellings of old stories – both in traditional media and within fandom – are increasingly used to subvert problematic ideas and reflect progressive values.

Find our conversation about all this and more in today’s episode.

Happy listening!

[Intro music]

Parinita: Today, I’m so glad that I get to chat with Aditi Krishnakumar. Aditi grew up in India and she now works in the finance industry in Singapore. And she enjoys reading and is a published writer. So we share a children’s book publisher – Duckbill Books in India. And when Aditi’s book was due to be released, my editors asked me if I’d like to interview her for their blog because they know I’m a middle-grade fantasy nerd. I fell so completely in love with The Magicians of Madh. And Aditi creates such a fascinating world populated with the most absurd characters – absurd in the best way possible. I love absurd characters. And so she has a bunch of absurd characters and cultures and I just didn’t want to stop reading her world. And if you’re into comic fantasy and middle-grade books, you should definitely check her book out as well. This week, Aditi and I are going to talk about how different cultures are represented in some of our favourite fantasy worlds – both of us love reading fantasy. And we’re also going to chat about our experiences in online fandom a bit. So Aditi, do you want to introduce your own experiences encountering different cultures – either in fiction, fandom or the real world?

Aditi: This is probably true for lots of us growing up in India – the first things that you read, the first fantasy, everything – it’s all Enid Blyton.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: And all the magical creatures that you hear about are the brownies and the pixies and –

Parinita: [laughs] Yeah.

Aditi: [laughs] And you know the things they eat, the puddings and cakes and jellies. So that was pretty much it. And then The Hobbit I guess was next. And these are all … they’re just so very, very British. Both of them. Like really British books. Which is fine because they were by British writers. But I think … it has changed now – but growing up, there was definitely not many fantasy books that were really relatable for me.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: In that world.

Parinita: I’m the same as well. I grew up reading Enid Blyton and other British and American books.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: So there was The Baby-Sitters Club and things and –

Aditi: Charlotte’s Web.

Parinita: Yeah. So even things that weren’t fantasy, or even if they were fantasy, the fantastical world was a whole other thing. And that real world in the UK or in the US was also this sort of foreign, alien world almost.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: And I also grew up watching a lot of Bollywood movies. I love Bollywood movies. I grew up in Mumbai.

Aditi: Um hmm.

Parinita: So it is pretty diverse but it’s still a very limited diversity. Even though we have a lot of people from all over the country in the city, especially when you’re younger, you only really interact with a limited group of people.

Aditi: Right, right. ’Cause in school you’ve just got a small bunch of friends.

Parinita: Exactly. Or in your housing society you’ll have neighbours and things. And so Bollywood introduced me to all these different cultures. I’ve never tried to look at Bollywood critically until a few years ago. And there are so many stereotypes in terms of different cultures that they portray in Bollywood movies as well. When it comes to tribal folk in Bollywood movies – and in Hollywood as well, I guess – and their customs, it’s just –

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: So full of stereotypes. Or even different religions or people from different regions – Gujarati stereotypes or South Indian stereotypes or Bengali stereotypes. There are so many. And in Enid Blyton, I know that she’s now being criticized a lot because golliwogs were supposed to represent black people in her books?

Aditi: Right, yeah. I think it’s one of those things that you can still – because I still think some things are really good about her books, especially her school stories, I think. You know they show girls being independent.

Parinita: Oh yeah.

Aditi: You don’t see that in The Famous Five and stuff but where her stories are exclusively about girls … I mean she does have problems and you can acknowledge them. But I think there’s still some great stuff.

Parinita: No, absolutely. I still love Enid Blyton’s books because it made me fall in love with reading.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: Those are the books that I read when I was six – The Faraway Tree and The Famous Five and things. And obviously at that age, I didn’t pick up on these anti-foreigner sentiments. And golliwogs and racism toh I wouldn’t even have thought of. Because I had no conception –

Aditi: I didn’t even know what a golliwog was.

Parinita: Yeah! Exactly! I mean there were pictures of the golliwog in the books, in some of the toys ones …

Aditi: In Noddy they had some golliwog pictures.

Parinita: Yeah. But I would never have – just because growing up in India, I don’t have that idea that oh this is supposed to represent black people. I just thought oh this is a doll.

Book cover of The Three Golliwogs by Enid Blyton

Aditi: You know I used to have those trolls when I was a kid right, those troll dolls.

Parinita: Yeah, yeah.

Aditi: Which I just thought it was something like that.

Parinita: It’s like with Harry Potter as well right? You can love the world and the story but you can also critique it. It doesn’t need to pass by unproblematically but you can still love it. I think it’s that balance. And it’s difficult because I think especially the books and things that were written a longer time ago when these conversations weren’t happening, if we read them through 2020 [the year the episode was recorded in] lenses, it might not be as diverse and inclusive as we want them to be. And I think it’s important to have that conversation that this is where it is missing.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: I would still want to read Enid Blyton books because the stories themselves are something that I have such positive associations with. So just to begin with our episode, a few of the podcast episodes that you and I listened to, touched on the theme of the dominance of Western fantasy and culture in fiction.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: And how this either marginalizes or exoticises other cultures and beliefs. And we talked about Enid Blyton a bit. When you were listening to this, did you think of any examples yourself?

Aditi: I mean one was Blyton herself ’cause there’s this some – I forget which one it is, it’s one of these Five Find-Outers books.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: Where … oh I remember – I think it’s The Missing Prince or The Vanished Prince or something like that. So there’s an Indian price called Bongawi.

Parinita: Oh.

Aditi: Or Bongawa or something.

Parinita: Yeah that very Indian name. [laughs]

Aditi: Yes. So I mean that’s the kind of thing I thought – at the time I honestly I’m not sure I even realised they meant Indian like people from India. I don’t know what I thought. But it’s not something –

Parinita: Yeah because they also call Native Americans Indians, right? A lot of these early books, American Indians was this other thing.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: So in Breaking The Glass Slipper, The Cultural Traditions of Magic Episode with Zen Cho

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: She was talking about how the fantasy fiction that we read is, it currently depends on which culture is dominant. And mostly the stuff that is dominant right now is Western fantasy. It’s British and it’s American. And even on television. So I didn’t even realise these ideas of fantasy that had been shaped by Western culture. Because you grow up in India, at least if you grow up in certain parts of India, in cities and things, you have access to both Western and Indian culture.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: You have influences of both. So I thought it was interesting that she pointed this out, because even she is from Malaysia – she’s Malaysian-British. And she pointed out how a lot of Western fantasy is very Judeo-Christian. And it exoticises anything that doesn’t fit within that framework. And I was like oh yeah I actually hadn’t thought about that.

Aditi: It does, right? The other thing that you’d shared, I think the article [she meant podcast episode] about the Star Wars Holiday Special.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: I like Star Wars but I think that’s part of the reason everyone tends to make fun of that. And you can kind of see why people make fun of it ‘cause it’s just so obviously –

Parinita: Have you watched it? The Star Wars Holiday Special?

Aditi: I hadn’t watched it for years but when I read that article, I saw a bit of it on YouTube.

Parinita: Yeah. Oh my god. So just as an aside, because I have to say I just love that movie so much [laughs].

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: One of my friends introduced it to me a couple of years ago.

Aditi: Um hmm.

Parinita: We were just doing this bad movie night thing where we’d have these regular bad movie nights at their flat. And we watched this and I just couldn’t believe that this cultural touchstone that Star Wars is and The Star Wars Holiday Special, what it is. I don’t even ironically love it, I very sincerely and –

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: Unironically love that ridiculous little movie that even George Lucas has completely divorced himself from.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: Like nope, I’m not going to do this. But yeah, sorry I interrupted you.

Aditi: I think it started from George Lucas because you always read about how he was influenced by Joseph Campbell and I read this book at some point of how Harry Potter also reflects the hero’s journey from Campbell. But the thing is Joseph Campbell’s books themselves have always felt like they are so … even his books about oriental mythology are still so much from a Western lens.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: And that’s the proto-text that people very often consider now for fantasy writing or for epic writing. But that itself is such a Western lens that you know that’s –

Parinita: Yeah and even on a couple of the Imaginary Worlds episodes that we listened to. How they were talking about basically science fiction – I don’t know if it was the ones that we listened to but I listen to a lot of his episodes. And just the analogy with science fiction. Things like Star Trek where the whole concept is discovery and whatever, but it is a very Western colonial perspective as well.

Aditi: It is.

Parinita: Which you don’t think about right? At least I don’t. I’ve grown up not thinking critically about media at all.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: I just – I’m entertained by media. And it’s only now that I found that I have those tools and the vocabulary to articulate these things. But also I enjoy doing it. I enjoy looking at these things critically. I was watching Star Wars the original trilogy the other day and the Ewoks are also so very stereotypically tribal I was like okay yeah this is interesting. I didn’t realise how much …

Aditi: When you see it as a kid, you just think that they’re kind of cute.

Parinita: Yeah! And even The Star Wars Holiday Special. So the first twenty minutes is – and this is what I love telling my friends about this movie, about how ridiculous this movie is – it is twenty minutes of unsubtitled Wookie dialogue.

Aditi: [laughs] I read that.

Parinita: So they’re just –

Aditi: That’s just –

Parinita: Yeah. [laughs] They’re just literally grunting. You have to just imagine what they’re saying to each other and you don’t have this context. But like I said, I unironically love this movie. But because I love critically analyzing it, I was also thinking, to me it was a bit like how someone who doesn’t speak the dominant language in a culture or doesn’t belong to the dominant religion or the race or whatever, depending on where they are, and how for them, their culture is marginalised as well.

Aditi: Yes.

Parinita: Like in this Wookie land, obviously nobody understands them. We, the audience don’t understand them. And it’s so easy to make fun of it – to laugh it off.

Aditi: But you know on a somewhat related note, this is one thing I found when watching not the really big-budget Hollywood movies but some TV shows and things like that. When they’re speaking, especially when they’re speaking in Tamil occasionally and very often they’re allegedly speaking in Tamil which I speak. But I don’t know that it’s Tamil.

Parinita: Aaah.

Aditi: Because it sounds nothing like it. And I have to read the subtitles. So it’s sort of –

Parinita: [laughs] Ohhh right!

Aditi: You’ve not actually even got someone like a decent voice coach. Which they would do if someone was speaking French or Spanish or something.

Parinita: I know we’re going to talk about it a little more later but just because like you said that it’s just the politics of language as well. I was watching um what’s uh I’ve completely blanked out on the name – Hasan Minhaj’s show? The one on Netflix? [Patriot Act]

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: I love that show. And he was doing an episode on India – the Indian political system. I think it was about Modi. I’m not sure. So he started speaking in Hindi at one point and the subtitles said, “speaks in a foreign language”.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: And I was like ummm first of all, you’re a global platform. You’re on Netflix. I mean it’s produced in the US but it is on a global platform. So foreign for whom? And also you’re literally talking about the Indian elections. It wouldn’t have been so difficult to figure out that it is Hindi or to just look it up or something. Yeah, I sent a very outraged message to one of my friends.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: Saying, “Foreign to whom?!” So the problem isn’t obviously including diverse cultures in your world. You want diverse cultures. It’s only I think when you use these unfamiliar cultures as if they’re – I think Zen Cho mentioned this – as if they’re set-dressing in your fantasy world.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: Especially if that culture is marginalised in the real world.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: One of the things that we read [I meant an episode we listened to] was the whole Native American fiasco that J. K. Rowling had found herself in.

Aditi: Oh my god yeah. With those Skinwalker things. That was just …

Parinita: Yeah! And honestly I have to admit, I don’t know that much about Native American culture and about what they consider really sacred and what they consider really a part of their culture. I think another thing that’s really popular on the internet now – or it was a few years ago – was the term “my spirit animal”.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: Like something is my spirit animal. Which now a lot of Native people on Twitter and things say that, “No this is offensive to us, we don’t like you using this. So instead why don’t you use Patronus because that’s basically what you mean and that’s not offending anybody.” She’s [Rowling] so rich. Why doesn’t she just hire a research assistant to do this stuff?

Aditi: I know! [laughs]

Parinita: It’s just ridiculous to me.

Aditi: No, I think that’s what’s happened with her is that as long as she was writing about British things in a British setting, she probably knew what was too sacred to be touched simply because she grew up with it. But once anyone, not just J. K. Rowling, once anyone starts writing about something that unfamiliar …

Parinita: But you would think that especially now because this she did not write in the 90s – about Magic in North America on her Pottermore essays

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: It was now. When these conversations are very present. This is happening on the internet. And even if she doesn’t spend time on the internet, the fact that you have this power and your voice is reaching so many people and you know that your franchise is super popular, you would think that you would make more of an effort.

Aditi: You should do a bit more.

Parinita: Yeah!

Aditi: It’s not just that. It’s like her list of wizarding schools.

Parinita: [laughs] Oh my god.

Aditi: You’ve got three of them in Europe and all of Asia has one wizarding school in Japan.

Parinita: Yeah! In Japan! I was listening to this other podcast Woke Doctor Who where they were doing a Harry Potter thing. And one of them, she’s Chinese-American. And she was like um Japan attacked China a few decades ago.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: I don’t think Chinese wizards would be really happy to go to Japan just like yeah hello, everything’s all right. And Africa I think has one? The whole of Africa has one wizarding school as well.

Aditi: Yeah. This is basic maths. She just needs to work out the population and figure out where the schools should be, that’s it.

Parinita: Yeah. And the UK I mean it’s such a tiny place and they get this whole British wizarding school. Which of course has its own issues. So I didn’t realise this earlier. All these British politics I’ve only learned the nuances of once I’ve moved to the UK.

Aditi: Um hmm.

Parinita: But Jack, who is Scottish, he had encountered this thing about Seamus Finnigan. He doesn’t read Harry Potter but he knows some things.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: And Seamus Finnigan, this Irish character who loves blowing things up and setting things on fire.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: And I was like oh my god what! [laughs] I didn’t even make that connection that your one Irish character loves blowing things up.

Gif from the Harry Potter movies of Seamus Finnigan accidentally blowing up a potion

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs] I guess there is an element of parody. I suppose you’re just doing it …

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: Or maybe she thought that she was doing it as parody, I suppose?

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: But I don’t know where that line is between – this North America thing, definitely she’s crossed the line because there have been Native American fans of Harry Potter who’ve called her out on it and she hasn’t yet to my belief, she hasn’t responded to the critique at all.

Aditi: Right. And the other thing is the Nagini thing which has been another disaster I think for her. And in so many ways it’s just so wrong to begin with. She’s not really focused on the mythology. Which is a secondary thing. But also this whole concept. I don’t know if she thought about it at the time when she said that killing Nagini was necessary. I don’t think Harry Potter spoilers count now, do they?

Parinita: No, no. I mean I’ll put a spoiler warning anyway. But yeah.

Aditi: But when you realise then that she was in fact a woman who was forced to be in that form and then killing her is necessary. And it’s just such a really, really terrible thing.

Parinita: And especially in a world where the characters of colour you can count on like maybe if not one hand, on two hands. Even though I think Nagini is from Crimes of Grindelwald?

Aditi: She is, yeah.

Parinita: I haven’t watched that movie yet. It’s on my list. As a proper Harry Potter scholar I suppose I should.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: But I’ve heard such bad things about it that it’s completely put me off watching it. But yeah even in the Harry Potter world but also in that prequel world, there aren’t that many characters of colour. So the way to include diversity isn’t necessarily to make this dramatic death scene.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: I don’t know it just seems basic. And some of these ideas you know they become so ingrained in you unconsciously because of what we’re exposed to, because of what we’re reading. We internalize these ideas of fantasy that we don’t even understand that oh this is our idea of fantasy. Which is why I love Terry Pratchett, his Discworld books.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: Because they push against it so often. They just take these tropes and stereotypes and they turn it upside down in a way that the reader’s like oh yeah you’re subverting it! And in a way that’s not obviously subverting it. Like he’s not saying oh look at me, look at how clever I am.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: But I mean he is pretty clever. So I love Terry Pratchett.

Aditi: Yeah, that’s true. And all of his characters who make a difference like Vimes and Lady Sybil and Granny Weatherwax, they’re not stereotypical, heroic characters.

Parinita: Yeah. And they’re taking witches, for example, or aristocracy or just guards. And it’s taking them and it’s not completely doing away with their identity. It’s not subverting it in a way that their history doesn’t matter if that makes sense.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: It’s using their history and their identity to subvert, which I really like.

Aditi: No, I think that’s cool. The solution is not to say I’m introducing this character who’s diverse but they’re exactly like all the other characters and it’s just that from their name or the actor playing them or something, that’s how you know that they’re diverse.

Parinita: Yeah! Exactly. I’m always torn you know as a writer but also as a reader. Because currently diversity is so … we’re still not there yet where we’ve achieved equal representation.

Aditi: Right

Parinita: So what’s the better way where you don’t mention anyone’s race or ability or gender, gender identity or whatever. And you just allow people to read themselves into it? Or you explicitly mention all the diverse identities so that it is more explicit?

Aditi: Yeah actually I think both ways work. I mean to an extent. ’Cause if you’re in a fantasy world with made-up names then it’s fine, you don’t have to. People can just imagine anything. Sometimes in the real world, just the sort of names and locations give you a bit of an idea of at least culturally what you mean. Honestly and I know I’m speaking from a position of privilege here because I can afford not to care but it’s just … something I’ve never really thought about one way or another in books. Because all this thing about shipping and who do you want to be dating whom and all that, I’ve never been involved in and never really have I cared about it. It’s always sort of like you know …

Parinita: Yeah like what other people say. I honestly didn’t think about these things either. Until I was listening to this episode um I forget the name of the Harry Potter podcast – oh yeah #WizardTeam. And it’s these two black American fans who are reading each chapter.

Aditi: Um hmm.

Parinita: And they just have a commentary. And they read Hermione but also Hagrid and Minerva McGonagall as black because they’d said that there is nothing that said otherwise in the text. In Harry Potter, all the characters who are not white – their race is mentioned.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: Whereas everybody else is normal I guess. Or you just don’t need to know their race because they’re obviously white.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: So I realised that when I’m reading Harry Potter or I’m reading any text that is Western-authored, for me everyone is white. I’ve not yet been able to decolonise my mind that much that I read my race or another race into it. I need to be told that this person is black or this person is Asian just for me to be able to even imagine differently. I suppose because –

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: I’ve only been reading certain kind of books and watching a certain kind of –

Aditi: You know that happens with me too. When it’s a Western writer … yeah you’re right, unless they specifically say this character is whatever they are, you just assume that they are white.

Parinita: Yeah. Which is why I’m trying to … so over the last, I think, year or a bit, I was trying to read more fantasy exclusively authored by women. It just started off randomly but then I realised that I actually really enjoy the different kinds of stories that are here now when it’s women who are authoring these worlds. And in a way that I didn’t even realise I was missing. Because I was reading most of the books that are written by men or TV shows and movies that are created by men.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: And then I started reading more books from women of colour as they say in the US which now it’s a term I’ve adopted whereas both of us – we are women of colour. We are both from India. Like even in Singapore –

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: There everyone is from … I think it’s very multicultural right? A lot of different countries’ inhabitants?

Aditi: It is, yeah. Especially in the business district and all you could be in any country because there are Chinese and Japanese and Indians and Europeans so there’s like everybody.

Parinita: Yeah. Which I think is so … like there’s so much potential because now at least in a lot of bigger cities, it is so multicultural.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: In Mumbai, it may not be in terms of – there are of course non-Indians who come and live there as well. Who some people will call expats because immigrants is only for brown people.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: But there’s also so many people from other parts of the country, right? India is essentially like twenty-seven different countries in one.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: And there is so much potential. But it seems like the way it’s divided is between dominant and marginalised – that’s the sort of relationship different people share. It’s such a pity because we’re missing out on so much. We as in we from the dominant culture within India or Singapore I guess.

Aditi: Yeah, no we do. But honestly, I’m not quite sure what the way around this is because when you think about it, it just doesn’t end well if you try to force people to interact. So it’s just one of those things that has to happen organically.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: And I hate that word but that is the only word for it.

Parinita: No, that’s true. Which is why for me, media is such an important way to do this. Because if your media shows these cultures – and whatever media not just books and fantasy but also movies and TV shows and things. If you are showing them only in stereotypes, then that’s how people who don’t know these others – who don’t interact with people who are not like them in the real world will then have this idea of those people, right? I didn’t sound very coherent but –

Aditi: [laughs] No but I know what you mean. You’re right. Because if your only exposure to somebody is through Hollywood which will happen if you’re Indian and you’re maybe living in a smaller town or something. Your only exposure to people from like China may be through movies.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: And then you’re just going to have this idea that could be really, really wrong.

Parinita: Yeah. And now of course there’s like ugh just mentioning China now is so fraught because just the amount of – I don’t know how it is in Singapore because obviously it’s a very different part of the world. But in the UK there have been so many attacks against not just Chinese people but also East Asian people in general. Because of this whole Coronavirus thing. And it’s just like it – it’s just – it makes me very depressed to talk about, honestly I shouldn’t have brought this up. But I think there is a link between how you consider people from another country just because of the media. Not just entertainment media but news media as well. If they’re so othered that it’s almost like they’re aliens and you know their – even the language that’s used, like in the US, for example, oh aliens.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: Mexicans are aliens.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: Of course it would have an effect. The language that you use is important. It is political. In India as well, people from Pakistan or from other parts of the country – if you use a word like cockroaches for them; if you’re a minister of a party who’s using this language, how do you make it better? That organic growth, it’ll be impossible for that to be achieved you know.

Aditi: Right. Yeah, no that’s true. There has to be … I don’t know it’s really depressing to think about it.

Parinita: It is. Let’s move on to some of our fantasy before we get really, really sad about this. Because while it is important, I don’t know how much we can do – what we can do about it.

Aditi: But can you imagine if Trump, when he was talking about Mexicans, if instead of calling them illegal aliens, he called them expats or something?

Parinita: Yeah! Exactly. I obviously consider myself an immigrant in the UK currently because I’m living here. But I can’t call myself an expat because first of all that word is … I’m very doubtful of that word.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: I side-eye it. But also I’m brown so I’m not allowed to call myself an expat. And I’m not rich so I’m definitely not allowed to call myself an expat.  So moving on to less depressing topics. Or maybe not. Maybe Harry Potter might also depress us. But I do love Harry Potter. [laughs]

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: Despite all the problems that it has.

Aditi: No, that’s okay. We’ll still have fun.

Parinita: Yeah. [laughs] So perhaps we could think about what is considered the norm and what is considered exotic in some of our favourite worlds. One of the examples that I think you’d shared with me a few weeks ago was from Pratchett.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: Do you mind just briefly talking about that?

Aditi: Right. So Pratchett whom I mean I love him to bits. I don’t remember which book it was. I think it was Snuff.

Parinita: Um hmm.

Aditi: But there’s this bit where there’s one of the characters whose mother or grandmother or something came from a country that is sort of a stand-in for China.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: And there’s a running joke throughout the book that she makes a dish called Man Dog Suck Po and then there’s another dish with another similar name. It’s basically played for jokes.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: I thought that was tragic because Pratchett is so brilliant. He doesn’t need to do this.

Photo of a page from a Discworld book. Text says: Vimes hesitated. It didn't do to upset an old mum. It was time to let the duke out. Vimes never normally bowed to anybody, but he bowed to Mistress Upshot, who almost dropped her tray in ecstatic confusion. 'I am mortified, my dear Mistress Upshot, to have to ask you to keep your Man Dog Suck Po warm for us for a little while, because your son here, a credit to his uniform and to his parents, has asked me to assist him in an errand of considerable importance, which can only be entrusted to a young man with integrity, as your lad here.' As the woman very nearly melted in pride and happiness Vimes pulled the young man away. 'Sir, the dish was Bang Suck Duck. We only have Man Dog Suck Po on Sundays. With mashed carrots.' Vimes turned back and shook Mrs Upshot warmly by the hand, and said, 'I look forward to tasting it later, my dear Mistress Upshot, but if you'll excuse me, your son is a stickler for his police work, as I'm sure you know.'

Parinita: Yeah I know. And I think even with people who consider themselves progressive, people who consider themselves I suppose above such cultural goof-ups – or just horrible cultural missteps – it’s so important to be on the guard against these things. Because like we were talking about earlier, it’s so internalised.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: That you don’t even realise what you’re doing is ridiculous or is terrible.

Aditi: Right. And I mean there’s not even a moment which would possibly have redeemed it when people try this thing and say, oh it’s actually good and I liked it or something. It’s just a joke.

Parinita: Yeah. It’s just like diversity for the sake of humour and comic relief. And the Amy Sturgis episode on Reading, Writing, Rowling that we were listening to about indigenous futurism? They were making fun of the horrible way in which Rowling has written about indigenous people. They mentioned, “the radical idea that Native Americans have their own intellectual history.” It’s this thing that to others – to people who are not well-versed with this culture or who are just looking at it from this colonial perspective – don’t realise that Native Americans, even though their knowledge and practices differ from ours, or in India it might be different regions or even or tribal or rural sort of practices, it is still a valid way of understanding the world and interacting with the world. It just doesn’t match your own. And it was reminding me then of other cultures within Harry Potter whose cultures and intellectual histories are dismissed and mocked. So for example, Ron and just I think the magical world in general is so suspicious of goblins. And the way that they engage with magic and objects and whatever.

Aditi: Right. And it’s so silly because when you think about it, the goblins are running the economy. You should be really grateful to them because I don’t think anyone in the wizarding world can do maths.

Parinita: [laughs] No. I mean their system is so complicated like how many Knuts and Sickles and –

Aditi: Can you imagine if you’re trying to make change and you’re going what is twenty-nine into seventeen or something.

Parinita: [laughs] I know. And yeah, so I was also thinking that the Muggle culture within that and the Muggle-born culture as well is also so diminished.

Aditi: It is. And you know there’s one thing that didn’t occur to me at first but later when I re-read and thought about it, I thought it was really awful. Which is right upfront when Hagrid says, we don’t reveal ourselves to Muggles. And the reason is that they’d want magical solutions to their problems. And okay you don’t want to just be fixing people’s glasses and all, I get it. But when you realise that wizarding medicine in Rowling’s world is so advanced.

Parinita: Yeah!

Aditi: And they’re just keeping it to themselves because they can’t be stuffed. That’s really awful.

Parinita: Yeah! And we were talking about this in an earlier episode – me and my friends. And we were like, could they fix the climate crisis? Why wouldn’t you? You live with the Muggles as well right? Do you not want the planet to be all right?

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: And also the thing is that they have such a paternalistic attitude towards Muggles and Muggle-born culture. So I re-read Philosopher’s Stone recently.

Aditi: Um hmm.

Parinita: And this Hermione’s obsession with reading everything to know about the magical world and being this rule-follower until … she isn’t. But still largely following rules.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: And I was thinking that that’s so similar to the experiences of an immigrant right?

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: Either in another country or even in another –

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: Like from rural to urban or whatever. And you want to be the best version of yourself because if you go wrong, you will be held as the representative for your entire race or religion or … yeah whatever. And nobody seems to really be that curious about Hermione’s Muggle background – except Arthur Weasley. But even he isn’t – it’s in a way that’s –

Aditi: It’s like he’s looking at something in a zoo.

Parinita: Yeah! Or in a museum. Okay magic is super advanced in some cases. But in other cases, like Muggles, we use ballpoint pens. [laughs]

Aditi: [laughs] They’re using quills and ink.

Parinita: Yeah! We don’t use chamber pots and I don’t know … some of them I think still use chamber pots or was it just Dumbledore – I don’t know. I have this –

Aditi: It’s Dumbledore who found chamber pots in the Room of Requirement.

Parinita: Oh yeah! Yeah! Which like … um plumbing?

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: So no, it’s just like there’s so much that can be achieved through cross-cultural collaboration.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: If the wizards and witches actually respected or were curious about Muggle culture, imagine how much better Hogwarts would be. Health and safety would definitely be better. Because they don’t seem to have heard about it. Maybe therapy? Some of the professors could also do with therapy, I think.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: And just the internet! Imagine how much miscommunication has happened in even just the Order of the Phoenix.

Aditi: I mean just imagine if Harry had a cellphone then Sirius would not be dead.

Parinita: I know! [laughs] I know!

Aditi: But you know another thing that I – and that’s another thing that I realised only after you put that thing about food in the Google doc [we use while planning the episode], the other thing that struck me is that in all of Harry Potter, all the food is just exactly like in Enid Blyton.

Parinita: Oh yeah!

Aditi: And I think the most foreign thing they have is like bouillabaisse.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: Even that is making fun of it but –

Parinita: Yeah because, oh what is this foreign thing that only Fleur seems to want?

Aditi: Yeah. But actual British culture I mean they do have a lot of other food I would think.

Parinita: Oh, you know what the national dish of the UK is? Chicken tikka masala. [laughs]

Aditi: Yeah exactly. But there’s never chicken tikka masala at Hogwarts.

Parinita: Exactly! I’m not even joking. This is something that Scotland claims to have invented which I’m taking with a grain of salt.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: It was some Bangladeshi immigrants in Scotland that apparently invented chicken tikka masala. Which fine whatever. When I used to read about Enid Blyton food as a kid, it used to seem so exotic and so exciting to me.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: And when I re-read it as an adult, I was like oh you’re eating boiled eggs with a twist of salt? Okay.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: That’s cool. I understand because I’ve read this that she’d written about it in the post-Second-World-War atmosphere where there was lots of rationing happening in the UK. So she was trying to make simple food and things sound exciting. Which worked because yeah it was super exciting even to this kid in India who had really yummy food around her. So the diversity in Hogwarts, what are the Patil twins eating? Are they happy with this bland British food?

Aditi: They’re having toast and marmalade for breakfast.

Parinita: Yeah!

Aditi: Every day.

Parinita: Yeah! Do they not want some masala in their –

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: I know what a struggle it is because I have a white Scottish boyfriend who is used to some spice but is not used to Indian level of spice.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: So  it’s always a compromise in terms of spice. And he knows I like chili in everything. I like chili flakes in most things.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: So I need some spice. How can you be an Indian or a child of an Indian immigrant in Hogwarts and not want … I don’t know some curry powder in everything.

Aditi: All of them. Or even Cho Chang, she never gets noodles. I think they’re always having –

Parinita: That’s true! There are no noodles in Hogwarts! What a travesty! There’s no fish and chips either. Which is I suppose would be considered more … I don’t know if there’s a class connotation …

Aditi: Maybe they can go to the Hog’s Head and get fish and chips.

Parinita: Ah perhaps. So it’s all healthy food in Hogwarts. Which is quite boring. Even dal would have also – [laughs]

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: Or lentil soup as they call it here. [laughs] That would have been at least more exciting. I never thought about the food in Hogwarts actually, about how narrow it is. What a fixed definition of food there is. And yeah I wonder if there’s fanfiction out there about just having a desi Christmas or a Diwali maybe.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: Maybe the Patils could celebrate Diwali or I don’t know whatever other – I’m very bad with my Hindu festivals. And in … I don’t know in Star Wars and things, food is not really mentioned …  except in the Star Wars Holiday Special where there was another twenty-minute segment which consisted of a person on the TV cooking something.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: With an increasing number of arms that came out. I’m telling you, everybody needs to go watch this movie because it is amazing. [laughs]

Aditi: [laughs] Food is not … I mean you see a bit of it here and there but it’s not really a focus.

Parinita: Which I don’t understand because for me food is the most important part of any adventure. [laughs] Like why – I suppose they’re busy fighting a genocidal maniac I guess so it’s okay.

Aditi: Maybe Jedi knights don’t care about food.

Parinita: Oh what a sad future! Is this the future that we’re heading towards? Oh no!

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: I know there have been a lot of critiques in A Song of Ice and Fire for his [George R. R. Martin’s] obsession with describing food. And Lord of the Rings as well. No, his [J. R. R. Tolkien] was trees.

Aditi: Yeah. [laughs]

Parinita: [laughs] Even in terms of food of course but there’s also language.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: We briefly spoke about that before and yeah I was thinking – just like in terms of the Wookie language, but also like in any of the fantasy worlds, of course, English is – because they’re written I suppose in the UK and the US. But the foreign languages that I can think of for example in the Lord of the Rings I think Elvish is one.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: Right? And the Orcs have their own language.

Aditi: Yeah, yeah.

Parinita: From what I remember. And obviously one is good whereas the other is evil.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: The people who come from the East are not to be trusted. [laughs] They’re villains. Whereas the Elves, they have this gentle tongue.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: No problems there.

Aditi: But yeah, no I think the way they handle languages is – and I think that’s a problem with Tolkien definitely ‘cause he’s … I mean I don’t want to speculate because it was so long ago so I don’t want to speculate about whether or not it was intentional. But everything that happens is focused on the West. And the East … I mean there are a lot of these mysterious events that happen there like the elves walk on the shore of the sea and they came to the west and the two blue wizards went there and they were never heard of again. So you have no idea what’s happening there. It’s just the sort of – for all you know there are snake charmers. It’s this sort of mysterious exotic place and we’ve got no clue what’s going on. And a part of it is also I think is that it was Tolkien’s area of study.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: The Anglo-Saxon and Nordic. And so it’s natural possibly that all the languages he invented should sort of be based on that. But yeah I don’t know I think culturally it’s also that his intention was to create a mythology for England.

Parinita: Hmm.

Aditi: So he wasn’t trying to be diverse which –

Parinita: Yeah

Aditi: I mean that’s not an excuse – it isn’t diverse.

Parinita: No. I mean I do understand what you’re saying. I suppose especially when – he was writing what during the 60s? The 1960s? 50s? Or something like that.

Aditi: Yeah. I mean he started writing a bit earlier than that. Started creating a bit earlier than that. But yeah then the books were coming out then.

Parinita: Yeah so I mean I do understand why diversity wasn’t such a big thing. But then the sort of ideas that we have … because I think Zen Cho said that currently Western culture is global culture. Just because of how cultural imperialism has moved in terms of media. And English itself is considered this language of intelligence.

Aditi: Hmm.

Parinita: In India.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: I’m talking specifically of India. One of my neighbours back home in Bombay, she had an interview in a school for her kid. Her kid was three or four so they wanted to get into a this fancy international school.

Aditi: Um hmm.

Parinita: And she was so worried. She wanted me to come to her the night before and teach her English because she was like, I don’t know to speak English. She speaks in Marathi. And she’s like, if I speak in Marathi and if I’m not able to speak in English, they’re going to think I won’t be able to look after my child’s education or they’re going to think I’m not intelligent.

Aditi: Oh god.

Parinita: Yeah! Right?! And this is in Mumbai where it’s full of Maharashtrians. It’s full of people who speak Marathi.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: And I did tell her don’t worry about the language so much. But also, on the other hand, there are people – people who speak in English – who do equate English with intelligence. And if you don’t speak in English, you’re obviously not as intelligent or your ideas are not as worthy as someone who does speak in English.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: Yeah it’s so sad. I think just talking about these things, it helps. But if you’re just talking amongst people who think like you, it’s … we’re just coming up with problems on this episode. [laughs] Like here’s a problem!

Aditi: No but actually now that you mention it, so there is this the thing in Lord of the Rings, the book, it doesn’t come in the movies. So Frodo, when he leaves Bag End, he meets these elves who are all going West because everyone goes to the West, it’s amazing.

Parinita: Yeah. [laughs]

Aditi: So there are two forms of Elvish that are primarily spoken in Middle-earth – Sindarin and Quenya. And Quenya is the one that is better and higher and everything. So he knows the Quenya greeting because Bilbo taught him.

Parinita: Ah.

Aditi: And he uses that and the elves are immediately like I think they name him Elf-friend on the spot.

Parinita: [laughs]

Aditi: So that’s pretty much the same thing that’s happened to your neighbour I guess.

Parinita: Yeah!

Aditi: Or that she thought would happen to her.

Parinita: And also just as a side-note, I find it really interesting that people like Tolkien fans are so excited to learn like Elvish or Star Trek fans are so excited to learn Klingon but not an actual foreign language that might make their neighbour more comfortable or somebody you know more comfortable.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: You know language is like food as well. I think in one of the episodes that I was listening to after we spoke when we were planning the episode, it was another Imaginary Worlds podcast episode about food in fantasy. And one of the guests was talking about how food is used to express xenophobia. Not just in the real world. Obviously in the real world where if you meet this unfamiliar food –

Aditi: Um hmm

Parinita: You’re like eww what is this, and it meets with disgust. But also in science fiction and fantasy, where if you’re going to this new either planet or country or land or whatever, there’s so much that can be done to push against what happens in the real world rather than just replicating what happens in the real world.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: I’m happy that even though something is so internalised, it’s difficult to unlearn these things, but still there’s still conversation happening. Like you and I we’re having one but also just on the internet in general. There’s more conversation about diversity so people are becoming aware of these things and it’s helping decolonise traditional ideas of fantasy.

Aditi: Yeah, I’ve learned to re-examine a lot of the things I thought and the way I read fantasy just through like Tumblr and Facebook. Well not Facebook so much, Tumblr. And stuff online.

Parinita: Yeah absolutely. Me too. Because you’re not learning these things in school, right? Nobody is telling you these things. Where else are you learning these things?

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: It’s just the internet and for me fandom. That’s one of the major reasons that I started this podcast for the PhD project because for me, fandom has been such a tremendous learning experience and critically analysing things and unlearning problematic things that I have internalised.

Aditi: I think part of the problem in schools at least might just be that they don’t know how to have these conversations. ’Cause one of the literature texts that I did in school was The Tempest.

Parinita: Hmm.

Aditi: And I mean I love Shakespeare too but that is also problematic in so many ways. But that’s just something they don’t talk about in schools. And maybe they don’t know how – they can’t you know …

Parinita: Oh yeah! You’re so right. I think more contemporary texts need to be used in schools anyway.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: But even if you want to place them in conversation with what you consider classic texts, there is such an opportunity to talk about anti-Semitism or to talk about problematic ideas in something like Shakespeare for example.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: I used to do this reading programme in a school in Mumbai.

Aditi: Um hmm.

Parinita: And one of the people really wanted to get rid of the fairy tale books in the library. Because she said that, which is true, a lot of the fairy tales, they have really problematic ideas of gender.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: But I told her that I think getting rid of these books would really be a lost opportunity because they’re going to be getting these messages outside anyway. Like we were talking about Disney.

Aditi: Yeah

Parinita: It is this huge corporate behemoth which is going to pervade everything.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: And I think a better use of that would be to read these stories but then teach the kids to problematise them; see what can be challenged in these ideas within the story that you don’t have to accept.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: And similarly in Shakespeare as well, I’m sure.

Aditi: Right. Because it’s the same thing we were talking about earlier. You can appreciate something and still realise that it’s got problems.

Parinita: Yeah! Exactly. So one of my favourite things is retellings of fairy tales or of mythology.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: Or just of old stories that were written when everything was really problematic if we look at it from now. But then they subvert the stories in ways that make them really relevant and contemporary and make it more exciting for us.

Aditi: Yeah. But actually you know I was reading this thing on – I think on Tumblr or somewhere a while ago. And I thought it was really cool. So it was about fairy tales and the original fairy tales, not retellings. About the good things even in those. So basically the one I remember is Cinderella ’cause she was saying that obviously it’s full of problems. But then the thing is also that Cinderella manages to stay hopeful despite all the horrible things that are happening to her.

Parinita: Hmm.

Aditi: And she stays kind and she is still a good person despite everything. And that’s something worth remembering even if there are problems with the rest of it.

Parinita: That’s true! That’s such a good point. Because that’s true even in the texts that we’ve talked about today right? For example Harry Potter.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: Or you know Lord of the Rings, Pratchett whatever. Some which we love more than others.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: For me it’s definitely Harry Potter. I’m an avowed Harry Potter fangirl. But also Pratchett. But yeah, you don’t need to toss out the whole thing because you have one problematic element. Or maybe more than one problematic element. You can still search for the good in that. Harry Potter has positively impacted so many people in the world.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: You see these examples in activism as well where they draw on Harry Potter in the way people might have drawn on religion first. They’re drawing on Harry Potter as a sort of cultural myth almost. And they’re using it to understand the world. That’s why I love fandom so much because there is room for all these different interpretations and you’re learning from each other. So in an academic text that I read, Henry Jenkins, who’s awesome – he’s one of my favourite academics. He’s a fan scholar, so he’s both a fan and a scholar. And he talks about the collective intelligence of fandom.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: Where one person doesn’t know everything. It’s impossible for one person to know everything.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: But everybody has different skills and knowledge and you’re coming together in this space around a thing that you love. And you’re drawing on your own experiences and knowledge and backgrounds and whatever. And making sense of it together.

Aditi: Yeah I think actually that’s why I like Tumblr so much ‘cause it’s really a space where that happens. People just join conversations.

Parinita: Like you were saying, you learned a lot of queer perspectives and ideas about queerness and queer ideology and things from Tumblr and fandom right?

Aditi: Yeah. Right. Because that’s just not something that – I mean I knew that queerness existed but it just wasn’t something that was really on my radar when I was reading. Just like I wouldn’t have thought that a character was non-white in a Western book, I would not have thought that a character was queer unless the writer just said it outright.

Parinita: Yeah because if you’re not a part of that marginalised group, I guess you’re not really thinking about these identities. There was another discussion about disability and neurodiversity.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: I was listening to this other podcast where they read Hermione and Luna as well as Neville I think in Harry Potter as neurodiverse. As autistic.

Aditi: Right.

Parinita: They said something which really struck a chord. That when writers are trying to write or are writing disabled characters into stories, they’re usually really rife with stereotypes. Especially if it’s someone who doesn’t have experience with disability.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: And they’ve done research but they’re using … they’ve obviously not talked to a person with a disability So it’s a stereotype. So people with these disabilities, they would rather recognise their own identities and practices and behaviours and whatever in characters that are not explicitly said to be disabled.

Aditi: Right. No actually you know that makes sense. ’Cause also I think the problem would be that a writer would be afraid of being accused of bias if they had too many flaws in a disabled character or something of that sort. So they just end up being these perfect people.

Parinita: Yeah, yeah! Or just that one thing gives them this super skill or something.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: That their disability becomes their magical power. For me, just these fandom conversations are so great. Like I was telling you, fan podcasts have become my new fandom expression.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: Because Tumblr would have sucked – although fan podcasts suck a lot of my time also. But I don’t have time for two things right now. So luckily I get to do this as a part of my research. So I’ve chosen a good project.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: Yeah I learn so much. But even within fandom, I feel like even within these conversations … we were talking about cultures earlier; I feel like there are cultures within fandom as well.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: Not just say Harry Potter would be different and Lord of the Rings would be different. But even within Harry Potter fandom for example. So initially in fanfiction and things, there’s been a lot of conversations about gender and queerness.

Aditi: Yeah

Parinita: A lot of engagement with that. But not so much with race. A few years ago I think it was called out. This became a topic of conversation then in fandom that  you know there’s this race-blindness that’s happening and people are not really talking about race. Then trans folks were also complaining about this.

Aditi: Yes.

Parinita: But now I feel like in terms of diversity, there’s a lot of conversation happening about race. But not so much about other marginalised identities. Not so much for example about disability or class or I don’t know religion I guess. I do see a few things – there were these really cool texts about Muslim students in Hogwarts and how they would celebrate Eid and how they would do the month of Ramzan.

Screenshot of Tumblr post by bertiebottsbigbean. Text says: why don't we talk about muslim kids in hogwarts during ramadan? imagine waking up at 3 every morning and walking down for suhoor, to find the house elves have prepared a feast for them. imagine the kids having an extended curfew, so they can go and eat iftar at 10, where the house elves once again provide a ten course meal, topped with dates and traditional delicacies from around the world. imagine the kids being allowed to go into the kitchens in the middle of the night if they were still in the mood to eat. imagine the kids being allowed to leave class to do their prayers, and spending lunch times to read the quran. we need to talk more about muslim kids in hogwarts

Aditi: Yeah I think you were mentioning that. And that also brings up the question of the same thing, Patil twins and Cho Chang. I mean is everyone a Christian who goes to Hogwarts? Because they seem to celebrate Christmas and Easter.

Parinita: Yeah.

Aditi: I don’t even know. Because I don’t get the impression that anyone is really overtly a believer.

Parinita: Yeah because they don’t talk about Jesus or anything. Or the birth of Christ or anything.

Aditi: Yeah so Christmas just seems to be for crackers.

Parinita: Yeah. A cultural rather than religious celebration.

Aditi: Right. So in that case there’s no reason why they can’t like you said have Diwali or something. I’m sure they’d have fun doing that too.

Parinita: How fun would Diwali sweets at Hogwarts be though?

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: Like jalebi and I don’t know I just miss Indian food a lot. I wish it was a bigger part of Hogwarts as well.

Aditi: And just think what they could do with the fireworks. [laughs]

Parinita: Yeah! Exactly.

Aditi: They don’t know what they’re missing.

Parinita: I mean maybe the animals like Fang wouldn’t have a great time during Diwali at Hogwarts but some sacrifices have to be made, I guess.

Aditi: [laughs]

Parinita: But yeah even like Eid or something.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: Just having you understand each other through your customs and rituals and celebrations without exoticising them.

Aditi: Right. Or Chinese New Year because I’m sure Cho Chang can’t be the only Chinese student there.

Parinita: Yeah! I mean I hope not. Because there seems to be one token diversity everywhere. But yeah, just different cultural, regional, national celebrations would be really good. Scottish as well. They’re in Scotland. We don’t really know anything about Celtic culture.

Aditi: Yeah.

Parinita: So I think we’re just about running out of time. But thank you so much Aditi for being on this podcast and for being a part of this project. It was so fun talking to somebody who has the same cultural contexts but also different fandoms and just bringing both our fandoms together and just geeking out about what we love and what we love to hate.

Aditi: [laughs] Thanks for having me. It’s been fun – great fun.

[Outro music]

You’ve been listening to our episode on representations of diverse cultures in fantasy media. While editing this episode, Jack showed me a great example of encountering unfamiliar food from a different culture in one of his favourite shows Star Trek. Commander Riker participates in an officer cultural exchange programme and begins to understand the Klingon culture through its food. If, like me, you’re curious about checking it out – the episode is called A Matter of Honour. If you know of any other fictional examples of different cultures interacting with each other without the Western colonial perspective, I’d love to hear them! Thanks for such a fun conversation, Aditi. And thanks for all the editing and recommendations, Jack!

[Outro music]

You can now listen to Marginally Fannish on SpotifyAppleGoogle, or SoundCloud. I’d love to hear from you and talk to you – so any feedback, comments or critiques are very welcome! Get in touch with me on social media, leave a comment on my blog, or email me at edps@leeds.ac.uk. If you’d like to follow the podcast or the PhD project, visit my website marginallyfannish.org where you’ll find both the podcast episodes and the blog. You can also receive updates on Facebook or Instagram at Marginally Fannish or on Twitter where I’m @MarginalFannish. If you enjoyed the podcast, please share it with anyone you think will enjoy it too.

Thanks for listening! Tune in again next time for all things fannish and intersectional!

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